Talk:Julius Bittner

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I have no idea why this page was flagged for notability. It seems to me that any composer who had an opera premiered at the Vienna State Opera, as Bittner did, is notable enough to be on Wikipedia. There is nothing listed under "references", but there is a listing of "literature" about the composer which it seems would fill the same function. Perhaps it is organized incorrectly. But a deletion of this article would be a travisty. Thanks Museslave (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Notability is actually determined separate from implied importance or value. You can view the notability criteria at WP:COMPOSER. When we consider notability factors, we must ensure that the criteria is supported and verified through significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. At this point, the article fails this criteria. Encyclopedic articles are written based on verifiable sources, supported through citations. A listing of literary material does not suffice in this application. If you can locate sources which can be added to the article to support notability, you have my blessing. Do not remove applicable maintenance tags until they are fully addressed according to guidelines and policy. Best regards, Cind.amuse 05:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • But they ARE addressed. I'm not quite sure why you think otherwise. I looked at the notability criteria, and Bittner qualifies hands down. Let me demonstrate this:

~First of all, you say that the "criteria is supported and verified through significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Of course the article (which I had no hand in creating or editing) does meet this criteria. The authors cite numerous independent sources, including a book by Julius Korngold--a powerful Viennese music critic of the era, German Language reference books, and a 1968 biography. If these don't qualify, what would?... ~Among the notability criteria is this: "2.Has written musical theatre of some sort (includes musicals, operas, etc) that was performed in a notable theatre that had a reasonable run as such things are judged in their particular situation and time." Well, Bittner had several operas performed at the Vienna State Opera--arguably the most prestigious opera house in the world. ~Another is this: 4.Has written a song or composition which has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers. And, as you'll note, the article lists four prizes which the composer won. So what's the deal? (talk) 11:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Oops. That was me: Museslave (talk) 11:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Quite simply, this article is not supported through verifiable references that are independent of the subject. No references; no citations. Where did you find the information with which to write this article? Failing verification, this article may be deleted. Please review the following links. WP:NOTE, WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:MOS, WP:PRIMARY, WP:CITE, and WP:COMPOSER. This should get you closer to understanding what is required when writing an encyclopedic article. Thanks, Cind.amuse 02:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, as I pointed out, I didn't write the article, so I can't say. The "literature" listed would be more than sufficient to produce an article. Had he listed them as sources, it seems that the article would be better sourced than the majority of articles on Wikipedia. Whether the author used that literature or not, I cannot say. But in your response, you don't respond to my points on notability. So can we at least remove that flag?Museslave (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I have added a reference from the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. But really, a cursory glance can tell you that this was translated from the German Wikipedia [1] (albeit not very well) and is sourced. In German "Literatur" refers to "Sources". The subject is clearly notable and I have removed the tag. There are also discussions of his work and career in multiple English language sources in addition to Grove, [2], [3], [4], [5] etc. etc. and even more in German ones. This would be a speedy keep at an AfD and anyone bringing such a nomination, without even bothering to look for sources would soon have egg on their face. Voceditenore (talk) 07:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

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