Talk:Karaganda

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Comment[edit]

The International Airport "Sary-Arka" in Karaganga, actually was build for an emergency landing in Soviet Era. First, made in USSR Shuttle "Buran". Must land there in case of any malfunctions or errors. But fortunately Buran never landed over there. After the collapse of the Soviet Empire, economical situations forced to close the project. Since then it was and is being used as a regular airport. With the slowly but surely growing economy of Kazakhstan it is being used for International flights, and the old airport had to shut down for public.

Val Pavlov.

Locative case[edit]

There is no locative case in Russian.--Dojarca (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

There is according to Locative case. It's sometimes called the "prepositional" case. in Russian it's the one you use with "в". Staecker (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Title move? (2007)[edit]

Hi Ash- I suggest that you discuss such major changes at Talk:Karaganda before you make those moves. These are big changes that shouldn't really be done without checking with other editors. Personally I agree with moving Qyzylorda, but not Karaganda. Karaganda is much more widely used than Karagandy (check google results), and wikipedia generally uses the most common English spelling (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions). Qyzyl- and Kyzyl- are about the same. Staecker 12:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Staecker. As a native kazakh speaker and Kazakhstan citizen, I can assure you that Karagandy (Қарағанды) is a direct transliteration to english. Karaganda (Караганда) is a transliteration of old name which was renamed in 1991. One letter matters. Look at the city seal at least. Its very important point, because of growing importance of Wikipedia itself. People take for granted whats written on Wikipedia. Thats why google has more results on Karaganda than Karagandy, I guess.

As example of new kazakh city names: (after 1991) Aktobe (Aktyubinsk), Oral (Uralsk), Almaty (Alma-Ata), Zhezkazgan (Dzhezkazgan) and Karagandy (Karaganda) Names in brackets are those used in Soviet Union period and were pronounced in russian way. Now, it's been 16 years since Independence and we still battle fot our own city names. Would you appreciate if I spell your name wrong? Thanks.User:Ashkazakh 13:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been battling on WP for a while to get legitimate Kazakh names on our articles. You can read a long debate about Alma-Ata vs. Almaty at Talk:Almaty. Thankfully, Almaty won out. But I don't think that the case of Karaganda is really the same- I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that its name in Kazakh was always Қарағанды, and its name in Russian was always Караганда. The name of the city hasn't changed, they've just started writing it more often in Kazakh and less often in Russian. (If the name of the city has really changed, then what is the new name in Russian?) What we're concerned with is what the name in English is.
In English we seem to use a mixture between transliterations from Kazakh and Russian. The word "Kazakh" would more directly be "Qazaq" as a transliteration- we write the first "Қ" as "k" and the second like "kh" even though in Kazakh they're the same. Instead we commonly use a transliteration from Russian. So the most "direct transliteration" isn't always the best. Besides, wouldn't the most direct be "Qaraghandy" anyway? I'd much prefer that to "Karagandy", unless you can find some good sources for that particular spelling. For instance, what does the government of Kazakhstan write it as in official English documents? That would lend some great support to one spelling or another.
Without any extra support, I think we need to go with the most commonly used version, which as far as I can tell is the current title. Staecker 23:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Several central Asian cities in particular from Kazakhstan are better known by their Russian names, yet all their wiki article titles have been changed to Kazakh names, then why is this one still holding onto the Russian one? kindly change to Karagandy. 116.71.20.163 (talk) 10:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2008[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Support. I suggest to move the article to Karagandy, which is correct transliteration from native kazakh language.Ashkazakh (talk) 15:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support The article must be renamed. BernardTom (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Staecker above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The Kazakh form Қарағанды looks more as if an accurate Roman-alphabet transcription would be Qaraghandy or Qarağandy. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Go with either Qaraghandy, transliterated from Kazakh, or stay with the traditonal English spelling via Russian, Karaganda. Karagandy" is not a transliteration of Kazakh or Russian and should not be used unless supported with extra-WP citations. — AjaxSmack 01:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And Ғ is transliterated as G, not Gh. (See Mangystau Province, Talgar, Taldykorgan, Zhezkazgan)). Ashkazakh (talk) 06:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Note. I will be moving the article to Karagandy in 3 days, if there are no other arguments.Ashkazakh (talk) 23:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2012[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. Additionally, sources that use any other variant (ie foreign language sources or those that use Qaraghandy) are not evidence supporting a move to Karagandy.Cúchullain t/c 19:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


KaragandaKaragandy – I suggest to move the article to Karagandy, which is correct transliteration from native Kazakh language. It has been long discussion and now is the time to move the page. - Relisted Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0 06:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC) Thanks, User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 05:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

  • But the sources still all use "Karaganda". —  AjaxSmack  02:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
    What do you mean by sources? Kazakh transliteration of Қарағанды is Karagandy. Karaganda is Russian transliteration. English name should be direct transliteration of the original Kazakh language. That's it. I am native Kazakh speaker, and I know better than any foreigner how it should be written. Ask any Kazakh speaker (not a Kazakhstani Russians), they will tell how it should be written properly. The same was with Chimkent (Shymkent), Taldy-Kurgan (Taldykorgan), Kokshetav (Kokshetau), Ust-Kamenogorsk (Oskemen). During soviet period, all out city names were called in Russian manner. Now as Independent country, we claim our city names back. And one of the biggest one still needing to be converted back is Karagandy. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 19:12, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
    Sources are the items in the References section. —  AjaxSmack  20:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Where is the "long discussion"? It was discussed a little bit above on this talk page 5 years ago. Has anything changed? Is there a shifting in the common spelling to use the "y"? As far as I can see the situation for better or worse remains as it was back then. Staecker (talk) 23:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
  • AjaxSmack, Staecker, I have added several sources in external links to show usage of "y". Please have a look. Also one bad link found in references. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 05:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
    Some of those are good- I think it would be better to just list them here if all you're doing is showing usage of "y". There's really no need to have 4 weather reports. "skyscrapercity" is totally useless as an EL since it's not in english. The airport is a good thing to see- I didn't know they used the "y". The US embassy is a good idea- use their search box and you'll see 6 pages using "Karagandy" and 42 using "Karaganda". I really don't see any shift in general usage... Staecker (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
    Yes, "skyscrapercity" is in Russian and even they use latin transliteration "y". It is hard to see much shift in general usage, because people rely on Wikipedia where "a" is used. Unfortunately these people go on writing articles with wrong name. However, shift of using "y" will be more obvious. See also wiki suggestion Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Always look at search results, don't just count them. It is also related to any search engines. Another biggest argument - Britannica & Columbia Encyclopedias use Qaraghandy (direct Kazakh transliteration), of course it is not exactly Karagandy, however no "a" for sure. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 07:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I totally agree with User:Ashkazakh. Many cities in Kazakhstan got their right/native spelling after gaining independence in 1991 and among them is Karagandy. Although some people might get used to former city names like Karaganda, Wikipedia as an encyclopedia should stay dynamic and refer to the legitimate and current spelling (Karagandy). Please also note that awareness of the necessity to rename some other cities in Kazakhstan growing day by day. Few years ago former officially Semipalatinsk was renamed to Semey, also in English! It is sometimes a matter of few letters. Therefore please be so kind to accept a natural and rationally suggestion to to shift Karaganda to Karagandy. Qarakesek (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
    This discussion has nothing to do with Soviet-imposed place names and spellings vs native names and spellings. Karaganda wasn't renamed after independence- the name of the city today is exactly the same as its name during the USSR. What's being discussed is the English transliteration of the name, which has traditionally been Karaganda. If you think "Karagandy" is more common or somehow officially favored, you need to demonstrate it. Staecker (talk) 22:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
    You are right. The city wasn't renamed, but the transcription was modified. It is a fact that the least letter was changed(a->y at the end). This was a decision of Karagandy city parlament on 22.11.2000. Qarakesek (talk) 08:32, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
    Do you have a reference for that? This kind of thing would absolutely convince me. Staecker (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Please also refer to how other former Soviet countries got their city names from Russian into their national language after USSR collapse 1991:
    Ukraine: Lviv (not Lvov), Kharkiv (not Kharkov), Luhansk (not Lugansk), Ternopil (not Ternopol), Chernihiv (not Chernogov).
    Latvia: Liepāja (not Liepaya), Jelgava (not Yelgava or Elgava).
    Uzbekistan Guliston (not Gulistan), Xorazm Province (not Khorezm Province)
    These were just few examples. Further can be expanded to hundreds. Let's see our situation in Kazakhstan: Shymkent (not Chimkent), Taldykorgan (not Taldy-Kurgan), Almaty (not Alma-Ata), Oskemen (not Ust-Kamenogorsk), Semey (not Semipalatinsk), Aktobe (not Aktyubinsk), Oral (not Uralsk), Shu (not Chu), Petropavl (not Petropavlovsk). It means only one city is not consistent with the rest, which is KARAGANDY. Please respect our right to have own names first. (User talk:Ashkazakh) 11:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
    You are still talking about cities which changed their names. We rightfully use the new names of all these cities. (I've even fought at Talk:Almaty against people who somehow still want to call it Alma-Ata.) Karaganda never changed its name. Staecker (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
    Unfortunately I could not find a reference in English on changing the city transcription by the city parlament. This is due to the fact that in 2000 Internet was not widely spread in Kazakhstan. But if you could understand Russian or put the text into translator, you can read a newspaper article from 21.12.2000 where clearly stated that the city name transcription was changed. Please note "Караганды" in the original text stands for Karagandy, whereas the google translator still translates the word per default as Karaganda. Qarakesek (talk) 06:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    I don't read Russian but I tried- the change seems to be the official spelling when writing in Russian. Am I right? We are talking about the English transliteration, which does not seem to have been officially discussed at all. If there is no official move to use a particular English spelling, then we should use the one which is used most often in English, which is clearly with the "a". Staecker (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    Your argument is not reasonable. There will be no official discussion about English translation, because Kazakhstan has only two languages: Kazakh as state and Russian as official. RoK does not discuss, regulate, or amend anything related to English language. Our other city names are transliterated from Kazakh normally here on Wikipedia, except for Karaganda. Karaganda is inconsistent. Staecker, thank you for helping with Almaty (Alma-Ata). We are discussing here the same issue Karagandy (Karaganda). I hope you can understand(User talk:Ashkazakh) 15:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep at Karaganda. Wikipedia's naming convention is to use the name that is most commonly used in English. I understand that the official name of the city in Kazakh is "Қарағанды" and that its correct Romanization is "Karagandy", but it is completely irrelevant for this discussion. What is relevant is that in English the city is still commonly known as "Karaganda" – which, for historical reasons, happens to be the Romanization of the Russian name. I know this may hurt the patriotic feelings of Kazakh-speaking Kazakhs, but even the parliament of Kazakhstan cannot decree a change in the English language. Compare Kiev, which is similarly still commonly known in English by its Russian name rather than the Ukrainian "Kyyiv". — Kpalion(talk) 15:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    Actually the parliament of Kazahstan could decree a change in the English language. But they haven't. Staecker (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    Kiev is not relevant case. Besides that Kiev is way more popular in English speaking world, compared to Karagandy. That is why it is hard to change from Kiev to Kyyiv. Karagandy is regional city, and should be compared to regional cities. Please, see examples of Ukrainian cities above. Also, Parliament of Kazakhstan does not deal with anything related to English, simply because Kazakhstan is not an English speaking country. (User:Ashkazakh) 06:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Let's make things organized. Here all the points to support moving:

1. 'Karagandy' is correct transliteration from Kazakh language. And it is the last Kazakhstani city which name is inconsistent in naming with other Kazakhstani cities in Wikipedia.
2. Britannica & Columbia Encyclopedias use 'Qaraghandy' (direct Kazakh transliteration), closer to 'y' and not to 'a' for sure.
3. The region where the city is located is Karagandy Province.
4. The famous football club is called FC Shakhter Karagandy. Also at: uefa.com, shahter.kz, transfermarkt.co.uk
5. External links related to name 'Karagandy':

Airport: www.karagandy.aero, routesonline.com, rome2rio.com, airfreightasia.com, acukwik.com
Maps: Google Maps, Yahoo maps
Travel Guides & Info: www.world66.com, visitkazakhstan.kz, www.worldplaces.net , db-city.com, worldcities.us
Weather Forecasts: www.accuweather.com, forecast.co.uk, weather-forecast.com, gismeteo.com, mirbig.net, weather24.com, fallinggrain.com, foreca.com
Local time: timehall.com, thetimenow.com, horlogeparlante.com, web-calendar.org
Skycraper city: [http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?s=0c759dcaf4d2ce313f345f7a69371c48&t=501719 www.skyscrapercity.com]
(User talk:Ashkazakh) 07:43, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.