Talk:Karl Marx

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Good article Karl Marx has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Real Name[edit]

Chaim Hirschel Mordechai, why is this not inserted after his penname? [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.173.163 (talk) 22:55, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

"Karl Marx" was his real name. The article on Heinrich Marx explains when and how "Mordechai" became "Marx". Haploidavey (talk) 23:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this appropriate?[edit]

Right in the first paragraph I found this gem: "Marx's work in economics laid the basis for much of the current understanding of labour and its relation to capital, and subsequent economic thought"

Really?? That is extremely biased. Marx was responsible for disastrously planned economies that brought famine and death for everyone, especially the workers. Should that be removed, or at least, nuanced? Not a creative person (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

From the beginning of the article it comes across as biased for Marxism, and I know I'm not alone in feeling this.(50.53.126.144 (talk) 02:28, 5 March 2016 (UTC))
The statement is backed by several reliable sources. One of these is a leader of the Liberal Democrats, writing in a Conservative newspaper; hardly a source likely to be biased in favour of Marxism. RolandR (talk) 12:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Ask a sociologist, because it's true.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 17:36, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Socialist states vs communist states characterization[edit]

Neonorange, could you please give more explanation for this edit? If the change I made was counter to consensus, I'd like to see some evidence of that, thanks. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The caption before your insertion Map of countries that declared themselves to be socialist states under the Marxist–Leninist or Maoist definition—- between 1979 and 1983. This period marked the greatest territorial extent of Socialist states. is correct. I've underlined the key phrase. This wording, as I restored it, has the advantage of being factually correct and WP:NPOV. You can find the most recent discussion in the tp archives from the last year or so, if I remember correctly. It's probably come up multiple times since this article first appeared in Wikipedia in 2001. The easiest ways to search are by a key word or phrase in the tp archives or a binary search through the article history for content changes. The have been, as you might guess, edit wars and heated discussions here in the past fifteen years; the only way forward is as it always is in Wikipedia—work for a neutral point of view.
(I changed the section title to be more useful. — Neonorange (talk) 03:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
This: The text did not say these states were socialist, but that they self-described as socialist. Rather than be pedantic, we then refer to them as socialist states. In the same way when writing about U.S. conservatives we would explain that they self-describe as conservatives, explain why some/most sources reject the description, then call them conservatives in the article. TFD (talk) 9:16 pm, 6 June 2014, Friday (1 year, 10 months, 26 days ago) (UTC−4) is the key statement that ended an edit war—a slightly different location, and, in this case, an editor was insisting that the Soviet Union was capitalist. — Neonorange (talk) 03:35, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
In case there is some confusion about this, what happened was not that I decided to change "socialist" to "communist" in the belief that the latter was the correct wording, but that an IP editor changed "communist", which was the existing text, to "socialist" without any explanation, and I reverted the change, which is what I usually do when I come across such unexplained changes of meaning. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Changes Reverted[edit]

My changes to the article were recently reverted (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&oldid=prev&diff=733164062). I was told to reach consensus for such small changes on the talk page, so I am writing to see if all others agree that changing the word "profound" to "large", adding "in part", changing "reduce it to" to "only consider", "interesting and perplexing" to nuanced", and changing the tense of a sentence, whether that is worthy of a revert or if they are okay and purposeful changes. DoomLexus (talk) 21:17, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Why do you want these changes to be made? They should only be made if that language is more representative of the sources, not because of any personal opinions you may have of Marx's work. – FenixFeather (talk)(Contribs) 21:48, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
(ec)Please explain the changes you wish to make; don't simply assume that they are obviously acceptable. RolandR (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I want these changes made because they get rid of the connotative meanings of the words (interesting and complex have a pro-marxist connotation, as does the word profound). The "in part" edit I'm fine with not adding, it was just a further clarification. For transparency, because you mentioned my personal opinion, I am a Marxist, but the encyclopedia should not use words like "profound" when describing the impact, it should do so impartially, even if I do agree that it is profound. DoomLexus (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC) -- Accidently left out word 'not' DoomLexus (talk) 22:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I can see why you would think the language is less than impartial. I would still double check the language in the sources. @RolandR: You mentioned that discussions on this language had occurred before? – FenixFeather (talk)(Contribs) 23:10, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
As far as I have looked and have access to the sources, my changes follow the literature base. In particular, 'profound' has no basis, the word is never used to describe Marx's ideas, except on one particular person. DoomLexus (talk) 23:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I think "in part" is unnecessary but the rest of the changes seem fine to me. "Profound" doesn't seem that bad, but "most interesting and perplexing" does feel a little weird. – FenixFeather (talk)(Contribs) 22:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)