Talk:Karl Plagge

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Is it certain that he was a Nazi Party member? I know that the BBC article [1] calls him a Nazi, but I took that as a generic usage. My understanding is that regular German military (as opposed to the SS) weren't supposed to be party members. There were exceptions, but this guy doesn't seem like he would be one. -- Randy 14:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The author of the book, The Search For Major Plagge was on C-SPAN over the weekend. He said Major Plagge did indeed join the Nazi Party in (I think) 1931. He joined because of the Nazis' economic message, but was disillusioned long before the war.

May 24 additions[edit]

Thanks for today’s additions. I had a little trouble working in the details about the extermination of Lithuania’s Jews, though, because it seemed to be a veer off topic—this article is about Plagge, so focusing too much on peripheral details, however important from other perspectives, is slightly confusing. I eventually settled on breaking that material off into a second paragraph, since it does supply context for the body text.

Schwartzberg: Plagge's significance (historically) is vis-a-vis the extermination of jews in Vilnius.

There is one parenthetic whose significance I don’t understand, and I’ve marked it with the “vague” tag. If you could elucidate what you intend to convey with it, I will try to work that content into the text in an unintrusive manner.

Schwartzberg: will do latter also in reference to your comments below.

The above aside, there is still the issue of attribution. Could you please provide page—line sources for the newly added material? That would greatly enhance the credibility of the article. Thanks, and best regards, Jim_Lockhart 02:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

To Schwartzberg: Thanks for adding to your previous material. I think I now understand what you meant about Jews surviving as a proportion of population, but I’m still not 100% sure. With all due respect, please read my changes carefully before making any alterations—I believe they reflect the intent of the content you added:

  • Where I have changed extermination to any other word, I have done so because it was inappropriate as used, not because it was loaded.

Schwartzberg: they were exterminated. Killed is too vague.

  • Please check the number of Plagge Jews that the SS managed to murder in the end—over 1,000 seems too high given the other numbers mentioned (1,200 in total, death rate of 80% = 960 killed), so either the “over 1,000” number or the other numbers are off.

Schwartzberg: Excellent critique, will do.

  • Please cite sources for your new material, especially dates and numbers.

Schwartzberg: OK - i think this is mainly Plagges letters (especially the one where he uses Camus), and his denazification file which is online, and his military correspondance which is also available online. Generally: my contribution is based only on the evidence.

  • One of the web sites linked to in the references section brought up a “no number under that product” message, which is why I deleted the link.
  • References are generally presented in bulleted lists in Wikipedia, not enumerated lists. Please don’t revert the bullets.

Thanks and best regards, Jim_Lockhart 08:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Karl Plagge-Cause of Death[edit]

I have not been able to confirm the cause of Karl Plagge's death. In my correspondance with Hans Madsen (Plagge's stepson) he refers to Plagge complaining of headaches in his diary during the final year of his life: "Anke has kept her and Karl’s notebooks from 1944 on and most of their correspondence. In Karl’s I see very often remarks concerning “headache” and Anke told me that a lot of tablets were found in his room at the Hessenwerke after his death. Karl died in his bed- Anke tried to cool his front with a wet washrag and he whispered “Anke, Lass!” and he was gone."

I had interpreted this to mean that perhaps he had a brain tumor, but that is quite speculative. Unless one can find a death certificate, I do not know of any good source for this information.

Best Regards, Michaeldg (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)Michael Good

Fair enough. As long as there is no definite proof as to the cause of death, better keep it neutral. Cheers. Ekki01 (talk) 08:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The article on Plagge at lists his cause of death as a brain tumor.

However, I would not necessarily use this because that same article lists the month of his death as July while here a specific date is given in June.

Lastly, in my trying to justify my correction of Major Plagge's birth-date, I have come across the fact that there is a 238 page book on his life called, "The Search for Major Plagge: The Nazi Who Saved Jews, Expanded Edition."

It's published by Fordham University Press and in the 13 reviews on "Amazon" it seems to be highly regarded.

I've obviously not read this book but it would seem to clear up some of the points raised here in the "talk" page. Satchmo Sings (talk) 03:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Removed Military Service box[edit]

While it is true that Karl Plagge served in both the First and Second World Wars under the German flag, he was in fact a pacifist and profoundly troubled by the militaristic actions of his nation from 1939-45. He was horrified when he realized in 1938 that Hitler intended to start a second, expansionistic world war and certainly did not volunteer for service in the Wehrmacht. He was against the war, served unwillingly and did what he could to undermine the criminal enterprises that his nation had undertaken. He would be horrified to be portrayed as a proud military veteran of the Nazi regime (I am referring specifically to the section of the box that states "allegiance" and shows the swastika flag and is labeled "Nazi Germany". Thus, I have removed the military service box, which does tend to portray him in such a light.

Here are some quotes from Plagge's testimony at his denazification trial in 1947 which I believe supports my view:

"I did not volunteer for this war and did not want to prolong the conflict by spurring my labor to produce the needed resources with even greater efficiency...I think the reason for the closing of the motor vehicle repair park had to do with the fact that my regiment commander acccused me of being too soft in the treatment of my workers."

"The war and the sad development of the national-socialist system destroyed an ideal in myself and even before the end of this terrible war I was deeply embittered towards all the people who deceived and tricked me, those who were responsible for the whole misery and hardship of the war. That was the reason why, in 1945, I tried to prevent all bloodshed and destruction and led my whole division into American captivity."

Karl Plagge's Birthdate[edit]

In the opening of this article, Karl Plagge's birthdate is listed as "orange 21, 1918."

(Can someone PUH-LEEZE explain to me what does lower case "orange" mean in regards to a birth-date?)

In the Wikipedia article on "July 10" Plagge's birdate is listed as July 10, 1897.

Also, the article makes reference to his being a World War One veteran; this date of birth would make him less than a month old at the time of the Armistice on November 11th.

Since the article on him claims him to be a WWI vet, and the picture of him in a uniform of The Third Reich appears to be that of a middle-aged man and not someone in his 20s, I would therefore assume, coupled with the lower case "orange" for the listed birth-month, that the birth-date on the Wikipedia "July 10" page would be the correct one.

That said, I've found his birth YEAR but not the date, on a page at "Holocaust Survivors and Remembrance Network."

I had also found his exact birth-date on another page, however that was merely a re-hash of this article, or vice-versa so I felt the need to go elsewhere.

Also, I need the help of other "Wikipedians" in that I do need your help in learning how to contact other members; I'm but a middle-aged person and regarding so much of this "digital stuff" I need your help! Satchmo Sings (talk) 02:40, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

You did the right thing. People usually don't have their birthdays change so it seemed like an unsourced revision. Looking into the history more, the last edit before yours was anonymous and it was inaccurate and that user has been warned. Thank you and sorry for the hassle. - Stillwaterising (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

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