Talk:House of Kastrioti

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Mati[edit]

The castriota family is from mati and the castle of scanderbeg in his origin is in mati named stellush —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.29 (talk) 17:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

They are not from "Mati" but from Emathia, as Barletti said. Emathia was the Macedonia. Macedonia was including Albania in certain periods and according to some medieval authors, but since Barletti said that "he came from Emathia" he obviously meaned that he was not from Albania. This is in agreement with the non-albanian-nationalistic view that Castriotis were a Byzantine family of mixed Greek-Slavian cultural background. This explains very well the double-eagle. Of course they were orthodox as their connections with the Athos Monasteries indicates.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.9.175 (talkcontribs) 20:43, 10 June 2011

Only dos who are non familiar with a worlds history as are the serbians and turkogreeks, In Albanian history as the world proves it,no such name as some turkoserbs or turkogreeks talking crap.Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeus mother vas not voislava but Voisav,The brothers ans sisters name are not slavic names,as all we know all slavic names are stolen from albanians,hungarians,romanians,turkish names.Gjergj Kastrioti has no brother with a name stanisha,raposh,kostadin,jela,mara,jela,angjelina,vlajka,mamica, their right names are, stanish.reposh,konstandin,jola,mara,engjelin,vllaika,memic.All with a catholic 100% albanian names,serbians try to adopt st.angelina as a slavic serbian,She was born a catholic,she died in hungary as a catholic in a catholic church, and she is in our catholic albanian churches as shejtorja engjelina,(st.angelina), Gjergj Kastrioti son never maried serbitch, when the Kastriotis ruled,serbs was no in balkan.He married Irena Nimani the doughter of Dardanian family with a 100% Albanian blood Lazer Nimani, Sister Mara was married to Shtjefan i Dukles, Vllaika was married to Shtefan Ballshaj(Ballshaj family still today you find in albania and kosova as albanian catholics),Gjergj Kastriotis father did not donate any church to the slavics,He did not die in chilandar nor he is buried in chilandar.Gjon Kastrioti the gr.father of Gjergj Kastrioti fight in Dardania to liberate Dardania from ottomans,He lost his life,and his body was buried in Diber Albania,where his kingdom start.

== CMT ==

Please consider this: FACTS ABOUT KASTRIOT:

-Kastriot's mother was VOJSAVA, a Serbian princess from Polog valley in todays Macedonia, and his brothers and sisters were Stanisha, Reposh, Kostadin and Jela, Mara, Angjelina, Vlajka, Mamica - ALL SLAVIC, NON-ALBANIAN, NAMES. - His ONLY SON married Serb Irina Brankovic, daughter of Lazar Despot of Serbia. - His sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, and other sister Vlajka was married to Stefan Balshic - His sister in law Angelina (sister of his wife) was married to Stefan Brankovic, and she become a saint in Serbian orthodox church because of all that Serbian monasteries in Vojvodina she was founder - His father donated Serbian orthodox monastery Chilandar, and he is buried there. - His brother Reposh was monk in Serbian monastery Chilandar and he was buried there 1431. - His chief army quartermaster was Vladan Djurica, also a Serb

http://www.topix.net/forum/world/albania/T6MTE8K0891KQ1Q7A/p38 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranbo60 (talkcontribs) 22:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you are mistaking slavic cultural influence and the orthodox religion with ethnicity, having slavic sounding names is not uncommon in Albania, for exemple during communist times many Albanians were named Vladimir because of Lenin, just like during Ottoman times many Albanians took muslim names, if someone in future will se the names of Ahmed Zogu, Enver Hoxha or Ismail Qemaili they will think they are Turks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.130.128 (talk) 21:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Greek speakers?[edit]

In 1395 the Castle of Croya was transferred from the Venetian Marco Barbarigo to a Constantine, ancestor of the Castriotis family. According to J.G. von Hahn this Constantine was Skanderbeg's grandfather, and according to Karl Hopf was his uncle. The Greek historian Margaritis G. Dimitsas has published a Venetian document related to the negotiations between Venice and this Constantine for the transfer of the Croya Castle. This is a part of the document: "Mittatus nuncius qui sciat linguam graecam ad Constantinum, qui accepit Castrum Croye de potestate Marco Barbarigo, qui ipsum nostro nomine possidebat, ad procurandum, ui restituat hoc Castrum Venetis, pro securitate Durachii et districtis." That is, a messenger who speaks Greek is sent to Constantine, to accept the Castle of Croya ... Constantine is not refered as "Castriotis" in this document, leading the author (Dimitsas) to assume that he got the name Castriotis ("from the Castle") after the Croya Castle. This is published in the "On the origins and nationality of Georgius Castriotis Skenderbey", Athens 1877, p. 169. In Greek language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.190.66.75 (talk) 20:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

family members[edit]

of all those family members only hamza doesn't have slavic name and you dare to call kastrioti albanians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.13.86.194 (talk) 07:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Κάστρο[edit]

Κάστρο (see: Kastrioti) is the Greek form of the latinised word castrum --Albanianboyd (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Coat of Arms[edit]

Unresolved

MissMJ, the graphist: "neither of these images should be used in articles until a reliable blazon for this thing can be found.". This copy from an Armorial shows another CoA. Past discussions about the CoA are Here and here. We need to clarify this. --Zoupan 15:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

When I click to the link of Armorial image there is a facebook symbol. What is actual source for this image?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
A facebook link to an unidentified fictional work? That being said the Kastrioti family in Italy had various coats of arms, but the main coat of arms of the family in Albania was red and black:
  1. A facebook link was not the only point of Zoupan's comment. He maybe can present its real source.
  2. The sources you brought here can not be considered as reliable sources for this very important claim.
    1. The American Scholar (magazine) - the quarterly literary magazine of the Phi Beta Kappa Society
    2. A non-scholarly work written by Howard Clark who is not specialized in history but in peace studies
    3. The third source says there are historical records about Kruje being Skanderbeg's ancestral home. As far as I know, none of Skanderbeg's ancestors lived in Kruje. Am I wrong?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Kastrioti family's COA have been recorded in the various armories based on Barleti's description, which are clear on the red background and the black double-headed eagle. Frasheri confirms this, however I'm curious to know whether this source is Rietstap himself or someone else. Mesfushor (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

  1. Barleti forged many historical documents. Without interpretation by secondary source Barleti can not be used as reliable source. Do you agree?
  2. Historians from Albania are not suitable secondary sources for interpretation of Barleti's work because Albanian historiography took everything Barleti wrote as true (including his forgeries), without critical research of his work, although it has been proven that Barleti forged many historical documents to match his interpretation of events. Do you want me to bring sources for this claim or you agree with me here?
  3. If this drawing presents Frasheri's view on Kastrioti family crest, then it is obvious that the problem exists. The drawing presented in the article does not even match Frasheri's interpretation of Barleti's work. Nevertheless, it would be useful for this discussion to see a quote from Barleti's work, if it is possible?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The Black double-headed eagle with red background was the Crnojevic CoA, is there any connection there perhaps? Here is a totally different version of Castriota CoA according to FAMIGLIE NOBILI DI VENEZIA, Black eagle with yellow background, and this page about Scanderbeg clearly states that Skanderbeg's CoA was yellow with a black eagle (there are several CoA's here). As Antidiskrimator's #3 speaks for itself, the CoA could be with a white/black eagle, with/o crowns, 6-p-star/none & blue triangle, yellow/red bg, etc. I have uploaded the Korenić-Neorić Armorial version to Commons. --Zoupan 13:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

@Antid.
  1. Please don't call Barleti a forger. He may have been incorrect in some dates and certain assumptions, that doesn't mean that he was forging something. Your experience to AGF in wikipedia, may also be extended to 15th century writers.
  2. Please don't call all the historians from Albania "not suitable". You are taking too much responsibility with this assumption and are defamating an entire nation as unable to produce their own historians. I happen to have at home Gjin Varfi's book, who is a heraldist, and has not followed Barleti, but Rietstap and his Armoire General. Varfi's COA is red and black.
  3. I will have to consult Frasheri's images on that, but you will agree with me that that's a seal, whereas we are talking about the Coat of Arms, which was in colors. Seals didn't have colors in metal in the 15th century, and neither in most of the cases of the 21st century. I think there is a quote of Barleti's work in Frasheri in Latin, so I may reproduce that as well.
@Zoupan:
The first link you provided shows a coat of Arms that I had never seen. What website is it and how reliable is it? The second website has the background in yellow, but, again, who is behind the website and why should we think that it is reliable? Mesfushor (talk) 13:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
The first link is from Biblioteca Casanatense, and the manuscript dates to the 16th century, from Venice. The second one is from an Italian site, but I don't know the source for this one, yet. The Korenić-Neorić Armorial from 1595 illustrates the CoA with a yellow background and black eagle. Are there any other known Armorials from the 16th century which include the Kastrioti Coa?--Zoupan 14:04, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
  1. Marin Barleti forged medieval documents to match his interpretations of events.
  2. Robert Elsie, famous Albanophile, emphasizes that there was no reliable and objective historiography in Albania.Elsie, Robert (2010), Historical dictionary of Albania, Lanham: Scarecrow Press, p. xi, ISBN 9780810873803, OCLC 454375231, retrieved 4 February 2012, because there is still no objective and reliable historiography in Albania  More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help). I did not say that. I only said that Albanian historiopgraphy is not suitable for interpretation of Barleti's work.
  3. I never mentioned the colors when I presented a link to the seal. I of course know that seals don't have colors. I referred to the shape of the eagle.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) So we have an inaccurate Coat of Arms. The colours are obviously undetermined. Scanderbeg's seal bearing the family crest does in no way look like the Coat of Arms done by the Graphics Lab. I say remove the image from all Wikipedia articles until consensus. --Zoupan 08:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That is something already emphasized by MissMJ :"neither of these images should be used in articles until a reliable blazon for this thing can be found.". I agree with her and support your proposal (regardless of the authenticity of the Skanderbeg's seal which has not been proven).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)When the image was created no sources were discussed, but they do support this version i.e. please stick to them. Enough said.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)
@ZjarriRrethues:
  1. your comments very often seem unnecessarily harsh. Please try to follow wp:civility policy and "resolve differences of opinion through civil discussion; disagree without being disagreeable."
  2. will you please present sources which contain reliable blazon for the version of COA inserted in this article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
The sources have been presented above and since you are claiming that it wasn't red and black or in any case similar to the patterns and colours of the current CoA please bring your sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
"Civil Resistance in Kosovo" is hardly a reliable source for the Coat of Arms, and which source does "The Flag bulletin" use? The Korenić-Neorić CoA (1595) seems to be the oldest CoA which depicts an eagle (?), and the Venetian armorial from the 16th century has a whole other design. If the currently used CoA is an improvisation, it should be noted. From where does the design of the Graphic labs eagle come from? Why is there so many "unofficial" CoA's with yellow background? How many armorials include a Kastrioti CoA? I've uploaded the Venetian armorial and Fojnica armorial (which is a black eagle on red background). --Zoupan 12:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

@ZjarriRrethues:
  • The sources you "presented above" are nonreliable sources which don't even contain reliable blazon for the version of COA in question.
  • According to WP:VERIFIABILITY policy:"It must be possible to attribute all information in Wikipedia to reliable, published sources that are appropriate for the content in question." Version of COA added to this article does not meet this request and should be removed from all articles until a reliable blazon for this thing can be found.".
  • Can you please provide a diff which supports your statement that I claimed "that it wasn't red and black"?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Take any such issues to RSN (I don't see how a paper presented in the International Congress of Vexillology can be unreliable though). That being said these pages don't deal with CoA the descendants in Italy may have had and please don't use primary sources and your theories about them. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Only after you (or anybody else) present some source which actually contains reliable blazon for the version of COA inserted in this article I can decide if I want to take it to RSN. I am sorry if I am wrong, but I really did not see any source which contain a blazon which supports the current version of COA. If I am wrong, please provide a quote of such blazon.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)I presented reliable sources on the subject, so take them to RSN. Such discussion require reliable secondary sources not OR interpretations of images.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Whether the sources you presented are reliable or not is irrelevant because they don't contain a blazon which supports the current version of the Coat of Arms of Kastrioti family. If you (or anybody else) can't present appropriate sources (besided quarterly literary magazine of the Phi Beta Kappa Society, a non-scholarly work written by Howard Clark who specialized in peace studies or source which claims that Kruje was Skanderbeg's ancestral home) then there is a very serious problem with sourcing of this version of Kastrioti family COA.
Additionally, only Phi Beta Kappa Society source refers to Kastrioti family while other sources you presented refer only to Skanderbeg. Therefore you can not support your claim that this is CoA of Kastrioti family with this source.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Antidiskriminator is right. None of the presented sources clarify the blazon. I repeat, none. The only thing needed is a source clarifying the blazon. It would be best if we find a heraldic source which corresponds to the Graphic labs version, then nothing should be altered or removed, and I would respect the current design.--Zoupan 16:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Kastrioti D'azur, à l'aigle impériale d'or, acc. en chef d'une étoile du même.
  • Kastrioti D'or, à l'aigle impériale de sable, acc. en chef d'une étoile d'azur chargée d'une étoile d'or.
  • Kastrioti d'Albanie D'azur, à une aigle de sable, au vol abaissé, couronnée d'or, acc. en pointe d'un sabre posé en fasce tourné à gauche et duquel pend une croix à huit pointes d'argent chargée d'un écusson rond à la croix de (gueules ?).
These are Rietstap's descriptions, taken from euraldic.com.--Zoupan 17:01, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) Les erreurs contenues dans l'armorial ne sont pas corrigées, le site n'ayant pas vocation à valider ou rectifier les noms ou les armes.---— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Castriot family[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) "It is generally advisable to use the most common form of the name used in reliable sources in English...".

The most common name used for most notable members of this family is Castriot (i.e. George Castriot and John Castriot).

In sources on English language the most common form used for the name of this family is Castriot:

The title of this article should be changed to Castriot family. Does anybody have anything against it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:56, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Less than 10 21st century results and less than 100 sources after 1920 i.e. no common use in reliable sources, not to mention that even those results may be unreliable as you searched without double marks and many of the results have nothing to do with the medieval Albanian family as their content indicates.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk
I searched without double marks both Castriot and Kastriot form. Many of the results of Kastriot form have nothing to do with the family indeed because they refer to the placename.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2012 (UTC)