Talk:Kazimir Malevich

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Untitled[edit]

To User:Down on the corner: can you clarify why you removed the comments regarding powerty and prosecution? The comments you removed appear factually correct. Gene s 11:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

IRWIN[edit]

Would it be appropriate to add a "See also" linking to IRWIN for their 1992 homage Black Square on Red Square? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

IRWIN[edit]

Would it be appropriate to add a "See also" link to IRWIN for their 1992 homage Black Square on Red Square? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Please do not add trivial stuff to Malevich's quotation, whoever it is since 16 February 2006. paula clare 15:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

link-IRWIN added paula clare 20:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC) I think the picture for "White on White" is upside down. Should this page include information about the heirs suit that they won against the Stedelijk museum? It was the basis for that recent sale at Sothebys ($60m)

The image for "White on White" is indeed upside down. Is it possible to edit this? Heterodiamond (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are right — it may be upside down. I find this here. Bus stop (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Malevich: was he ever sent to the gulag? My professor said this recently but I can't find any independent verification of this.

  • No, he was not. He died to early: two years before the Great Purge. Before this they had to have at least some reasons to arrest people. Alex Bakharev 07:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalizm[edit]

Someone made serious vandal-edits to this page. I have reverted those and returned the text to it's original, but please, keep aneye on it. Esspecialy on the History, the vandal edits might be small edits which dont look insulting but on purpous misswrite the facts of his biography. 132.66.160.171 05:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Black Square Date[edit]

When was Black Square actually painted? The article contradicts itself, saying both 1915 and 1913, but this lapse is fair given that he resigned his work. 211.28.246.119 (talk) 05:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Malevich painted at least four versions of Black Square beetween 1915 to the early 1930s.[1] Klassikkomies (talk) 20:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The first version was painted in 1915 and is exposed at Tretyakov gallery. So the picture in the article is totally wrong, check out the article in Russian: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%91%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.152.3 (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Re-direct[edit]

I don't know how to create a re-direct, but could someone do for this article for Malewicz and Kazimierz Malewicz, as right now they just lead to the search page. Podagrycznik (talk) 18:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Nationality[edit]

Sorry, but do you guys know that "Russian Empire" and "Soviet Union" is not a nationality, right? This is citizenship. And the most strange for me was to see that "he was russian" and his native languages were "polish and russian". And no ukrainian. Really? Was born in Kyiv in 1878, all early live lived in ukrainian villages and ukrainian wasn't native language, but russian was? Is there some sources of this (again no offence, but this is very strange)?

For my points here's one of his autobiographic notes (yeah, written in ukrainian, strange isn't), where he descibes himself as ukrainian:

original: “…Це був Лев Квачевський. Він був студентом пейзажного класу Академії мистецтв у Петербурзі. День у день ходили ми з ним на етюди влітку, навесні і зимою, верстов по тридцять за день. Цілу дорогу сперечалися. Припиняли суперечку тільки тоді, коли сідали полуднювати. Згадували Україну. Він та я були українці.”

translation: "... This was Lev Kvachevsky. He was student of landscape class of Petersbug's arts academy. From day to day we walked with him to etudes in summer, spring and winter, for about 30 kilometers a day. Whole road we argued. We stopped arguing only when were going for dinner. Remembered Ukraine. He and me were ukrainians".

And Ukrainian is real nationality, not citizenship like "Russian Empire" or "Soviet Union", which is completely stupid. So, will this be fixed somehow? Thx. Sandric (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


Kiev was within the Russian Empire in 1879. Although artcyclopedia calls him Ukrainian, Malevich is Russian according to Oxford Art Online, britannica.com, Getty Union List of Artist Names, MoMA website and publications, Guggenheim website, Art Institute of Chicago website, Penguin Concise Dictionary of Art History, and Dictionary of 20th Century Art. Ewulp (talk) 04:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows sources. See WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Ty 20:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you think that being within Russian Empire means all people in this empire were russian then, well, you wrong, it consisted of different nationalities. Just like today's Russia consists of Russians, Chechens, Tatars and other nationalities. Yeah, there were Poles in Russia Empire, and Ukrainians, what you saying is citizenship, and not nationality. Totally different notions. Point that Malevich was ukrainian (at least described himself as ukrainian in ukrainian languge) upper. Please, stop making those strange assumptions about russian empire means russian nationality. Malevich can be or Polish (by father, mother is as I know not known nationality, but from Poltava, which is Ukraine), or ukrainian, because he described himself as one. But russian - very unlikely, and I need to see some proof of that. Sandric (talk) 00:39, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


People, I'm new to wiki so pardon if i'm not doing it in the right way. The following

Ukrainian: Казимир Северинович Малевич [kazɪˈmɪr sɛwɛˈrɪnɔwɪtʃ mɑˈlɛwɪtʃ]

Is plain wrong. Both spelling and transcription are Russian not Ukrainian. It is spelled and pronounced completely different in Ukrainian. I changed it to Russian a few times but someone is reverting the change. Therefore I'm doing it once again and asking an ethnical Ukrainian to add Ukrainain spelling to the entry if it is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.236.136 (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

  • The spelling Казимир Северинович Малевич is used on Ukrainian Wiki and in a few Ukrainian-language sources there. I assumed people there know Ukrainian language. I have restored lang-uk here. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
  • [kazɪˈmɪr sɛwɛˈrɪnɔwɪtʃ mɑˈlɛwɪtʃ] is undoubtedly the Ukrainian pronunciation, see WP:IPA for Ukrainian. Although, maybe it would make more sense to move it to Wiktionary. The same applies to the Belarusian and German names as well. --Glebchik (talk) 05:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
  • As ethnical Ukrainian I can confirm that it is Ukrainian spelling and transcription.

WP:DUE and WP:POV[edit]

I believe that the recent edits by UAKasper violate the WP:DUE and WP:POV rules by pushing an insignificant Ukrainian POV in the lede calling Malevich a Ukrainian painter and using Ukrainian sources such as an article in the Ukrainian weekly Den′ and an article authored by a Ukrainian scholar Myroslava M. Mudrak in The Ukrainian Weekly. Independent reliable authoritative sources free from bias such such Britannica, The Columbia Encyclopedia and many others from all over the world identify him as a Russian painter. So I believe we should write what the latter sources, which are a vast majority, say, rather than to use a narrow bias from the press in the lede. --glossologist (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

[born] 23 February 1879, previously 1878: see below[edit]

Obviously, some sort of further explanation is needed, but (as far as I can see) there is none. --FoxyOrange (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Belarusian or Polish ethnicity[edit]

It looks like we have a new edit war over whether Malevich was a Belarusian or a Pole. The conflict is more difficult due to that the notion of a Belarusian ethnicity separate from Polish or Russian was not very popular at the time of Malevich birth. Roman-Catholic people born in modern Belarus would be considered Poles and Eastern Orthodox people would be considered Russian or perhaps Lithuanians. At the end of Malevich's life the notion of Belarusian ethnicity was very strong and at the time of the Great Terror might mean the difference between life and death (ethnic Poles were one of the main targets of the Great Terror).

Now we have a very solid source stating that Malevich's parents were Poles. We do not know whether the source meant it in the modern sense or in the 19th century sense (that would include ethnic Belarusians and Ukrainians). We cannot alter the words source and change Poles into Belarusians - it will be an original research. On the other hand we have also a pretty reliable source stating that Malevich himself identified as a Belarusian. We do not know whether it meant that Malevich's parents self-identified themselves as Belarusian, whether he was just felt inclination to Belarusian people or whether he secretly consider himself as a Pole but stated otherwise to hide from persecutions. We do not know. We still cannot ignore a notable source about his self-identification. Lets incorporate the info from both sources as much as possible. Any additional information will be appreciated.

Now my proposal:

  • In the lead link Russian to Russian Empire so not to create impressions that we claim he is an ethnic Russian. Remove "of Belarusian origin" as this is controversial and anyway we usually not put ethinicity in the lead.
  • In the Early life section use both sources, lets the reader be informed.
  • In the categories add applicable Russian, Belarusian, Polish, Ukrainian categories. they are not exclusive.

Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

This is fine except for one problem: this claim of Belarusian identity is supported only by sources that cannot be checked by English-speaking readers. Malevich has been the subject of quite a bit of writing by reputable historians. Is there any reliable source in English that supports the claim? Ewulp (talk) 04:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear Ewulp, you appear to completely luck the necessary knowledge of the region and sensibility for the issues of national identity in multinational empires. Please, before you try to intervene and correct anything written on the issue, read "The Reconstruction of Nations" by Timothy Snyder, it should be a good introduction for you. You may also read a major book of your choice from Nationalism Studies (Hobsbawm, Brubaker, Anthony D. Smith etc.). Than procede to the books on Ethnic history and problems of identity. You may also find useful to improve general methodological preparation (such as learn to distinguish between primary and secondary sources) and learn the languages of the region (Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian - I know all of them) in order to be able to read the primary sources. Kiryl, PhD in Cultural History — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.226.175 (talk) 11:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

An earnest search for sources supporting the Belarusian origin turned up nothing; instead here's Serge Fauchereau, Malevich, Rizzoli, 1993: "It is significant that Kasimir Severinovich Malevich should have been born of Polish descent in Kiev in the Ukraine in 1878. After the division of Poland in the eighteenth century, many Polish families were left stranded in Russia and the Ukraine, outside the new border which had been redrawn. This explains why the artist, who had been brought up in the Polish language, whether for amusement or for reasons of diplomacy, liked to present himself as a Pole and write his name in the Roman alphabet..." (p. 7). Another souce, Kazimir Malevich, 1878-1935, Armand Hammer Museum of Art and Cultural Centre in association with the University of Washington Press, 1990, states: "Both parents are of Polish descent" (p. 5). Troels Andersen writes in "Malevich, Kazimir" at Oxford Art Online: "His father was of Polish origin and worked in the sugar factories in Belopolye, but in 1896 the family moved to the Russian provincial town of Kursk..." Aleksandra Shatskikh and Marian Schwartz, in Black Square: Malevich and the Origin of Suprematism, 2012, have this: "The odd construction of this sentence ... arose because of a linguistic confusion between Russian and Malevich's native Polish. In his first language, zapomniceć means "to forget," and it sounds like Russian zapomniť—which, however, means "to remember"; on the other hand, the Polish for "remember," zapamentać, sounds like the Russian for "forget," zapamiatovať. It was characteristic of Malevich to confuse these words ...Therefore the native Pole's sentence beginning "If you remembered my curtain" in fact meant: "If you have forgotten my curtain..." (p. 51) Ewulp (talk) 03:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, the reference provided by our IP contributor looks solid, but it needs to be validated. If after 1 week no validation of the reference I think the corresponding sentences should be removed from the article Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Verification of Belarusian self-identity[edit]

I was trying to validate Belarusian selfidentification of Malevich but could not find any even marginally reliable sources by web/book searches (and searches in my home library). We certainly need to validate the sources cited. I am currently reside in Australia and it is difficult for me to access Родословие и предки К. С. Малевича // Малевич о себе. Современники о Малевиче. Авторы-составители И. А. Вакар, Т. Н. Михиенко. Т. 1. Москва, 2004. С. 372—385; and other book sources printed in Moscow and Belarus. Still I am a native Russian speaker and I guess I could validate the source and translate it into English. There are also plenty of Russian and Belarusian speaking wikipedians to help us with translation.

Whoever have access to book sources used, please scan them and send to abakharev@gmail.com (that is me) or put it somewhere on the web and give us the link. Web sources may also be useful. If the sources will not be validated in a week I think we should remove the info. Meanwhile I removed word mistakenly - no sources for that.

BTW what is wrong with Polish and Russian been Malevich's native languages? The info is sources and was not challenged, I am to restore irAlex Bakharev (talk) 23:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Validation of the sources regarding Belarusian self-identification of Malevich were not provided in two weeks. I have to comment the relevant sentence out. Please do not re-insert it unless you can validate the paper source (or provide reliable online source or easily accessible English-language sources) Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

"Casimir"[edit]

This article seems to avoid mentioning that he has been often known in English under the spelling "Casimir"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2014 (UTC)