Talk:Scorpion II

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Historical basis of movie[edit]

There's a claim in the article that The Scorpion King movie was loosely based on this person. I didn't see the TV special that was cited, nor could I find any such claim on the film's website. Since the movie appears entirely unrelated to anything in history at first glance, is there another source for this claim? Otherwise I'll be removing it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Scorpion I"[edit]

I reverted the recent addition of Scorpion I to the intro. I was unaware at the time that some theorize that there were two predynastic King Scorpions -- the impression I had was that the Abydos tomb was that of the Scorpion of the macehead, not that there were two Scorpions -- but this article is about the one depicted on the macehead, and according to most sources this is Scorpion II, not I. I wonder if someone more up-to-date on the subject than I am knows if this is definite enough to put in the intro? TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This is definitly Scorpion II, not I, assuming that there are two. It is believed that Narmer would have had to have been the next king immediatly after Scorpion, so the other references to a different scorpion must go before him. Thanatosimii 15:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The graffito and U-j tomb are currently associated with Scorpion I who ruled from Thinis/Abydos 150-200 years before this Nekhen Scorpion. The documentary cited is dated, it does not even mention the possibility of two Scorpions until the postscript. --Countakeshi 03:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Serket II[edit]

The corrected title makes more sense. Some people know Thutmose as Thutmosis; same here. Respect the Scorpion! (Sorry -- last sentence a bad joke.) George "Skrooball" Reeves 07:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
We do not know that scorpion was pronounced srqt. It has no phonetic signs to help and is one of the oldest hieroglyphics extant, thus transliteration is questionable. Thutmose and Thutmosis are different becuase of strange greek idiosyncrecies, and we know for a fact it to be better as Thutmose, though Djhutymes is still better yet. However, we do not know even the consonants behind Scorpion for an undisputed fact. Thanatosimii 04:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
See my post at your user talk page. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Serket IIKing Scorpion

"King Scorpion" is the established name. Serket itself is a problematic transliteration because the sign does not read,
s r
q t

but rather reads the scorpion sign outright with a single idiogram stroke. Thus, experts take issue with making it read srqt, or Serket. The problems that this has raised in interpretation are explained in length in the Cambridge ancient history. Certain scholars would prefer to read the scorpion sign as Sekhen. We simply cannot know.

Therefore, Scorpion's name is almost invariably left as scorpion. Shaw's Oxford History of Ancient Egypt leaves it as Scorpion, Grimal's history leaves it as Scorpion, Gardiner leaves it as scorpion, and a plethora of other works on the predynastic from the days of Petrie and Emery all the way to Spencer's history. There seems to be some dispute as to what is the proper name on Wikipedia, but there seems to be no such dispute among scholarship. Thanatosimii 17:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Thanatosimii 17:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
Support as per my comments Thanatosimii 17:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- I can't ever remember one other page on this Wiki using the English translation of an Egyptian name. This page, sad to say, would stick out like a sore thumb if you reverted it. Just my $0.02. George "Skrooball" Reeves 21:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Then we get to change the rest of them. Wikipedia is not a reliable source unto itself. There is no such person as a king Serket II in academic literature. There is a King Scorpion. (edit) sorry, I misunderstood you. There are no other pages on wikipedia that use tranlations of Egyptian's names because we do know their names. Amenhotep reads imnhtp. Thutmose reads Dwtms. Ramses reads R'mssw. Senusret reads snwsrt. However, Scorpion doesn't read Srqt. It doesn't have any alphabetic symbols going with it, and could concievably be any myriad of possible different names. Thanatosimii 23:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Support. I have never seen this king referred to as anything other than "Scorpion" in the literature. In fact, most of the predynastic kings before Narmer are identified by their ideograms in the vernacular, so we speak of "Double Falcon", "Lion", "Elephant" See xoomer.alice.it/francescoraf/hesyra/dynasty00.htm. Iry-Hor and Ka are exceptions to this, but Scorpion is not. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Support per Thanatosimii & TCC. - Evv 15:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Support per Thanatosimii & TCC. I understand Skrooball's opinion and tend to agree with it for the same reason we don't call Narmer "Catfish chisel" according to the glyphs in his name, and yet all of the literature on the subject I have seen prefers "Scorpion". Were there a convincing argument for a better "Egyptian-ized" form of the name I would opt for that, but Thanatosimii has summarized the current academic state of affairs regarding this pharaoh. Captmondo 11:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments:
There is a Serket I listed on this Wikia, thereby nullifying your argument. QOD George "Skrooball" Reeves 02:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
All that proves is that there are two pages that need moving. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Scrooball, I went through every book in my college library which might refer to this guy, and I found zero references to a Serket II, let alone for a Serket I. King Scorpion after King Scorpion after Scorpion after Scorpion. Do you have as much as one reason to disregard the unanimous decision of egyptology at large? Thanatosimii 02:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Per the consensus here, I've moved the page. Martinp23 17:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Serqet[edit]

Thanatosimii, is there actually a source that has this, or is it just a remnant of Skrooball's unusual usage? If the former, why don't we just cut it entirely? TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 May 2013[edit]

Per the old discussion about moving the page, "Selk" should be removed from the lede unless there's a reliable source for it. It seems to have been added by an anon editor about 2 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=King_Scorpion&diff=425766795&oldid=422220582 Nearly all online sources appear to be either mirrors of this article, or have referenced it. If reliable sources do not use this name for this king, Wikipedia ought not either. 192.31.106.36 (talk) 00:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

My search results were similar to yours, the term is not sourced, or further explained in the article. Just to add to the confusion, the disambiguation page at Selk says it is a term used for Isis. I can't find anything to support that, either. I'm removing it from here for now, since it's unsourced, and challenged. Anyone who has a source can re-add it. Begoontalk 01:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I looked into this and managed to find a handful of sources that do indeed read king Scorpion's name as "Selk". here is the search I did. Regards, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm... some of those obviously are mirrored or copied from here, but this one: [1] is from 1961, and this from 1964. I reinserted it with the 2nd one as a cite. Thanks, Til. Begoontalk 01:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I meant to say only the top one is mirrored... the other 21 are a bit older than wikipedia, though some are in French! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, the first search I did turned up lots of references confirming that Selk / scorpion was considered an epithet of the pagan goddess Isis. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I think we fixed Selk too, now - should have just waited for more discussion in the first place - my bad. Face-smile.svg Begoontalk 02:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Very minor edit request on 10 Jan 2014 - Under the Mesopotamian influences under king Scorpion II section, the fourth sentence in, shouldn't "intensive" instead be "intensively" as isn't it an adverb in that sentence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.21.198 (talk) 03:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 31 October 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved by Anthony Appleyard. Jenks24 (talk) 09:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)



King ScorpionScorpion II – King should be avoided as its a title -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 06:54, 31 October 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 10:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

  • But we must distinguish from the many other scorpions that have been mentioned here. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I'd propose something simple like "Scorpion II", without any redirect. My literature doesn't even know terms such as "king scorpion" or "scorpion king" and alike. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Support. The current title is confusing since Scorpion I is more notable than Scorpion II, if in fact there was a Scorpion II. They are often referred together as "the Scorpion kings." Separating them may suggest that this period is better documented than is in fact the case. "It is not necessary to postulate the existence of two Scorpion kings: The only King Scorpion whose name is in the serekh is separated from Narmer by several kings (among them Iry-Hor, Crocodile?, Ka)" (The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, 2001, p. 423). "Without foundation, [some] have reconstructed the illegible signs in front of the ruler's face as the rosette and scorpion and postulate that it belongs to a ruler of that name." (p. 258) Tasty love salad (talk) 02:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Per the research by Tasty love salad - and thanks for doing this Tls. The move does have to be performed properly and not through a cut and paste as was tried last week. Also there does need to be a redirect - to the Scorpion King DAB page would probably be best - due to the fact that - like it or not - the films have put the term "Scorpion King" and/or "King Scorpion" in peoples minds. MarnetteD|Talk 15:41, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, "King Scorpion" is an unscientific name as it could refer to Scorpion I as well and is never used in the relevant litterature. In addition people might get confused with the (terrible) film "Scorpion King". Just move the whole thing. P.S Nephiliskos I am done with Sheshi (at least until the GA review starts) so I will start editing the article soon. Iry-Hor (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Maybe the "King Scorpion" lemma could be inserted in the lead if someone finds out that it's in use in news media or publications intended for a wide audience. (Nice to hear someone who reminded me of the ruler called Crocodile, I would love to read more of him but his article does not exist yet). Khruner (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.