Talk:Kingdom of Commagene

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Comments[edit]

Photo[edit]

The eagle on the pillar is NOT a part of the grave sanctuary of Antiochos on Mount Nemrud; it is situated in Karakus. So either change the photo, or change the accompanying text... The are some errors in the text on the Nemrud monument as well, I might correct them if I can find the time.

Move[edit]

The following discussion is of a move from Kommagene

Support: English usage is clear and almost invariable. (Nominator vote) Septentrionalis 18:04, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Support — the spelling with C is in general use and standard; a spelling in K is used with the mistaken idea that it is more 'authentic'. Gareth Hughes 23:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support — Commagene is also even the Latin name. Also, no reason not to keep this as a redirect. Satyadasa 09:28, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I expect to keep the redirect, which would be automagically created by the move; getting rid of it would be a separate process at WP:RfD, and I'm not going to make that nomination. Septentrionalis 16:45, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


Edit[edit]

Most of the stuff in this article was a mess/unverifiable so I cleaned up and removed irrelevan content.Hetoum I 05:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

Why not to merge this small article into the larger article of Kingdom of Commagene (or vice versa)? Ellipi (talk) 11:08, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

So-called Armenian origin[edit]

although the origin of Kingdom was not clear but it is believed to Greek or Persian.193.140.194.102 (talk) 21:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Bring some sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.70.55.213 (talk) 12:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

You wrote some history books but you didn't understand and did not ask "is it true?" or "what is historical chronology". Did you see Commagene ancient ruins or Mt. Nemrut - Kahta or any statue of Commagene? I can say a lot of about Commagene because I'm a tourist guide in Turkey. 1- Kahta Mt. Nemrut's up side, that is a masonry stone tomb (tumulus) build in BC 80-60, you can see god-goddess statues in east terrace. That statue's back side have a inscription with two language: Parsian and Greek... Not letter or word in Commagene statue with Armenian, alphabet or word.. 2- BC 160-60 period, a lot of Armenian family make small feudal lord in west & south Caucasia. A lot of lord's name Mithridates, Tigran, Orontes / Oronthes, Vagran, Pharnes, etc... Those are not Armenian names. Many of the names of Armenian origin comes from Part languages. So, if the kings name Mithridates (in Parthian mean "light, sun" like Armenian) you cant say Armenia or Parthia. You must check control "what is the royality and citizens language?" Part Pontos Kingdom (BC 201-60 free, BC 60 AD 60 Roman Vassal) royal writing language is Greek, citizens use a lot of (may be 12-13 different) language. 3- If Mithridates mean is same in Parthia and Armenia, you must check control linguistic rules. In Akhemenid - Persian period, BC550, Armenian vassal kingdom build in this period (look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire). Word ethymological time, come before Urartu Kingdom period BC 858, King Arame. This kingdoms origin is Assyrian kingdoms - period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu). So Mithridates is not a Armenian word. Anatolia heritage (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Very misleading map and too many links to Armenia[edit]

Surely this article is about the "Kingdom of Commagene", not Armenia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.202.82 (talk) 13:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Article hijacked by Armeno-centrists! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.209.78.54 (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I used to believe that its ruling elite had Iranian roots but today I saw myself that at least one serious source (Cambridge Ancient History, see respective citation) insists on the Armenian identity.--Dipa1965 (talk) 21:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I see that the anonymous nationalist ip does not care about references. Perhaps some kind of semi-protection is needed due to this constant edit warring.--Dipa1965 (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Article protected[edit]

This article has been protected from editing for three days to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution (WP:DR). Mark Arsten (talk) 15:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Trying to resolve the dispute on the Armenian identity of the Commagene kingdom[edit]

Following the suggestion given by the admin in the section above, and although I am very new to this article, I will try to explain what is happening now and suggest some means to stop this useless edit war:

  • At least one reliable (see WP:Reliable Sources) source (The Cambridge History of Iran, The Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanian Periods, Cambridge University Press, 1983, ISBN 052120092X, see article's Notes where a link to Google Books is provided) states that the kingdom was an Armenian one
  • Some anonymous ip editors revert any Armenian element in the article, including names, categories and the reliable source mentioned above. These editors so far have not brought any reliable source that supports a non-Armenian origin. These edits are speedily reverted
  • There was at least one opinion (see discussion above) that the origin of Commagene identity was Iranian or Greek. This claim was not accompanied by reliable sources

Deniers of the Armenian origin of Commagene are perfectly justified to add any kind of properly referenced "non-armenian" view. Keep in mind that "properly referenced" means that, among else, these views must not be marginal ones. Additionally, since the contrasting view (i.e. the Armenian origin theory) is properly referenced, no one is justified to remove it. Two or more contrasting views can perfectly co-exist in an article. In the end, it's only a matter of sources.--Dipa1965 (talk) 21:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I can find sources that talk about Commagene's Hellenistic and Persian heritage, its more remote Neo-Hittite roots, and above all its Syrian connections. I haven't found anything that says "PS: Commagene was not Armenian". Yarshater (1983), one of the sources claimed to show that Commagene was Armenian, also talks about its culture being commonly termed "Parthian" but in any case Iranian (p. 841). Yarshater goes on to talk about the Achaemenid origins of the royal family, Antiochos Theos' sanctuary to syncretic Greek-Persian deities at Nemrut Dagh, etc. Nothing particularly Armenian that I see so far. Now, Commagene was tributary to Tigranes I for about twenty years, but this wouldn't make the kingdom itself Armenian, any more than we would describe the principality of Wallachia as Turkish even though it was under Ottoman suzerainty. Q·L·1968 22:57, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Once again, I don't think we should read more into secondary sources than they actually say. Here's the source that's supposed to substantiate the characterization of the Commagene as an Armenian kingdom:
Now, what does this amount to? The ruling family of Commagene was partly of Armenian descent, though it also made much of its descent from the Achaemenids (and from Alexander, which Lang doesn't mention in this quote). And Commagene was formerly an Armenian satellite kingdom. Nobody disputes that, but it was only in the Armenian orbit for a few decades; at other times, it was also a Roman satellite kingdom, a Roman province, a Syro-Hittite state (Kummuh), a Persian possession, etc. Elsewhere Lang describes Commagene, along with Sophene, as "buffer states between Parthia and Armenia on the one hand, Syria and Rome on the other" (p. 510), which seems balanced and apt. Lang also juxtaposes the ruling family's "strong dynastic links with the Armenian Orontid house" with the kingdom's character as "great centres of Hellenistic and then of Roman art and civilization" (p. 510). Seeing Commagene from a primarily Armenian prism seems really misleading to me. Q·L·1968 17:43, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
  1. ^ Cambridge Histories Online http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/histories/ The Cambridge History of Iran Edited by E. Yarshater Book DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/CHOL9780521200929 Online ISBN: 9781139054942 Hardback ISBN: 9780521200929 Chapter 12 - IRAN, ARMENIA AND GEORGIA pp. 505-536 Chapter DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/CHOL9780521200929.016 Cambridge University Press By: David M. Lang Chapter DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/CHOL9780521200929.016 The Cambridge History of Iran Volume 3: The Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanid Periods, Part 1 Edited by: E. Yarshater Publisher: Cambridge University Press Online Publication Date: March 2008 Print Publication Year: 1983
Having heard no objection, I've incorporated the above information into the article, along with additional gleanings from Commagene by Blömer and Winter, while cutting some of the more unbalanced items that so many editors have objected to down the years. Q·L·1968 20:50, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Commagene Kingdom is not part of Armenia Kingdom[edit]

You wrote some history books but you didn't understand and did not ask "is it true?" or "what is historical chronology". Did you see Commagene ancient ruins or Mt. Nemrut - Kahta or any statue of Commagene? I can say a lot of about Commagene because I'm a tourist guide in Turkey. 1- Kahta Mt. Nemrut's up side, that is a masonry stone tomb (tumulus) build in BC 80-60, you can see god-goddess statues in east terrace. That statue's back side have a inscription with two language: Parsian and Greek... Not letter or word in Commagene statue with Armenian, alphabet or word.. 2- BC 160-60 period, a lot of Armenian family make small feudal lord in west & south Caucasia. A lot of lord's name Mithridates, Tigran, Orontes / Oronthes, Vagran, Pharnes, etc... Those are not Armenian names. Many of the names of Armenian origin comes from Part languages. So, if the kings name Mithridates (in Parthian mean "light, sun" like Armenian) you cant say Armenia or Parthia. You must check control "what is the royality and citizens language?" Part Pontos Kingdom (BC 201-60 free, BC 60 AD 60 Roman Vassal) royal writing language is Greek, citizens use a lot of (may be 12-13 different) language. 3- If Mithridates mean is same in Parthia and Armenia, you must check control linguistic rules. In Akhemenid - Persian period, BC550, Armenian vassal kingdom build in this period (look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire). Word ethymological time, come before Urartu Kingdom period BC 858, King Arame. This kingdoms origin is Assyrian kingdoms - period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu). So Mithridates is not a Armenian word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.247.145.120 (talk) 12:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

History of Armenia template[edit]

This whole talk page is testament to how controversial it is to consider Commagene only or even primarily as part of the Armenian cultural sphere. Bear in mind, the scope of the article is the Kingdom of Commagene, i.e. second century BCE to first century CE. To be sure, Armenians settled in large numbers in this area afterwards. It's also true that the Kingdom of Armenia briefly exercised political hegemony here, and that the Commagenian royal house had dynastic links with that kingdom (which the article already states). But I can't find a shred of (reliable, independent) evidence that the Kingdom of Commagene defined itself as Armenian, or even ascribed much importance to its Armenian connections. To the contrary, Antiochos Theos clearly foregrounded the Persian and Hellenistic roots of his ancestors. The language most spoken during this period is not known for certain, but Syriac is a fair guess. Given how relatively marginal Commagene was to Armenia and vice versa, I really think this article has put undue weight on the Armenian connection. The {{History of Armenia}} template, which an anonymous user has been repeatedly reinserting, completely crowds out the right side of the article, creating unnecessary and misleading clutter, while displacing image files that are relevant to the subject matter. I'd love to find a compromise here, and I'm open to suggestions. I note that the article already displays the template {{Historical regions of Armenia}} at the bottom.

For the record (and I shouldn't have to say this), I have no axe to grind either for or against Armenia or Armenians. I'm not Armenian (or Turkish or Kurdish). On the other hand, I spent a great deal of effort during my four years in Istanbul trying to convince Turks that the Armenian genocide was both real and bad. However, this article is not about that, or about possible Armenian territorial claims in reparation for the genocide. It's about the history of a small kingdom in Antiquity that was at the crossroads of Hellenistic, Persian, Armenian, Syrian, and Roman cultures. Q·L·1968 16:22, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I see I've been reverted again. Now, look how nice and compact {{History of Greater Iran}} looks on the article Seleucid Empire and tell me I don't have a point. Q·L·1968 16:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Having come up with a more compact way of displaying the template that doesn't get in the way but is expandable, I've been reverted by the anonymous user with the message: "Your reason is weak, you just want to remove the Armenian history of commagene which includes historic site in modern turkey". No. That's not my reason. See above. Q·L·1968 17:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't had any luck getting the anonymous contributor to engage with me on this talk page. Still, in an effort to avoid edit warring, I've asked for a third opinion. Q·L·1968 18:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Third Opinion[edit]

A third opinion has been requested. A third opinion is a reply to discussion by two editors on a talk page. Since only the registered editor and not the unregistered editor has discussed, a third opinion is not applicable. It appears that both editors are over 3RR, but, rather than reporting edit-warring, I have requested semi-protection to force the unregistered editor to discuss. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:57, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Okay, so it looks like semi-protection is now in force. Should I change the template back to the way I had it the last time (which I actually think would be an admirable compromise) in order to, as you say, "force the unregistered editor to discuss"? I'm checking first to be sure that this wouldn't be seen as aggressive/unhelpful. Q·L·1968 16:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
There have been no edits in two days, so that putting the template back would not be edit-warring. Putting the template back, since the unregistered editor cannot revert, would force the unregistered editor to discuss. (Well, they could go to WP:ANI, but should look out for the boomerang.) Go ahead. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Great; thank you! For the record, I've been arguing against having the template on the grounds of undue weight (and clutter); however, making it small and collapsible seems like a sensible via media. Q·L·1968 16:35, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

More reverting[edit]

Well, I guess semi-protection must have expired, because my latest edit (with its compromise proposal) has been anonymously reverted again. This time the message is: "this article is the one you are removing the template when the link is in the menu , that is not the reason you said about cluttered". I find this message puzzling for more reasons than its grammar. I'll attempt to reply, however: Yes, it's the same {{History of Armenia}} template, but this time in a conveniently collapsible box so that by default it doesn't dominate so much of the right side of the article. Does that make sense? Readers interested in Armenian history can open it and follow whatever links they want. Other readers can still look at the rest of the material without clutter or inconvenience. I think this sort of compromise should satisfy everybody, but please let me know if you have a constructive alternative. Q·L·1968 18:18, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Another reversion, this time with the message "no, you are specifically targeting this page template removal for your false history agenda". Since the anonymous user evidently knows more about my motivations than I do, I won't comment beyond saying that s/he has not produced any reason why the current arrangement is in any way unsatisfactory. Q·L·1968 19:17, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm at least happy to see that the latest round of pro- and anti-Armenian mutual reversion hasn't done any excessive violence to the layout of the page, since there is now enough text (thanks to my expansion of it while the page was semi-protected) to accommodate a number of floats. Q·L·1968 04:10, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Cultural identity?[edit]

I'm starting to feel like we ought to have a section in the article about Commagene's cultural identity, where we can talk about its Armenian connections, Hellenistic high culture, Syrian affinities, relationship with Persia and Parthia, neo-Hittite background, etc. (with all of the qualifications, disclaimers, and nuances that the subject requires). I'm getting to think that trying to sum this up in a quick categorical phrase in the lede has helped contribute to some of the disquietude felt in various quarters on this subject. Q·L·1968 04:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

'History of' templates[edit]

Do the {{History of Iran}} and {{History of Armenia}} templates really contribute much to this article? On the one hand, there is at least enough space for these now (thanks to my expanding the article somewhat), so I can't complain too much about clutter. However, in both cases, the templates themselves advertise a series of articles to which the kingdom of Commagene is at best peripheral. I think I'll substitute {{History of Greater Iran}} as being more directly relevant than {{History of Iran}}, but even this hardly seems ideal. Q·L·1968 22:35, 27 June 2016 (UTC)