Talk:Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross

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First pictures of KC w/ Diamonds didn't load for me[edit]

Everything looked fine, can others view? Historian932 (talk) 04:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Grandcross.jpg[edit]

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Delete this please[edit]

"meaning a no-win-situation e.g. taking the CO's daughter out to a prom or having dinner with an inspecting general." not funny...89.35.62.12 (talk) 05:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

under the same general idea, vandalism in the first section's heading reads "wikipedia is evil they are fascist oppresors of free thought long live produde94". i dont know what the original heading was so i wont delete it just yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.134.51 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


points[edit]

...and Luftwaffe pilots could qualify for accumulating 20 "points" [with one point being awarded for shooting down a single-engine plane, two points for a twin-engine plane, and three for a four-engine plane, with all points being doubled at night].

Hallo, my name ist Rainer and i am from Germany. The information in the artice about the system of points is not correct. The german Luftwaffe developed a system of points because of the american combat boxes of B-17-airplanes. Ordinarily a german figther could not shot down a B-17 by the first attack. After the first attack - both the german figther and the B-17 or B-24-bomber were damaged. The damaged german fighter returned to his airport ( or craches ) and the B-17 felt out of the formation. The next german fighter attacked the damaged bomber and achieves an aerial victory. Some german fighter pilot says this was an injustice. The first fighter-pilot was the hero, because he attacks the whole formation of bombers but he recieves nothing. The second fighter pilot who has waited behind the combat box for shooting down damaged bombers achieves an aerial victory. Because of this injustice a system of points was developed.

  • 3 points for shooting down a bomber at the first attack ( bomber must have been flown in the combat box )
  • 2 points for attacking a bomber which was damaged by this attack and fell out of combat box because of this attack, this was called "Herausschuss"
  • 1 point for shooting down a damaged bomber, which flew behind an combat-box


There was no connection between the number of the engines and the number of the points.


Excuse please, my English is not perfect.

Viele Grüsse Rainer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.0.78 (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Overly detailed article[edit]

I was going to drop the

on this article as it really does have a lot of very detailed information that may not be overly useful for the general reader. However, I thought I'd ask for the opinions of others first. Londonclanger (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Military Slang[edit]

Some remarks from a native German: "In the military slang of the German soldiers the Knight's Cross is often referred to as the Blechkrawatte (tin-necktie)" - Tin (German: Zinn) isn't even remotely related to the German word "Blech". A proper translation of Blech would be "sheet" as in metal sheet. "Blech" is barely ever used to describe non-metal sheets in german. Alternatively "plate" might be a decent translation as well. Tin just doesn't fit at all.

"Glory-hungry soldiers seeking this medal (which was worn conspicuously around the neck or throat) were seen as suffering from Halsschmerzen: a cynical slang-term play on the word meaning "afflicted with throat trouble", having a "neck rash", "itching neck" or "sore throat"." - Halsschmerzen is the most common term to describe a sore throat in German. It's neither a cynical nor is it a slang-term or a play of words.

That put aside It sounds at least plausible the term "Halsschmerzen" has been used in this context. "Hals" describes the entirety of the body section in-between head and torso including the insides(like the throat, "Rachen" in german) and outsides. Perhaps as a result of this we often refer to "Nackenschmerzen" (pain in the rear section of the neck) as "Halsschmerzen". "Nacken" unlike the english neck usually only refers to the rear segment of the neck. On a side note we've got the term "Kehle" for the front section of the neck (though that term is also used as a synonym of "Rachen" as well). "Hals" is sort of the joker term, because it can be used to describe the entire body section.

Iron Cross[edit]

This material on the Iron Cross appears to be too detailed for this article; moving here for storage:

  • Initially, the Iron Cross award was of a temporary nature and could only be made when the country was in a state of war. A formal renewal procedure was required every time the award was to be presented.[1] The renewal date, relating to the year of re-institution, therefore appears on the lower obverse arm of the Iron Cross. The Iron Cross was renewed twice after the Napoleonic Wars and prior to World War II. Its first renewal on 19 July 1870 was related to the Franco-Prussian War and its second renewal came on 5 August 1914, with the outbreak of World War I. The 1914 Iron Cross remained a Prussian decoration but could be awarded in the name of the Kaiser (as the King of Prussia) to members of all the German states' armies and of the Kaiserliche Marine (Imperial Navy). The regulation was extended and from 16 March 1915 the award could also be presented to individuals in the military forces of allies of the German state. During this period the Iron Cross was only awarded in three grades; the Iron Cross 2nd Class, Iron Cross 1st Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross leaving a large gap between grades. There was no nationwide decoration placed between the Iron Cross 2nd and 1st Class, which could be awarded to soldiers of all ranks, and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, which was awarded only to senior commanders for winning a major battle or campaign. This gap was partly filled by awards given from the Empire's member states. Among the best known of these awards are the Prussian Order Pour le Mérite and House Order of Hohenzollern, which could only be awarded to officers. For non-commissioned officers and soldiers the Prussian Golden Military Merit Cross was the highest achievable decoration. With the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II at the end of World War I the awards granted by the various royal households became obsolete.[2]

References

  1. ^ Schaulen 2003, p. 5.
  2. ^ Williamson 2004, p. 3.

K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Enactments[edit]

Moving here for storage:

Oak Leaves

Swords

Diamonds



K.e.coffman (talk) 23:32, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Dimensions[edit]

Moving here for storage as excessive intricate detail:

Oak Leaves

Gebrüder Godet & Co.
Type
Dimensions Material
Height Width Weight
Type 1—"L/50" 19.1 mm (0.75 in) 20.1 mm (0.79 in) 6.7 g (0.24 oz) Silver 900
Type 2—"21" 19.2 mm (0.76 in) 20.0 mm (0.79 in) 6.9 g (0.24 oz) Silver 900

Diamonds

Manufacturer Dimensions Construction
Height Width Weight Material Stone
Gebrüder Godet & Co. 30.1 mm (1.19 in) 19.9 mm (0.78 in) 9.3 g (0.33 oz) Silver Diamonds
Otto Klein A-piece 32.2 mm (1.27 in) 22.4 mm (0.88 in) 14.4 g (0.51 oz) Platinum Diamonds
B-piece 33.3 mm (1.31 in) 22.5 mm (0.89 in) 9.0 g (0.32 oz) Silver Rhinestone


K.e.coffman (talk) 23:36, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Recipients material from main page[edit]

Relocating here as I consider this to be undue opinions by AKCR and intricate detail:

Circle frame.svg

Distribution by service

  Heer, 4786 (65.4%)
  Kriegsmarine, 318 (4.3%)
  Luftwaffe, 1759 (24.0%)
  Waffen-SS, 458 (6.3%)

The Association of Knight's Cross Recipients (AKCR) names 7,321 recipients of the Knight's Cross in the three military branches of the Wehrmacht (Heer (Army), Kriegsmarine (Navy) and Luftwaffe), the Waffen-SS, the Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD) and the Volkssturm.[1] The AKCR also lists 43 individuals from non-German Axis forces for a total of 7,364 recipients of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.[2] 13 Swords recipients do not meet the formal awarding criteria of the Knight's Cross. Twenty-four recipients of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves are also lacking sustainable evidence that their listing is justifiable. Otto Weidinger, Günther-Eberhardt Wisliceny, Sylvester Stadler and Wilhelm Bittrich received the Swords from SS Obergruppenführer Josef Dietrich, who was not legally authorized to present the award.

References

  1. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, pp. 113–460, 485–488, 499, 501, 503, 509
  2. ^ Fellgiebel 2000, pp. 461–463, 510

Opinions welcome. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:04, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Military slang[edit]

In the military slang of the German soldiers the Knight's Cross is often referred to as the Blechkrawatte (tin-necktie). Glory-hungry soldiers seeking this medal (which was worn conspicuously around the neck or throat) were seen as suffering from Halsschmerzen: a cynical slang-term play on the word meaning "afflicted with throat trouble", having a "neck rash", "itching neck" or "sore throat". (Navy slang: Draufgänger: a U-boat commander who was viewed as a "daredevil" seeking to earn the Knight's Cross by being too aggressive in endangering his own submarine and crew in pursuit of enemy ships. Different degrees of the Iron Cross were awarded based upon the number and/or tonnage of enemy ships sunk.) The term Ritterkreuz-Auftrag ("Knight's Cross Mission") referred to a mission that was extremely dangerous, or a no-win situation.[citation needed]

Moving here as uncited since June. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:14, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Historical context[edit]

I’ve been copy editing this article for concision (which I believe to have been an improvement). However, I feel that the article could be enhanced with the addition of contemporary German language sources. The subject of the Knight’s Cross and its recipients has apparently not been studied by English-speaking historians, and the current article is devoid of historical context, which is a missed opportunity, IMO. For example, here are some questions I had while looking into the subject of KC recipients on Wikipedia:

  1. why was the rate of the KC awards increasing exponentially as the war progressed? (the rate of Oak Leaves wer doubling every year, for example)
  2. what role did the propaganda imperatives play in who was nominated / awarded?
  3. did the rate of awards correlate in any way with the units’ combat performance?
  4. how were KC recipients viewed in the Bundeswehr—did this fact impede or advance their careers?
  5. how did hagiographic literature on highly decorated German soldiers came about — who writes it, who publishes it, who consumes it; etc.?

I find awards of the totalitarian regimes to be an important topic, so I feel this could be a fascinating article, vs its current, phaleristics-only focus. Ping @Assayer: to see if there may be an interest in contributing. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2016 (UTC)