Talk:Kosovo

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According to CIA Factbook, Population[edit]

Ethnic groups: Albanians 92%, other (Serb, Bosniak, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Ashkali, Egyptian) 8% (2008) [3] --12:45, 27 November 2011

Kosovo's third official language\[edit]

Kosovo's third official language is English. On the page only Albanian and Serbian is shown as official language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memedhe (talkcontribs) 20:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have an official source for this? Bazonka (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Article 5 of the constitution: "The official languages in the Republic of Kosovo are Albanian and Serbian." bobrayner (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
And bullet 2: "2. Turkish, Bosnian and Roma languages have the status of official languages at the municipal level or will be in official use at all levels as provided by law. " Stevetauber (talk) 22:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Every document in Kosovo is written all three languages. ID card, Passport, bills etc. Road names, company info is written in all 3 languages, warning signs etc. You can register your company in all three forms Sh.p.k , OLK, LLC etc. all goverment sites are written in three languages etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memedhe (talkcontribs) 22:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The officialdom of language lies within a constitution or statute. In light of the fact that there is no permanent significant English speaking population in Kosovo there is little chance of it being named, just as it has no local population to serve. From having lived in Greece for 22 years of my life, I recall 99% of road signs and documents being published in Greek and English (including my driving licence since that is where I passed back in 1987) but this is more for international-friendly circumstmaces (Greek on top in yellow, then English in white to avoid all confusion), just as the pilot on the plane speaks in English when telling the cabin crew to take their seats for landing, even if the operator is Montenegro Airlines. In Europe you'll find English is only official in Malta. --Vrhunski (talk) 19:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
British Passports are also in French as well as English, it doesn't mean that French is an official language of the UK. English is used in Kosovo at International level and Business level because the English language is an international and business language, not because it is an official language of Kosovo. IJA (talk) 23:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2015[edit]

Author-editor recommends addition to sources of internationally recognized balanced work with translated essays from all sides.


Tarzan155 (talk) 00:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 03:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Redundant note[edit]

Somebody just tried to add that boilerplate Kosovo-note {{{2}}} to the article. People, I'm sure we've discussed this before, that template is obviously only for other articles that deal with Kosovo in passing, not this main article. Everything that note does is already said right at the top of the article lead. Besides, it wasn't even used properly; there was no "status" text anchor that linked to it, so it was technically quite useless too. Fut.Perf. 20:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; it's redundant. However, there are still a few redundant transclusions of that template on other pages, which have been left behind since its biggest fan stopped editing. bobrayner (talk) 21:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Kudos[edit]

I was doing some research for my job, which included learning more about the history of Kosovo from the breakup of Yugoslavia to present. I found this article to be quite well-written and informative. I just wanted to congratulate those you who have worked hard on the article, including resolving disputes, and to tell you that your sustained efforts are appreciated. Good job! -- Mark D Worthen PsyD 21:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Categorisation[edit]

Reliable sources (example) say that Kosovo is a country in Europe. We shouldn't even need to worry about sourcing for such an obvious statement. Why, then, do some editors insist on removing Category:Countries in Europe? Eventually, articles on Kosovo will be brought in line with what reliable sources say, but FkpCascais' reverts make this a very slow and difficult process. bobrayner (talk) 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

  • It seems like some people feel that being diplomatically recognised by every other country in the world is a prerequisite for being defined as a country, but it's not so. If it was neither the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Israel would be countries. Kosovo is a sovereign state by all normal definitions of it, and thus a country, whether some people like it or not. So I strongly suggest FkpCascais, now blocked user Muffi and everyone else who is removing the category and all mention of Kosovo being a country stop their reverts. Thomas.W talk 20:47, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Build wider consensus first, threaten users later. I suggest that. FkpCascais (talk) 20:52, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Saying current Kosovo is sovereign is challenging per se (is there a consensus from the past to include the link sovereign state in the lead of this article that I missed?). Also, comparing Kosovo, which is considered independent roughly just by half countries of the world, and still territory of Serbia by other half, is far from being comparable to the mentioned cases of Israel, PR China or Taiwan. FkpCascais (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
We need to keep a NPOV on this subject. So basically, by this argumentation, would you gentleman oppose adding as well the Category:Statistical regions of Serbia, Category:Historical regions in Serbia and Category:Autonomous regions? Perhaps also Category:Autonomous provinces of Serbia? FkpCascais (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
And WP:NPOV starts by saying "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.". I personally don't give a rat's arse about whether the country-category or other mention of Kosovo having the status as a country is in the article or not, but reliable sources regard Kosovo as a country, which is what matters. So since many reliable sources regard Kosovo as a country, and a large number of countries, particularly in Europe where Kosovo is situated, have recognised Kosovo as a sovereign country, you and the others cannot remove all mention of it, without violating WP:NPOV. Period. Thomas.W talk 22:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't give an arse about European countries neither your "period", understand sir? So while you don't show a willingness to fairly archive consensus, the clearly tendentious category will be removed. Period. FkpCascais (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Here are two sources saying it is a province: Until 2008 the province was administered by the UN (it finished the text also talking about the "province"), and we have In 2007, the UN issued the Ahtisaari Plan, which suggested "supervised independence" for the province. ... I can go on... There are clearly diffenrent views on this subject, so your agressivness is useless, cause this is a clear case where WP:UNDUE applies. So if you getleman want to include that much one point of view (of the independence), so some of the other categories I mentioned in my earlier comment should be added as well. It is up to you gentleman. FkpCascais (talk) 01:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Roughly half of world doesn't recognise the independence of Kosovo and still regards it as Serbian province under UN/interim administration, so in order to archive neutrality over this issue, we must either present both sides, or be careful and only present the undisputed facts. If the countries are European, I see no connection to it, I honestly didn't understand that argument. FkpCascais (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
A lot of reliable sources say also that Kosovo is not a country in Europe. You cannot just ignore some sources that you dont like. Kosovo is disputed, its not even a UN member, and it must be treated like that. You must be neutral here, everyone. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 11:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

To everybody, there are numerous as yet unmentioned problems with the category for countries in Europe. I will address those specified in the summaries.

  • One states in its first part: Regardless if a country is partially recognised or not, it is still a country. This is in tune to arguments posted above stating that Kosovo meets all the criteria to be sovereign regardless who does not recognise. I confess that to these points I cannot comment, however, if that is correct then the category should also include Lugansk People's Republic, Donetsk People's Republic, the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, and if you define them as Europe, South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
  • Then the same summary mentions: for example Cyprus or Armenia which both lack recognition. I am sorry but there is absolutely no way in this world Kosovo can be considered similar to Cyprus or Armenia. I would question any editor's WP:COMPETENCE if he cannot distinguish between states that do not have diplomatic relations with others, and states whose sovereignty is disputed. No country refuses to recognise Armenia or Cyprus as a result of either being a breakaway from the state in question, they are merely examples of states involved in internal territorial disputes. If an entity exists with which we can realistically compare the Republic of Kosovo then this would be the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (which lacks a "countries in" listing). Kosovo has fewer diplomatic recognitions than the State of Palestine which stands at 135, yet this too has no "countries in" listing, and therefore Republic of Kosovo has no special status over any other unrecognised territory.
  • Another summary is: can't we just follow the sources? http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/kosovo/overview. The World Bank is an institution that happens to recognise the Republic of Kosovo. It is not a paragon of irrefutable reference to what makes a country or not. Besides, the job of an editor is to identify neutral positions in disputes, and having any disputed territory in a "countries in" category violates WP:NPOV. Its absence is by no means an indication that it is recognised as being within the state to claim it. For what it is worth, the State of Palestine is eligible to become a member of the World Bank. Also, when the original editor added the category, he was not going by that source, so it is not a case of following the World Bank website.
  • Kosovo is already listed in List of territorial disputes. I have checked several left-hand side entries and no other state has a "countries in" category and this includes Taiwan which is the article for Republic of China, itself having once stood on the UN Security Council. So unless I have missed something, I see no special reason Kosovo outranks the states listed in this post. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe; this article belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it's not rocket science. bobrayner (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Although if Oranges Juicy genuinely wants to be consistent, I would point out that other entries in List of territorial disputes generally don't have their own equivalent of {{Kosovo-note}} spammed across hundreds of pages. Oranges Juicy, will you get rid of that too? bobrayner (talk) 22:22, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Those entries are actually not presented in the artices as independent nations in the way your edits tend to be, and that was the reason in first pleace the note was established. However, I will be happy if we rid the Kosovo-note template and return to Serbia/Kosovo formula if you wish. FkpCascais (talk) 23:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm lost. What do you mean by {{Kosovo-note}} being "spammed" across hundreds of pages? If it is spam, shouldn't somebody WP:PROD it? If not then perhaps someone more experienced should tell me exactly where the note should and should not be used. Not very long ago I asked an admin but received no response. Anywhere it stands but does not belong I believe we are free to remove it (such as here), and yes I have found it in several places and have even added it, or repaired the link to it when its foundation was already in place such as here. If I am "spamming" I would like this to be explained to me. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

PS. Although no note appears to exist for the other disputed territories, I see the matter is addressed in main space, for instance Ahmed Mohamed Mohamoud (Mohamoud is the current President of Somaliland, a self-declared republic that is internationally recognised as an autonomous region of Somalia.) and President of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (The President of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is the head of state of the self-proclaimed Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR), an exile government based in the refugee camps of Tindouf, Algeria.) to give two examples. So even there editors need to be cautious. On that note I cannot see a way out of this one, either the irritating note has to be in place or we'll have to exercise our fingers and type more. Unless someone knows the solution! --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe; this article belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it's not rocket science. bobrayner (talk) 14:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Reliable sources say that Kosovo is not a country in Europe; this article does not belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it is really that simple, i agree. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 14:23, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I hope that now you will understand that what you think is not a fact, but only your own opinion. We have sources for both thing. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 14:24, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Anastan, you have never provided any such source. If you want people to believe you, now would be a good time to provide a source that supports your claims. bobrayner (talk) 15:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Anastan, if you followed the thread then that last post to which you replied should have given you a sense of déjà vu. So let me make this response shorter and simpler. Reliable sources also say that it disputed, and disputed territories are treated differently throughout. Of course, if there is something that makess Republic of Kosovo different from Somaliland (see "reliable source"), then please share this with us. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Until there's no longer a dispute over Kosovo's status either way, it shouldn't be placed in the category-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • This is tendentious editing. Oranges Juicy cites a source which treats Somaliland as a country, yet somehow twists logic into arguing that the source means we can't categorise a different country. I look forward to uninvolved editors' comments. bobrayner (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Oranges Juicy hit the nail on the head with his first comment. You just keep repeating the same line that has already been addressed and even brought up the Kosovo-note which is entirely unrelated to this specific categorisation; if you want to discuss that, start a new discussion.
GoodDay provided an uninvolved editor's comment and now so have I. --Local hero talk 15:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

FTR. I very much doubt there is a source that bluntly states "Kosovo is not a country", but the same can be said of all of self-proclaimed states which takes us back to square 1. Concerning Somaliland, sorry if I did not make myself clear but I was not editing tendentiously, I was simply giving an example of how a reliable publisher can refer even to a territory that nobody recognises as a country. For what it's worth I am in no way implying that Somaliland be treated as a sovereign entity and anybody following my edits will have seen that I have even taken exception to its inclusion in a certain list because it has received no diplomatic recognition, ([4]). --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Oranges Juicy, please note that the questions you posed on that list's talk page could well be construed as WP:FORUMSHOPPING since you didn't provide this context for the question, and that the list has just gone through a spate of edit warring (again), including RM's in order to change the name with the objective of 'broadening' its scope (roughly translated as WP:OR). Bringing responses here is misleading WP:SYNTH. I will assume good faith, but you appear to be inadvertently spreading it thin. This discussion is taking place here, on this talk page. The list is proscribed to meeting criteria appropriate to that list alone. Bear in mind, also, that WP:WINARS applies to separate articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Iryna (this is separate from the message I wrote to you at my talk). I can assure you that the two issues are individual and I would have edited one the same way as the other regardless. With regards Somaliland (off topic here I know), I am fine with its self-proclaimed status and seeing it treated the same as Kosovo and Western Sahara but in having had no recognitions, I didn't believe it belonged on that article and therefore have proposed either the removal of states with no recognition, or switching article title for clarity. Obviously if that discussion should develop then I will happily cite this talk thread, so far I have found no need. I shall courteously alert involved editors to prove I am not intentionally forum-shaping. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Cheers, Oranges Juicy. For the record, as a neutral party, I would like to note that I "!oppose" including Kosovo in the European countries category per WP:NPOV. While I realise that there are arguments on a case to case basis, for the sake of parity across the board, being designated implied sovereign status would demand a review of all break-away states being included in the same category. Unless there is an extraordinarily compelling case for being depicted as a recognised sovereign state, I don't see how we can cherry pick which states of limited recognition should be treated differently. Such decisions could only serve to encourage further subjective pushes, so are we actually following RS or OR? As an encyclopaedic resource, I'd suggest that it isn't up to editors/contributors to make calls that only tertiary sources can.

That being said, however, 100+ sovereign nation-states and a plethora of RS attesting to recognition of Kosovo as being a country in Europe are very compelling arguments therefore, per WP:NPOV I, personally, would be so reticent to remove it from the category that I'd find myself having to "!oppose" its removal. Evaluating the arguments on a case by case basis suggests that, in this case, 'limited recognition' does not apply as being as being as extremely limited as other parallel cases presented here. In that manner, distinguishing between borderline or truly limited recognition doesn't factor into the equation as other states with limited recognition can't even begin to aspire to compete with Kosovo. It would be WP:OR to proscribe is and isn't in such a manner. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

If I could analyse the following comment: 100+ sovereign nation-states and a plethora of RS attesting to recognition of Kosovo as being a country in Europe are very compelling arguments. Well it is an argument, but not that compelling. Without doubt any entity to have recognised Kosovo will unquestionably call it a country, and this in turn will influence "reliable sources". As far as the remaining states are concerned, plus in their relevant media, Kosovo and Metohija is an autonomous Serbian province. The matter here is not the limited recognition but the disputed status, and not just disputed by one country but a good 50-60 who are likely never to recognise Kosovo unless Serbia does first. So this brings us back to the other unrecognised entities, and the one most deserving of any country status is Palestine. Unfortunately there is no middle road with these problems, either a subject does or does not appear on a category, and if it does, there is no way the all-important disputed status can be shown. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@Oranges Juicy: Quite. I actually agree with your evaluation. While playing at devil's advocate in the second instance, I'm predisposed to the inclusion of Kosovo in the European countries cat as being OR as I don't see NPOV as actually being the brunt of the issue. My preference would probably be to hold an RfC with regards to the inclusion, but an RfC would bring in neutral, but uninformed, editors/contributors (i.e., POV opinion regardless of GF). As the category is representative of recognised European countries, I would prefer to err on the side of caution, with Kosovo as being a subcat of Serbia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
Irina, you just said what I tried to say in a bit rudimental way in the beginning of this discussion. Since this is such a 50-50 case, representing one POV, which was bobrainers intention by wanting to add that cat, would make us necessarily have to represent the other POV as well. So we can chose going into two ways, one would be to be wise and cautious and only represent acknowledged undisputed facts, and the other would be to represent both views (meaning, adding "country in Europe" cat and "Serbian province" cats). I always defend the option of caution, but editors obviously well informed about the subject but pretending not to know the complexity of the issue make me kind of loose my good faith assumption and treat them like POV-pushers. FkpCascais (talk) 02:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
To feature them in both categories would satisfy NPOV but is blatantly self-contradictory and would create confusion for readers less knowledgeable that happen to stumble across the category pages first. The question of reliable sources calling Kosovo a country is at best clutching at straws to make the desperate point. Irina's argument that 100+ countries recognise is definitely a valid point. Obviously there is no threshold and everything works case by case. On this note she is right that we who have discussed here and at the noticeboard have largely exhausted our points and maybe the whole matter should be placed in the hands of a fresh set of contributors whose areas of interest lie outside Balkan politics. If WP policy should ever state that once recognition reaches the half-way mark with regards all declared states (even those unrecognised, as they still afford recognitions), it won't just be admitting Kosovo to Countries in Europe, but its rewording in the article opening line, its shift within lists to sovereign tables, and the likely removal of the note which features on a number of articles. All I would say here - to any onlooker - is that where Kosovo should go, it would be commendable and wise to take Western Sahara and State of Palestine down the same route. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)