Talk:Kris Jenner

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This is saying...[edit]

...and her second husband was Olympic star and TV celebrity Bruce Jenner... Referring to Jenner as a husband implies that Jenner actually was a man, not a pre-operative trans woman, at that time. Any way to re-word this?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Caitlyn Jenner was legally male at the time of their marriage in the 90's, and up until their divorce earlier this year. As confusing as it may be, this meant that Caitlyn (then Bruce), while almost certainly identifying as female at the time of their divorce, but perhaps not at the time of their marriage, was legally the husband and not wife of Kris. MB298 (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

She was never married to Caitlyn??[edit]

Now, do people get married to people or to their names?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:07, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Georgia, please contribute to the discussion above at #Bruce Jenner in order to help find a consensus, rather than creating a new section here every time the subject of Kris Jenner's former husband comes up in a way with which you disagree. Thanks. General Ization Talk 18:24, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

better picture available?[edit]

white on white background isn't that good. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

We either have this or the image from 2010, shown further down in her article. There may be some images on Flickr that would work, however I do have some doubts about their copyright status. MB298 (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

AP Style Guide[edit]

Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on the issue, here's how the AP Style guide regulates reporting for trans individuals "Transgender: Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."[1] Under this premise, Caitlyn Jenner should be readily identified and referred to by her currently preferred pronouns and self-identity. Maybe the parenthetical statement should say "formerly referred to as Bruce" if anything, which is still not even necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nfdgoisn (talkcontribs) 04:43, 29 January 2016‎ (UTC)

References

@Nfdgoisn: Firstly, please always add new discussions below old discussions, and remember to sign your comments. Secondly, the AP Style Guide is irrelevant on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia Manual of Style is the correct guide to follow. You can read about this particular situation at MOS:IDENTITY. I have reverted your change for now, as the article's wording has been fairly stable for a while. The article has comments which clearly state that it should not be changed without prior discussion here. Discussion consists of more than posting something which refers to the wrong style guide, then making the change 5 minutes later. Please allow time for people to respond to the discussion. I fully support Caitlyn's right to self-identify, and her wishes in that regard are widely supported by Wikipedia policy. The particular content here is a narrow case, and needs special consideration. Lastly, please always provide an edit summary, especially when making a change which could well involve controversial issues (as was indicated by the article's comments telling you not to just change it). Murph9000 (talk) 05:15, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Murph9000: I apologize. I saw that it said to post on the talk page before changing, and I felt I had fulfilled my obligation to do so. My argument was that conventional style guides give preference to self-identification, and thus should be used. Even the Wikipedia style guide you cite (which I was previously unaware of, so thank you) indicates this to be the case (regarding reference in Main biographical articles),

When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses. [...] Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise
— MOS:IDENTITY

I interpret this to mean that reliable sources refer to her as Caitlyn Jenner, there's a priority for self-identification, and that this should be applied to any phase of that person's life. Certainly we take this to mean that there's a priority for Caitlyn to be referred to as such on her own page, or in the context of being an Olympian. I'm not sure how this would be any different. The style guide says it would only be subject to change if "the subject has indicated a preference otherwise." To my knowledge, neither Caitlyn, nor even Kris Jenner, for that matter, has indicated a preference otherwise. The text we have to work with for reference in other articles is

Generally, do not go into detail over changes in name or gender presentation unless they are relevant to the passage in which the person is mentioned. Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis. The MoS does not have specific rules stipulating when to give both names, which name to use first, or how that name should be written.
— MOS:IDENTITY

If, generally speaking, we are to interpret the main biographical page regulations to indicate a preference for self-identification, and in other articles, we are instructed to not go into details of name changes or gender presentation, then it stands to reason that we should still put precedence on self-identification (pending relevancy). If the point of "relevancy" is that Kris perceived her as male during the duration of their marriage, then I believe that thought can adequately be conveyed parenthetically (i.e. Caitlyn Jenner (formerly known as Bruce). Not doing so is in violation, as her former use of male pronouns are marginally relevant at best and neglects the precedence of self-identification formerly referenced in the MoS. There are virtually no arguments to be made supporting intentional misgendering for this single instance or in this particular context. So, unless there is any evidence for the "subject's" preference on the matter, or there's any other argument to be made for the "relevancy" of intentional misgendering, or the neglect for self-identification, then the current presentation of the article is in needless violation of the AP Style Guide, the Wikipedia Style Guide, and human dignity. Your assertion of stability is irrelevant by those standards. I suppose you can undo your undo whenever you change your mind on the matter--because it's clearly not the community or MoS' decision that is preventing the rephrasing. Nfdgoisn (talk) 06:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Murph9000: Additionally, if we are aiming for consistency, why is this particular edit not consistently paralleled when similar phrasing later occurs in the "Personal Life" section? Nfdgoisn (talk) 06:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Nfdgoisn: The stability is relevant, as I believe it reflects past consensus, which is how Wikipedia reaches decisions on issues like this. My immediate concern is not to rush through a change, without giving others a fair chance to provide input (this page is currently watched by 136 editors, so there is a reasonable chance that others may wish to provide input). My big picture concern is that the article must accurately reflect the marriage in a neutral way that is fair to Kris. It is important that a new reader who has no prior knowledge of Kris or Caitlyn is not given a misleading impression of Kris' sexuality. This article is about Kris, so it should give a true reflection of the marriage from her side. As far as I can tell, Kris entered the marriage believing that she was marrying a man, and that remained the case for the majority of the marriage. This provides context for "Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis." So, as a minimum, I believe that the infobox and the start of the main content (in the body of the article, not the lead) around the marriage must refer to Bruce in some way. Exactly how we do that is something for discussion. I am certainly not claiming that the current state of the article on this issue is perfect. We just need to be very careful to be sensitive to both Kris and Caitlyn, and ensure that a new reader could not leave with the mistaken impression that the marriage was something other than a heterosexual union. We must not assume that the reader has any prior knowledge of Caitlyn, or that they have either already read or will go on to read her article. We need at least a minimal reference to Bruce, or some appropriate and clear alternative, to properly reflect the nature of their marriage. As I said previously, I fully support Caitlyn's right to self-identification. In this particular article, we just have to be careful to fairly reflect Kris' life as well (which is the primary purpose of this article). This can be a tricky thing to get right. Murph9000 (talk) 09:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Drmies, as the closer of the policy discussion on this at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification, would you care to provide input? Murph9000 (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I have little to offer here. I think the best thing to do is to ask some of the participants in that discussion. What I can say is that for many there it was highly relevant that Caitlyn Jenner had a highly visible career as a male athlete, and of course as a male marriage partner. If it hadn't been for that, we might have seen a different discussion and consensus. Drmies (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Kris Jenner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:10, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Caitlyn Jenner still considers Kris her ex even though she had a different gender and name[edit]

Ok, so it doesn't matter if it says Bruce or Caitlyn as Kris's spouse, it's the exact same person who was married to Kris Jenner. We can put the spouse for Kris as Caitlyn as it is the exact same person. Caitlyn stills considers herself the same person as she was in her past life as Bruce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michaeljacksonfan104 (talkcontribs) 21:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)