Talk:Kwanzaa

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It's so African, that it uses the Semitic word 'saba' for 7 (compare with 'sheva/shiv'a' in Hebrew, and similarly in Arabic)[edit]

That's another thing that the ueber-PC author forgot to mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Because the whole thing is bogus, that's why. 67.235.123.157 (talk) 04:13, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Saba is Swahili for "seven". Swahili is a creole with multiple language inputs. 140.182.64.23 (talk) 19:38, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

and Semitic and African aren't necessarily contradictory - Amharic is a Semitic language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.232.89 (talk) 10:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 December 2012[edit]

References 14 and 15, linking to swagga.com are not functional. 160.83.72.209 (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I have added the {{deadlink}} tag to those links. —KuyaBriBriTalk 20:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation?[edit]

I've never heard anyone mention this made-up holiday. I noticed it on a calendar I bought. There is no natural way to say "aa" in English, so how is kwanzaa pronounced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.123.113 (talk) 15:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

No natural way to say "aa"? Aaron the aardvark must be sorely disappointed.

Protected for the season, as usual[edit]

Given that it's official vandalism season, I've protected the article for a while. --jpgordon::==( o ) 15:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I certainly don't endorse vandalism, but I don't see any mention in the article of the real background of convicted criminal Ron Karenga, nor the fact that he simply made up the holiday of Kwanza. Is the need for Political Correctness so strong that even facts no longer matter at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.20.187 (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Shrug. People can click on his name to read his history, of course; and when he invented Kwanzaa (the article does indeed say Kwanzaa was created by him), he wasn't a convicted criminal. We also don't mention Karenga's pair of doctorates in the article, nor his connection with the Million Man March, nor the widely-used textbooks he's authored. --jpgordon::==( o ) 01:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

The Dartmouth Review is not a reliable or quality reference source for this article[edit]

The following statement uses the Dartmouth Review as a reliable source. The Dartmouth Review is a highly controversial source with a controversial journalistic history involving race, and its article referenced here does not present an unbiased point of view and does not support with primary source evidence assertions which are contested. As such, the following statement should not be included in an unbiassed article about Kwanzaa on Wikipedia:

"During the early years of Kwanzaa, Karenga said that it was meant to be an alternative to Christmas. However, as Kwanzaa gained mainstream adherents, Karenga altered his position so that practicing Christians would not be alienated, then stating in the 1997 Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community, and Culture, "Kwanzaa was not created to give people an alternative to their own religion or religious holiday."[6]" ^ J. Lawrence Scholer, "The story of Kwanzaa", Dartmouth Review, 15 January 2001. Glitteritude (talk) 21:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

You're right. I've removed it. --jpgordon::==( o ) 01:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure about this, because I know the statement is true. Let me review and get back. Ok I am back. I have to say the objections noted above are not sufficient. They could be thrown at anything and claim to have hit it. I have seen language like "controversial" used but race is always controversial, and nothing in that article is more controversial compared to some of the other ref used. --Inayity (talk) 05:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Whew, did some digging. One guy said the problem with Africa is it was not colonized Enough D'Souza (part of the group)Maybe we do not need there opinion. But the statement I believe is accurate.--Inayity (talk) 16:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I think it might be, indeed -- and it's made difficult to determine by the sheer number of places that cite the Dartmouth Review article as gospel. But we should hope the author was drawing upon some or another real source. We just need to find it before the thing can stand. --jpgordon::==( o ) 19:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Now that the paragraph no longer cites the Review, but instead sources Karenga's views from his own published works and sources that are sympathetic to him, what exactly is the problem with it? 50.136.204.132 (talk) 21:31, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

sorry i reverted myself just re-looked at your edit summary.--Inayity (talk) 08:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced (and incorrect) claims about Kwanzaa and Swahili language[edit]

From the text: "The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase matunda ya kwanza, meaning "first fruits of the harvest".[3][4] " I am well aware that this is the claim of Kwanzaa proponents. It is, however, not correct. And it is not referenced because citing a book (which has nothig to say about Swahili language) and a website which has no scholarly value does not really make a reference.

  • anacostia.si.edu claims "Kwanzaa is a Swahili word that means "first" and signifies the first fruits of the harvest. " No, "first" can be expressed by "kwanza" but that is not "kwanzaa". And it definitively does NOT signify "first fruits of the harvest". (this is "matunda / mazao ya kwanza". Kwanzaa is NOT Swahili but a "new American word" invented by Mr. Karenga). There are enough good Swahili dictionaries around. This claim can not be veryfied from any of those. (see http://kamusi.org/ The living dctionary on the Internet and http://kess.co.tz/swa-eng/k.html the dictionary edited by TUKI od University of Daresalaam, nor any other).
  • Mayes, Keith A. (2009). Kwanzaa: Black Power and the Making of the African-American Black Holiday Tradition - is being referneced here but DOES NOT support the claim that "kwanzaa" is a Swahili word and has the claimed meaning in Swahil.

Thus as unreferenced statements the text should be removed or at least worded in a way that makes it clear what is Karengas claim and what is Swahili language. Kipala (talk) 10:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

This is correct. There is no such word as Kwanzaa in Kiswahili, but only 'kwanza' which simply means 'first'. Matunda ya kwanza does not mean 'harvest' but only 'first fruit'

It is worth noting that Kiswahili is a polyglot language, being a mixture of Arabic and Bantu languages, with a smattering of English, Portuguese and Hindi. Its prominence in East Africa arises, sadly, out of the fact that it was the language of the coastal slave traders and its spread was brought about initially by the disruption of the tribes that stood in the path of the slavers as they traversed Tanganyika, from Bagamoyo on the coast to Lake Tanganyika. Its further spread was brought about by its use as the language of command in the King's African Rifles throughout British East Africa and, in a thoroughly bastardised form, by the British settlers in Kenya (giving rise to much mirth). It was so much associated with colonial and Arab oppression that educated East Africans preferred not to speak it. It was given impetus under the Nyerere government in Tanzania and has taken its place as the Tanzanian national language and the language of urban communication in Kenya and eastern Uganda. Various forms of Kiswahili are now spoken as far afield as Kinshasa. Those in the disapora might care, however, to reflect on its origins and the fact that it was completely unknown in West Africa (from which most slaves transported to the USA were taken). If it's an authentic West African language that's sought, a better choice would be between Hausa, Mandingo or Yoruba— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:6f:8d41:f7d8:18aa:ac7e:e62b:9da8 (talkcontribs)

Unreferenced (and incorrect) claims about Kwanzaa and Swahili language[edit]

From the text: "The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase matunda ya kwanza, meaning "first fruits of the harvest".[3][4] " I am well aware that this is the claim of Kwanzaa proponents. It is, however, not correct. And it is not referenced because citing a book (which has nothig to say about Swahili language) and a website which has no scholarly value does not really make a reference.

  • anacostia.si.edu claims "Kwanzaa is a Swahili word that means "first" and signifies the first fruits of the harvest. " No, "first" can be expressed by "kwanza" but that is not "kwanzaa". And it definitively does NOT signify "first fruits of the harvest". There are enough good Swahili dictionaries around. This claim can not be veryfied from any of those. (see http://kamusi.org/ The living dctionary on the Internet and http://kess.co.tz/swa-eng/k.html the dictionary edited by TUKI od University of Daresalaam, nor any other)
  • Mayes, Keith A. (2009). Kwanzaa: Black Power and the Making of the African-American Black Holiday Tradition - is being referneced here but DOES NOT support the claim that "kwanzaa" is a Swahili word and has the claimed meaning in Swahil.

Thus as unreferenced statements the text should be removed or at least worded in a way that makes it clear what is Karengas claim and what is Swahili language. Kipala (talk) 10:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I see no objection to rewording on etymology. I propose going for Kwanzaa is a neologism which Karenga formed from the Swahili word "kwanza" meaning "first". He claims this refers to a Swahili expression "matunda ya kwanza" which is supposed to mean "frist fruits of the harvest" but in fact just says "first fruits".
Up to here is what can be safely said and verified from any dictionary, PLUS the inability to reference anything about "Swahili harvest festivals" of which I so far found no reference anywhere. Until recently I was at loss from where Karenga might have got the idea of "first fruits" which definitely does not work in the climate zone of Swahili tradition along the coast of the Indian Ocean (something grows all year round in the tropics) - but then I came across a South African festival (cf Incwala) which indeed is a "first fruits" occasion what makes sense outside the tropics. If Karenga did not just take his idea from some North American custom it may indeed have been the Swazi festival which he decided to declare "all-African" and express in some language reminiscent of Swahili, for which however, he invented a new word. Some of his other linguistic inventions are really humourous, like answering to the Swahili greeting "habari gani" by of of those slogans he prescribes during the Kwanzaa week -but this irony obviously is lost on non speakers of Kiswahili.. Kipala (talk) 09:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
No need for us to construct a new definition the definition on Wikipedia goes by what RS say it is. Even if that is not 100% true according to someone somewhere. Unless most scholarly sources use the language proposed by Kipala then it should stay as is with perhaps a Note.--Inayity (talk) 12:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Pls help: what is "RS"? Beside my point is not Kwanzaa. The article contains an unreferenced and incorrect claim about Swahili language. That should not stand. I have shown above that the references in the article are ether nonexistent or not usable. Kipala (talk) 13:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Is this the sentence? --Inayity (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase matunda ya kwanza, meaning "first fruits of the harvest" - it has two references, all you need to do is add a [note]ref.--Inayity (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry I did not get the point what "RS" is which you referred to? Besides I pointed out that there are not 2 references. see above. Kipala (talk) 14:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
As stated before you can add a note to the sentence. BUT I have googled it and many sources say that is what it means by a few sources, .Self-Awarness through Swahili.--Inayity (talk) 15:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
PLEASE, why dont you tell me what you meant by "RS" up there? Why don't YOU add a note a) showing scholarly sources for the claim that "Kwanzaa" is Swahili (I gave you THE standard dictionary by TUKI), b) showing that "matunda ya kwanza" should mean "first fruits of the harvest" (which it does NOT, it just means "first fruits", without harvest), c) showing any indication for a Swahili Tradition of "frist fruit festivals".... DO IT, DEAR!!
Just in case you don`t find any reference, please do not tell us that "googling" whatsoever is a reason to keep unfunded and disputed alligations here. Googling is an excellent tool sometimes to find good and valid references - and often it gives us just crap. Need to say that???
Else the present wording IS misleading. "Neologism" is the right label of this kind of expression, and it is exactly what the official Kwanzaa website explains how they made this new word up (have you read it? One kid too much and they needed one letter more?). Besides I just see that meanwhile the "official website" itself refers the idea of "first fruits" to the Swazi festival (definitely not Swahili and being extra-tropic not "typical African"); 2 years ago when I checked last they did not say it yet but claimed some general "African tradition"). So there is more to change to make it understandable. Anyway please bring your references! I showed above that the present citations are worthless because note 3) Mayes says NOTHING about etymology and no. 4) just repeats stuff while obviously not having any knowledge of Swahili language. I wll not impress you with the claim that I am speaker of that language that's why I challenge you to bring valid references (knwowing that you will not get them as it stands). Cheers!!! Kipala (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The right sentence is what RS say it is, your proposal is Original research WP:OR. I do not actually have to do anything more than what I want to do. I have labelled it and corrected it and already given you a JSTOR link. That is the extent of my contribution, the burden is on you.--Inayity (talk) 05:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

It's that time again[edit]

Another season, another semi-protection. I suppose we could just sit back and wait for the inevitable vandalism, but nah, I don't think so. --jpgordon::==( o ) 15:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Pro-active semi-protecting that no one could argue with--Inayity (talk) 21:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
thanks as always for doing this. it's a headache every year how the trolls and the amateur googlers with axes to grind come out of the woodwork. Elefuntboy (talk) 22:50, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Wow, have to start it early this year. Twits. --jpgordon::==( o ) 14:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2015[edit]

lolol its fun Lancecatheyneal (talk) 18:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done, please be more specific if you are requesting an edit. Thank you. -Liancetalk/contribs 18:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit about Kawaida[edit]

Hej.
As it is Kawaida is a redirect to African_Philosophy#Kawaida.
That section does not exist (anymore?) in that article, so it leads to the top of that article. As it is dubious if information about Kawaida would really belong there in the first place, I want to suggest changing the Kawaida redirect into a red link / not existing page. This to me would be better than pretending that there would be more information to get at African_Philosophy. At least atm. Kawaida is not even mentioned once over there - and maybe rightly so. thanks, and Joyous Kwanzaa 46.142.19.19 (talk) 18:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

This is too once sided![edit]

Why is there no information on how this is a made up racist holiday! Or anything criticizing it? Seems to one sided pro kwanzaa! 71.166.33.65 (talk) 19:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Every holiday is made up, none of them are natural (well, solstices may be natural, but some humans choose to mark them). '''tAD''' (talk) 10:16, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

How many people celebrate?[edit]

I was looking around online to see how many people really celebrate Kwanzaa but most of the articles I can find on the subject are all asking the same question and some are doubting that a significant number of people celebrate it. Lice000 (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

It must be December![edit]

It must be semi-protection time again! --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 18:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)