Talk:Lạc Việt

Dong Son culture

Are these people related to Dong Son culture? Badagnani (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Dong Son culture is also known as Lac Society.Sea888 (talk) 16:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Are there sources for this? Badagnani (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes there is.Sea888 (talk) 00:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Geography

Where exactly were the Lạc Việt based, and where was their capital? Badagnani (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Language/culture

What was their linguistic/cultural affiliation? Badagnani (talk) 21:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Origins

Some Google Books sources imply that the Lạc Việt originally came to the Red River region from southern China. Their origins should be described in the article. Badagnani (talk) 21:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

This theory has been denounced. The ancient Vietnamese(red river delta) stood at the end of the Ch'in and Han expansion.Sea888 (talk) 16:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Those dynasties are relatively late. I'm speaking of very ancient times, thousands of years BC. Badagnani (talk) 18:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Vietnamese article

Need translation of the first paragraph of vi:Lạc Việt. Badagnani (talk) 22:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Hán tự

Please do not continue to remove the Hán tự, as was done twice today. Those characters were used by Vietnamese, in Vietnam, to refer to this ancient kingdom for hundreds of years. We aim to be 100% encyclopedic, not 95% or 99%, and thus presenting for our readers the earlier written form used by Vietnamese is integral to having the most encyclopedic article possible. Badagnani (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Han Tu was used hundreds of years AFTER. This kingdom did not use Han Tu and there is evidence of a writing system before the invasion of Chinese forces and this is a modern english encyclopedia.Sea888 (talk) 23:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned above, those characters were used by Vietnamese, in Vietnam, to refer to this ancient kingdom for hundreds of years (prior to the mid-20th century, when such characters were largely abandoned). Are you having difficulty understanding my English? I don't know if English is your first language. This is a multilingual encyclopedia, and, where relevant, to facilitate a greater understanding of Vietnamese topics, where relevant such characters are included as glosses. Badagnani (talk) 23:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

No. It was used after by Vietnam HUNDREDS of years after. This kingdom and its people never used Han Tu period. If any editors other than Badagnani and HongQiGong want to contest do so else I will remove it.Sea888 (talk) 23:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, are you having difficulty understanding my English; is English not your first language? I'll explain a bit more: the characters which appear Chinese were actually borrowed by the Vietnamese royalty and scholars in much the same way, for example, the Persian and Turkish cultures borrowed the Arabic script, to write their own languages. Thus, the characters you insisted on removing three times today, without discussion, were used by Vietnamese, in Vietnam, for hundreds of years, prior to the abandonment of such characters in favor of the quoc ngu system in the early-to-mid-20th century. As such, to have the most encyclopedic article possible (not 95% or 99% encyclopedic), we include such characters in glosses. Badagnani (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

When did the Lac Viet period exist? And when did the Vietnamese start using Han Tu? HUNDREDS of years after this period. There is also evidence that the Vietnamese developed their own written script before the arrival of the Chinese and that should be used. The Vietnamese royalty did not use Han Tu DURING this period of history.Sea888 (talk) 00:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

That is correct. However, as mentioned earlier, the Han tu spelling was used for hundreds of years in Vietnam, by Vietnamese scholars. Badagnani (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Well I would suggest that it shouldn't be used here.Sea888 (talk) 00:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned earlier, that would lead to a 99% encyclopedic article rather than a 100% encyclopedic article. Badagnani (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

How so? It just confuses the reader thinking that Chinese influence existed during this period, which is not true. That would mean that anything relating to Vietnam(even modern articles) regardless of the period can be translated into Han Tu. Quoc Ngu should be used because Han Tu is now obsolete.Sea888 (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

To avoid misleading the reader that such characters were used at that time, context about the characters to this effect can certainly be added to the article, and they can be moved to another section (such as an "Etymology" section). Regarding adding Han tu to all Vietnamese articles, we don't generally do that unless they're of relevance (usually if the characters were used during the time the subject of the article was named). Regarding Han tu, they are indeed no longer used in daily life, but Vietnamese historians certainly do use them in their research, and we also use them here, to provide valuable etymological background about the subjects we cover. For names (such as the names of monarchs) as well as Sino-Vietnamese toponyms, they provide the meaning behind the names. Badagnani (talk) 00:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

30th 29c bc people

I removed these categories, as they are for individual humans, not cultures.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 00:12, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

An alternative etymology of Lạc

According to the historian Ben Kiernan the word "Lạc" may have been an ancient form of what is today "Nước", please see:

"Thông specifically wrote that nác is “an archaic or dialectal form of nước” (my emphasis), a correct statement. It is indisputably dialectal, at the least. But as Thông likely knew, the fact that nác means “water” in the Vinh dialect is itself evidence that nác might also be an archaic Vietnamese term, and a variant of lạc. The Vinh area, or more precisely the nearby uplands of Nghệ An province (of which Vinh is the capital), Quảng Bình province, and an adjacent area of east-central Laos, is precisely the region where historical linguists locate the ancestral homeland of the Vietic language family."
— Ben Kiernan - https://apjjf.org/2017/23/Kiernan.html

The current article lists an etymology that is based on words used next to "Nước" but this etymology places the origins more directly at "Nước". --Donald Trung (talk) 19:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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