Talk:The Partisan
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Subject[edit]
Can I clarify what this page is about?
"La complainte du Partisan" is the French resistance song by Ann Marly, described here.
"The Partisan" is an english language version of the same song, covered by various artists, most notably (perhaps) by Leonard Cohen.
If this is about the French song, it should be moved to that title; if it's the english song the text and categories should reflect that. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmm. There's nothing to indicate that the authors intended the page to be specifically about the English versions of the song, so I'd say the page is about the song in general, so using the original title (in French) indeed seems correct. I'll move it now. Gronky (talk) 13:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Cover versions[edit]
This previous version of the article lists several cover versions removed September 3, 2019, as many of the available sources were not that good and none had much of value to say about their respective versions. Per WP:SONGCOVER and WP:SONGTRIVIA: additions need to be more than verifiably existent, their existence needs to have weight. It has been quite frustrating, for example, to find bundles of references in great quality sources to Joan Baez having recorded a version, but not to find anyone worth listening to say anything substantial about her version. Only because so many sources reference it, have I left it in. Consider this talk page message a heads-up and a cry for help; there are many other versions, but over the course of weeks of research I found almost nothing useful to say about them. Please don't try to shoehorn empty cruft into this article, but make every effort to track down and utilise good sources to expand the coverage of covers if possible. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 22:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 26 July 2020[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. DrKay (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
La Complainte du partisan → The Partisan – Most English sources, as expected, use the English version of the title, so the article should be moved to that per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. "The Partisan" already redirects to this article. (t · c) buidhe 02:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nomination. This would reverse an undiscussed move from The Partisan to La Complainte du Partisan in December 2011 and another move from La Complainte du Partisan to La Complainte du partisan in July 2019. Unless this is split into two separate articles, the English Wikipedia main title header should indicate "The Partisan", the title that is known in the English-speaking world as described under La Complainte du partisan#The Partisan and depicted on the cover of the Leonard Cohen album. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support; the song is most famously known by its English translation and covers thereafter and the article should be titled accordingly.
Fred Gandt · talk · contribs11:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC) - Oppose The article as it stands is not about the Leonard Cohen cover, but rather the song more broadly. "The Partisan" is the common name for the Leonard Cohen cover, I think sufficient evidence has been provided of that, but I would want to see evidence of it being used to refer to the song more broadly. It may very well be that this article should be restructured to focus primarily on the "The Partisan" as that is the most famous iteration of the song, in which case I would absolutely Support the move, or split into two articles entirely as mentioned. However as the article currently stands I think such a move would be harmful and does not fall under the cited guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME or WP:USEENGLISH. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
- WP:SONG states "If the song is in a foreign language and titled using the Latin alphabet, then, unless the song is commonly known by a translated name in the English-speaking world, the original foreign title should be used." A substantial number of good sources indicate that the song is most well known due to Cohen's cover of Zaret's adaptation/translation, and not only in the English speaking world; his cover breathed life into a song which held a specific, relatively short lived importance in its original form (the longevity of the popularity of Marly's Chant des Partisans should not be confused with this'). Almost every notable cover since Zaret got his hands on it, has followed the basic structure musically that Zaret and Cohen introduced, leaving the original as a highly noteworthy and important story to tell about how and why the song came into existence. I see no good reason to split the article, but would be happy and willing to assist in restructuring it if the title is changed to reflect how, by far, this song is best known.
Fred Gandt · talk · contribs00:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- WP:SONG states "If the song is in a foreign language and titled using the Latin alphabet, then, unless the song is commonly known by a translated name in the English-speaking world, the original foreign title should be used." A substantial number of good sources indicate that the song is most well known due to Cohen's cover of Zaret's adaptation/translation, and not only in the English speaking world; his cover breathed life into a song which held a specific, relatively short lived importance in its original form (the longevity of the popularity of Marly's Chant des Partisans should not be confused with this'). Almost every notable cover since Zaret got his hands on it, has followed the basic structure musically that Zaret and Cohen introduced, leaving the original as a highly noteworthy and important story to tell about how and why the song came into existence. I see no good reason to split the article, but would be happy and willing to assist in restructuring it if the title is changed to reflect how, by far, this song is best known.
- In that case I will switch to Support rename with restructuring. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 01:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Restructuring Following Move[edit]
Now that article has been renamed to the name of the most famous Leonard Cohen version, I think, as was discussed in the move discussion, that a restructuring is needed in order to make this article coherent. Point being that the article despite bearing the name of the Cohen version focuses very little on that version and does not even mention it in the first paragraph of the lead. I am proposing that without eliminating any of the existing information we shift this article to center the Cohen version. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- Cohen's version is referred to throughout the article as it is highly influential and widely referred to in sources. As a rough measure of focus; the existence of the words "Cohen" (61 times) "d'Astier" (28 times), "Zaret" (27 times) and "Marly" (20 times) may be compared. Cohen and his version are referenced in every section except the "origins" (now "La Complainte du partisan") which is only proper.
Fred Gandt · talk · contribs14:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)