Talk:Lady and the Tramp/Archive 1

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Famous scene

Surely the most famous scene is the spaghetti scene, not the one where Lady is chained up?

What is the source for the information on the deleted scenes? Who interviewed the 'interviewee' mentioned under production? I highly doubt there's a missing "sex scene"--I think someone may have confused mentions of implied sex (Lady and the Tramp spend one night alone and Lady has puppies at the end) with long-lost Disney dog porn. If one googles "lady and the tramp" "sex scene", this is the first page that comes up, and the subsequent ones only refer to the implied mating. Also, I don't think it's possible for Disney to 'plagiarize' their own movie--plagiarism implies copyright infringement, and no matter who wrote the scenes from Lady and the Tramp and Dumbo, the copyright for both is held by Disney.

I'm surprised you didn't get a bunch of furry porn with that search oo In any event, I think that its distinction as the only Disney movie with an implied sex scene is somewhat dubious - The Lion King has the whole Nala and Simba rolling down the hill, then Simba lying on top of Nala and Nala licking him on the face. Titanium Dragon 01:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

from Lady and the Tramp DVD 50th anniversary edition - On the second DVD, The [Backstage Disney] Making of Lady and the Tramp - it is not mentioned as any missing scene, but the implied to adults watching the film what happened and how it is delt with, Trusty and Jock do propose marriage to explain to the kids without such. This is actually part of what Walt Disney and company are so good at, making films interesting to children, yet including a story that is of interest to the parents and other adults watching the film. (the DVD also stated that it was always intended that Lady and the Tramp would have puppies at the end of the film. An early version Tramp did not live in the house but was invited by then Mrs. Fred to be in a Christmas picture since he was the father.

There is a sort of multi-level to feature Disney animation where there is a story for children, and another level of implied story for adults. This is for greater interest in the movie and the movie is still interesting years later as the understanding comes. Don't know where there is a link for this.?? This could be some sort of link for animation if need be to explain many of these type of comments that come up. I have read these here and in newspapers - On this DVD the Backstage Disney the Animators talk about how they understand the movie as adults compared with how there remember as a child. Is there a common name or link for this???

Suggestions of the scene in the Lion King was a different situation as that was a continued bit from an early scene when they are very young Nala everytime could pounce on top of Simba. It is more sort of a girls can be tougher and over boys scene. The movie says that they will be maried, and such bringing you full circle of life, the kids become the next parents. Being royalty King and implied queen they are an arranged marriage situation. Kidsheaven 23:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC) additional comment kidsheaven@gmail.com 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Video release error

Earlier, like January 2006, it was put that Lady and the Tramp used the "Sorcerer Mickey" classics logo, that wasn't true, who put that there? If the person who put there knows it, he must have a PAL version of the tape.

Peg

In the text of her intro in the dog pound, and in preview for the movie in one version: it is said: "she is formerly of the dog and pony follies" - which I figure would link to dog and pony show.

I had changed this to state "dog and pony show" which is not exact - but, see the closed captioning of the movie on the 50th year DVD it is stated "dog and pony follies"

Someone changed this to "dog show" which is incorrect. The added she was left behind is likely more accurate than what I had typed in though.... Comments Welcome kidsheaven Kidsheaven 23:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

See the link to dog and pony show why it is most likely the suggested meaning; where Peg would have formerly been a performer "singing dog", similar to The Fox and the Hound 2 singing strays. It states:

Dog and pony show was a colloquial term used in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to refer to small traveling circuses that toured through small towns and rural areas. The name derives from the typical use of performing dogs and ponies as the main attractions of the events.

dog and pony follies = dog and pony show

Peg additional commentsKidsheaven 21:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

A Little Edit

I took The Lion King off the list of things that have used the hyena laugh. The one in The Lion King was done by Jim Cummings and the background hyenas were voiced by some of the animators, directors and some other people.24.205.204.203

TOO MUCH Trivia ??

I went through the list and marked by double astrix-dot the possible drops in my view based on how important they seem to be in view of an average person who would look at the site, I made no change to allow other comment or other choices. I do not want to just start cutting without input of others if available, too many times things are just cut that others or myself find important, trying to go by rules of how WIKIpedia is set up kidsheaven 00:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No comments yet to proposed drop, I moved one part to group it better. I made no other change yet. kidsheaven 23:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with dropping some of the trivia, and the fact about Scamp's comic book is either untrue or misleading. He was given a comic book titled "Scamp," but his first appearances seem to be in a book called "Walt Disney's Comics and Stories." In the late 50s and early 60s, he appeared in a few other books as well. In 1967, they reprinted the original stories in 47 issues that were released over 12 years. Seems that was Dell Publishing's (who did all the Disney comic books) MO. I see no evidence the book was published until 1988 and the way the question is worded, it implies that Greene wrote the book for 30 years.

I just added two Simpsons parodies. It was bound to come up.Sposato (talk) 01:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

killing the trivia heading

taking from Kingdom of Hearts and Lion King possible changes

new headings?

  • Production notes -
  • Creation and Design -
  • Merchandising - comic book Lady and the Tramp, and Scamp
  • Popular Culture - spaghetti scene - Simpson's
  Possible change - add any comments, better choices Kidsheaven (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Achewood-inspired vandalism

I removed the following passage from the trivia section:

Lady and the Tramp continuity error no. 3: When Lady goes to buy the cigarettes for Tramp, she gets him a pack of Newports. This brand was not introduced to the market until 1957, two years after the release of this film.

This is a joke from the author of Achewood (see current toddler status, 2/23.) --Mashuren 06:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"Larry Roberts", who voices Tramp, is linked to Dr Lawrence G. Roberts, one of the pioneers of the Internet. I don't think this is the same person.


Overly long plot summary

Not sure I agree that its an overly long plot summary. But most of the plot summaries for movies don't have headers for each paragraph - what do people think about removing those? Egret 05:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Free use artwork

I have found it is very hard to find any such thing, as it may be years past production, but Disney manages to re-copyright the photos available. The original trailer is included in the 50th anniversary DVD set, which would seem to be covered by the copyright of the current DVD, same with any picture taken from the original film. Only if found an actual copy of a poster from the 1955 time period would your free use seem possible, but that is already the picture that is on this site. Other artwork not used in the film is on the DVD and also would be copy protected. Kidsheaven 20:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

There has been a good amount of criticism toward this film. For example, the scene where Lady and Tramp convince the beaver to remove Lady's nuzzle may teach children that deception is okay if it helps one accomplish a goal.

I would add this section but I will be traveling in the coming weeks so I will not have time but if anyone would like to tackle this one, that would be another valuable viewpoint on this film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.157.130 (talk) 04:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I don't know that anyone had that other than if it is your POV. Critics did not like the movie and quality of animation according to what is link #8 in references on 3/22/2008. Kidsheaven (talk) 20:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

OK,I noticed it says "Despite an enmomos box office sucess,critics panned the film" or something like that.I think this must be POV,because I only hear prise for the film.REMEMBER IT IS A WALT DISNEY CLASSIC MASTERPEICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!74.249.96.7 (talk) 17:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The criticism mentioned above about the beaver, the stuff about the implied sex, and many of the other criticisms of this 50's family movie are REALLY PLAIN STUPID! 153.2.246.32 (talk) 02:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

What a sad reflection on society that someone had to semi-lock the Lady and the Tramp article. Seriously? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.54.8.45 (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually not society, but a particular user who likes to target Disney articles. If you'd like, read this report to learn why so many Disney articles are semi-protected. --McDoobAU93 (talk) 00:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The Simpsons

"The film has twice been parodied on The Simpsons, particularly the famous spaghetti scene".

The spaghetti scene has been done plenty of times with many numerous shows. Why is the Simpsons been singled out? Wild ste (talk) 17:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would think that, given how famous this scene has become and often it has been spoofed, parodied, etc., it would be downright impossible to list every allusion. It might be a good idea to place a hidden note advising editors not to add references in and to have someone patrol the page to discourage these additions. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)]]
OK, I have added a hidden note that reads thusly: "Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) before adding cultural references. The reference must be a MAJOR or "especially notable" connection to the film before being added; non-notable references may be removed at any time by editors. Editors are especially encouraged to discuss proposed additions on the talk page before including them in this section." To be fair, I do think this section could be expanded with referenced information and analysis on how the spaghetti scene has become ingrained in popular culture in the years since this movie was released. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 14:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)]]

Era?

What era was this movie set in? There were still horse-drawn carriages and cobblestone streets, along with flash powder photography and other elements that belie the year 1955. Has there ever been an indication as to when it was set? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quigonpaj (talkcontribs) 01:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

In the documentary that came with the DVD they say Lady's town setting mimics the one Walt Disney spent his childhood in. 153.2.246.32 (talk) 02:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Though, would that mean it's set in 1909, which it indicates on the front page, seems really precise. I've seen the movie, actually isnt't there a scene where Jim looks at a calendar, does it say the year or just the month? The snare (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I checked. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G2Wq1ymP5I and go to the 24 minute and 54 second mark.

The calendar “JimDear” flips through shows January starting on a Thursday, and February having only 28 days. That “real” calendar depicts 1913 accurately. Lady has just turned three. Schweiwikist (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

FOLLOWUP: After resuming the film, I noticed a flub, or a deliberate obfuscation: When we see the purple/blue-on-black November and December (1912?) calendars to show time passing, they don’t correspond. The goofs page on the IMDB points this out. But these calendar pages are imaginary anyway.Schweiwikist (talk) 10:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Restored sections for Characters & Directing animators

15-Oct-2008: I have restored the short section that identifies the various characters in the film (without bold-face font), and restored the section for "Directing animators" plus soundtrack details. In general, deletion of whole sections of an article should be discussed, beforehand, on a talk-page, to ascertain a broad agreement for such deletions. Although some sections might not exactly follow the WP:MOS concerns, revising rather than deleting could be the better approach. In any event, the act of deletion should be discussed in advance. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but no that does not require prior discussion at all. Those are not appropriate sections and have no place here. The characters section is pointless and there is no valid reason to have it. Ditto the directing animators and the unsourced claims about the soundtrack. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Untagged article issues

15-Oct-2008: Following the above restoration of whole article sections, the top box complaining about article issues, such as "plot too long" and such, was no longer applicable. Also, such an enormous top box, grandstanding for 20 lines over an article, can be easily seen as an endless rant, with numerous gripes: "OMG this article isn't perfect...but horribly flawed in many ways...OMG!!!" The effect is a little, shall we say, overkill, and blocks readers from viewing the article text.

In recent years, more experienced Wikipedia editors have moved away from those grandstanding, top vanity-boxes, and now use the more measured response of inline notes, such as for citation-needed (as "{{fact}}" showing "[citation needed]") or clarify (with "{{huh}}" showing "[clarification needed]"), or just limit tag-boxes to only the sections concerned, rather than scar the entire article with an over-arching top vanity-box, proclaiming above all that the article is horribly defective, as a dire warning that all readers must heed before proceeding any further. Imagine what new readers must think when first seeing a 20-line box, ranting about article problems: that's why more experienced Wikipedia editors don't use those top vanity-boxes as in the old days of Wikipedia. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Your removal of the tags were completely inappropriate. The top box issues were all completely applicable, and your restoring of the removed sections only made them more so. Your removal of the tags without actually fixing any of the problems with this article was completely inappropriate. And sorry, but tagging every damn line of this article with a fact tag would be just plain ridiculous, as any actual experienced editor would know. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
  • 17-Oct-2008: To User:AnmaFinotera: I am sorry that you didn't want to open a dialog about alternate ways to change this film article, but I will leave it alone for now and work on other articles. -22:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
You did not attempt to open a dialog about changing the article, you removed the tags then posted a long rant about why you personally don't like them. You also reverted this article to a old version that had worse problems, then tried to claim that fixed the tagged issues when you had undone much of the work that had gone towards that end. I do appreciate your removing that rather unfounded personal attack, and for stepping away. This is one of many Disney film articles I am working to slowly fix up while having to work between the hits by the Disney vandal. This does include adding those issues it is tagged for as I can. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Wikid77, the article seems to have been substantially reformmed. Most of the points don't seem applicable anymore. I'm going to remove the top box and give the article another read through. Let's discuss any additional issues that you may have with the article, instead of just reverting the removal of the top box. Banaticus (talk) 23:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Grammatical error

I don't have a username, so I can't make this change, but in "Tod's mother (whom only appeared on screen for three minutes in the film) is shot at the beginning of the film (albeit off-screen), and we see the skins of animals including foxes later in the film.", 'whom' should be 'who'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.25.77.51 (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

[clarification needed] ocrasaroon| blah blah blah

Photo request

I don't have access to one, but given how famous the spaghetti scene is and how it has become ingrained into popular culture, wouldn't it be a good idea for an editor to add a still from the scene to illustrate the article? [[Briguy52748 (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)]]

"Death" Section

I removed the section entitled "Death" since no sources have been found for it for a while. Also, most of it was just a recap of the scene in the movie at the dog pound and proposed reasons why it was put in the film. I also don't see why this is even mentioned in the article when many other Disney films have portrayed Death in a variety of ways (after all, it is "the circle of life"). I don't think anyone will be researching this film to find out how death is portrayed. If so, they can make their own conclusions. Cactusjump (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Film timeline

I noticed that a number of speculations had been made recently in the plot section, which another editor had noted was too long. While trimming down the plot, I went back to my copy of the film (1999 DVD release) to attempt to discern a timeline and see how things add up. Assuming the movie starts on Christmas Day 1909 (not sure exactly where the year came from, but will work with it):

  • 1909
    • Christmas Day - Lady is presented to Darling
  • 1910
    • Summer - Lady gets her license (Jim Dear says Lady is about 6 months old)
    • Summer - Darling becomes pregnant (see below)
    • February - Darling's baby is born (calendar at opening of scene is April; 9 months earlier is summer)

At this point, things get a little hazy, and some assumptions must be made. The baby is probably a few months old when Jim Dear and Darling take their trip, which would put the date somewhere near the end of July or August, maybe September at the latest (the leaves on the trees aren't shown to be changing, I think). From here, the events appear to take place in very rapid succession, with a total time of maybe 3-4 days at most. The next confirmed time period appears to be Christmas Day 1911, which should be enough time (a) for Lady and Tramp to have their puppies and (b) for Trusty to still be in a cast, and thus probably not be "permanently crippled," as a recent edit suggested.

While this may sound like a forum post, I'm using this to make sure that, within the "plot summary" section, we're not making assumptions that can't be supported by the film. Opinions?

--McDoobAU93 (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Theme Parks

In Walt Disney world there is a restaurant, Tony's Town Square, featuring the lady and the tramp.

Again, I ask...[clarification needed] Why is this section on the talk page? Is there a question in here somewhere I'm just overlooking? ocrasaroon| blah blah blah

Ward Greene book: "novelization"?

The article refers to Greene's book as a "novelization". Greene's Lady & The Tramp: the story of two dogs seems to have been published by Simon and Schuster in 1953 (see, for example, Google Books). The film is dated as 1955. To the casual reader this is confusing, and needs either an explanation or a correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lyn50 (talkcontribs) 10:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


Peggy Lee legal battle

In 1991 Peggy Lee sued the Walt Disney Company for breach of contract claiming that she still retained rights to the transcripts, including those to videotape.[20] She was awarded $2.3m, but not without a lengthy legal battle with the studio which was finally settled in 1991. This source thinks Peg is a Lhasa Apso. But she is a Pekingese because they said she was in the story. She does not look like a Lhasa Apso at all. That doesn't seem very lengthy. Some months may be useful, or the date is wrong for when it was settled or begun. 12.162.122.5 (talk) 06:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Budget

The article says the budget is four million dollars. Is there a reference to this number? In Neal Gabler's biograhy about Disney, the budget is mentioned as almost three million dollars. 84.210.60.115 (talk) 15:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

If the budget number in the article is uncited, you are free to substitute your number, provided of course you provide full citation for the work you're talking about. That does not mean the number will stay permanently, in case someone else comes up with a better citation. However, that's the double-edged sword of being bold. --McDoobAU93 15:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 38.103.95.130, 22 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} i would like to edit lady and the tramp please

38.103.95.130 (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Please provide information regarding your requested change instead of asking simply to be permitted to edit. --McDoobAU93 23:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Tramp

In the article it states that Tramp must be a Schnauzer mix. When I look at pictures of Tramp he is definitely a mix of Schnauzer because he's gray and white .... and possibly part American Cocker Spaniel. Definitly not a purebred Airedale Terrier because those are brown and black only. Such an idiot. I swore i saw one JUST like Tramp.He might not look to much like a purebred Schnauzer because in the story,he's a mutt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.21.12.9 (talk) 03:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Tramp should have his own entry. He not only starred in the sequel but before that the character was used several decades earlier starring in a short story99.111.152.6 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:45, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Release

I added a home media section and updated it to include information about the Blu-ray. I also noticed that we are missing sources for the older release dates. Does anyone have a good reference for this? --TravisBernard (talk) 18:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 December 2011


99.12.86.35 (talk) 01:20, 16 December 2011 (UTC) Tramp is mixed with Standard Schnauzer and American Cocker Spaniel. And Peg is a Pekingese not a Lhasa apso. Besides, this is stupid because they say she's a Pekingese in the story line.

On hold - hi, please be a bit more specific and provide WP:RS reliable sources to support your desired alteration, - thanks - Youreallycan (talk) 23:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

American or English Cocker Spaniel?

The article says that Lady is an American Cocker Spaniel. Is there a source to confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.21.197 (talk) 08:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Lady is a "Cocker Spaniel" or what is called outside of America an "American Cocker Spaniel." This article incorrectly calls her and "English Cocker Spaniel." Please see www.akc.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.49.121.149 (talk) 02:53, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 December 2012

GRAMMAR: The phrase "story would be improved if Lady fall in love" should be "story would be improved if Lady fell in love". Libertarian3033 (talk) 02:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Done Good catch. Thanks! --McDoobAU93 03:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Is the character name "Tramp" or "the Tramp"

The article itself is inconsistent using both. IMDb labels the character as "Tramp" in its credits. The film itself doesn't list character names in the credits. "Lady" is named and called "Lady" by other characters in the film dialog so that name is not ambiguous. The SDH subtitles for the Blu-ray version of the film use "Tramp" when referring to lines spoke by the character. Other film dialog from songs and other characters refer to the character as "Tramp" "the Tramp", "a Tramp". The poster in the article emphasises "Lady" and "Tramp" on separate lines. I think a very strong case can be made that the official name of the character is "Tramp". Also less confusion with the Charlie Chaplin character "The Tramp" as shown by some of the edits in the edit history. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Also see http://movies.disney.com/lady-and-the-tramp/characters for names Disney gives characters. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2014

Please change "On Christmas morning in 1908, Jim Dear gives his wife Darling an American cocker spaniel puppy that they name her Lady. When Lady grows up, she enjoys a happy life with the couple of her friends, Jock, a Scottish terrier, and Trusty, a bloodhound. Meanwhile, across town living by the railway, a friendly stray mutt named Tramp dreams to live in a family and home that he won’t get captured by dogcatchers to prove his courage to be safe. " to say "On Christmas morning in 1908, Jim Dear gives his wife Darling an American Cocker Spaniel puppy that they name Lady. As Lady grows up, she enjoys a happy life with the loving couple and her friends. Her friend Jock is a Scottish Terrier and Trusty is a Bloodhound. Meanwhile across town by the railway lives a friendly stray mutt named Tramp. He dreams of living in a home with a family where he will be safe and won't have to fear being captured by the Dogcatchers. " Because the grammar and sentence structure is incorrect and confusing. Thank you. 98.27.16.176 (talk) 13:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done I gave the entire summary a once over and found a lot of errors in the story similar to that which was described here. It should flow a lot better as it focuses on the main story and keeps extraneous details to a minimum. Thanks! --McDoobAU93 14:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Merge of article List of Disney's Lady and the Tramp characters

The article List of Disney's Lady and the Tramp characters has a lot of issues, can we just redirect it? Most of it seemed like it was just rehashing the plot with some WP:OR thrown in. It even had a few sentences that were poorly written and didn't make any sense. Like for example, these sentences under the Tramp's section: "He doesn't like it when anyone mad at him, he like someone to be happy. Tramp won't tell a secret for Lady and Scamp, or they'll mad at him." I fixed it a little by taking off that part, adding a proper lead sentence, adding a correct category (it was uncategorized), and fixing some of the syntax plus I removed the words beautiful and handsome under Lady and Tramp's sections, but it still only has three characters listed. If it has to exist, can we PLEASE try to improve it? Add more characters, including characters from the sequel, add more details, make it worth reading. Either that or just do a merge. Anybody agree with me on this? 172.243.13.227 (talk) 07:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

You know what, after looking through this talk page I found out this article used to have a characters section, so I looked through the edits by User:Wikid77 from October 2008, and found some more information in this revision of the article. The information has been added. So maybe the characters article CAN be notable after all? However, it still needs information about the characters from the sequel I think. 172.243.13.227 (talk) 08:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I managed to find more information from the following articles: Lady (Lady and the Tramp), Tramp (Lady and the Tramp), Jock and Trusty, and Junkyard Dogs. The information has been added. 172.243.13.227 (talk) 09:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Peg's bread: Maltese or Lhasa Apso?

This article mentions in the plot section that Peg is a Maltese, however, in the other article List of Disney's Lady and the Tramp characters, it says she's a Lhasa Apso. I also remember Lhasa Apso being used in one of the previous versions of this article from like four years ago. Personally I thought she was a Pekingese because my Aunt used to have a Pekingese which looked a lot like Peg. Her name was Elise. However, she sadly died about a year ago. That's just one reason why this movie is special to me. 69.174.87.44 (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)