Talk:Lee Grant

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1925 or 1927?[edit]

Is Lee Grant born in 1925 or 1927? I'm confused. IMDB says 1927. Something else sats 1925. Ask Dinah Manoff. She knows, I think.--E2e3v6 (talk) 19:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Lee Grant was born in 1925. She lies about her age, like many actresses. She used to claim 1931 as her year of birth.The Intelius reflink I provided should show she is 86 as of today, her birthday. Happy 86th, Lee!!Quis separabit? 21:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. Lee Grant was born in 1927, according to IMDB. I know.--E2e3v6 (talk) 00:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Well if you care to explain just exactly how you know I will be happy to digest that info, but IMDb is NOT always right. Census records and Intelius records are more reliable. Quis separabit? 00:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

::: Turns out we were both wrong; according to Intelius search today, she was born in 1928, and is thus 83 years old! (WHO WOULDA GUESSED IT?) Given how rapidly Intelius changed the year of birth, I suspect Grant or someone on her behalf must have faxed a copy of something sufficiently trustworthy for Intelius to make the adjustment. Wow. Quis separabit? 20:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

NOPE — she's a sly one but I checked both the 1930 and 1940 U.S. censuses at Ancestry.com and she was indeed born in 1925, just as I thought.
The 1930 and 1940 U.S. censuses at Ancestry.com both show Grant was born in 1925. The 1930 census (Source Citation: Year: 1930; Census Place: Manhattan, New York, New York; Roll: 1577; Page: 11B; Enumeration District: 1027; Image: 588.0; FHL microfilm: 2341312. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1930 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2002. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Fifteenth Census of the United States, 1930. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1930. T626, 2,667 rolls) gives her age as 4 and 6/12 months (i.e. 4 ½ years old).
The 1940 census (Source Citation: Year: 1940; Census Place: New York, New York, New York; Roll: T627_2671; Page: 9A; Enumeration District: 31-1922. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1940 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. 2012. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Sixteenth Census of the United States, 1940. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1940. T627, 4,643 rolls) gives her age as 14. Although it should be noted that her first name is given as "Lyniva" in 1930 and "Lyoua" in 1940. Quis separabit? 23:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Birth date requires a secondary source. Please see WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:DOB. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

According to WP:DOB: "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object. If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year." So does that mean just mention "1925"? Quis separabit? 16:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Technically, even just the year requires a proper secondary source. I'm not going to remove it myself but if someone else does, it shouldn't go back in without a source. At least that's my interpretation. Note that WP:DOB doesn't pre-empt the other parts of WP:BLP. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

My own opinion is that BLP discourages listing a birth date unless it has been widely reported outside Wikipedia, but listing the birth year only requires a secondary source. And I would guess imdb counts as a secondary source, but I have not looked into it in detail. If you need more help with policy questions, I suggest going back to the BLP noticeboard and asking. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me revise the above. Someone at BLP/N has said that imdb is not considered a proper secondary source. Personally I don't know, I'm just guessing. I do know that the census is not a proper secondary source. Suggest you continue to ask at BLP/N if you need more help. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124 Lee said she was blacklisted at the age of 24. If she was blacklisted in 1951, that would put her birth year at 1927, depending upon the actual date of the blacklist (and assuming her memory is accurate). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:B108:C4F3:0:8:5D1E:D01 (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124, Lee also mentioned a trip to Paris at age 6. According to ship records in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 database, she was 7. If you look at the image of the record, not just the index, the record actually lists her date of birth as 31 Oct 1925.

Ship: Champlain Date of Arrival: 12 Jul 1933 Passenger: Lyova Rosenthal Age: 7 Date of birth: 31 Oct 1925 Birth Location: New York Port of Departure: Le Havre, France Port of Arrival: New York, New York

(Source Citation Year: 1933; Arrival: New York, New York; Microfilm Serial: T715, 1897-1957; Microfilm Roll: Roll 5355; Line: 27; Page Number: 45 Source Information Ancestry.com. New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4C01:274E:F852:C008:AE23:8138 (talk) 09:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Just to add an additional wrinkle to things, I've had a look at the Manhattan Birth Indexes for the 1920s and there appears to be no record of a Lyova Rosenthal (or any female child with that surname) being born there on 31 October 1925-1929. There is, however, a record of a "Rosenthal, female" (no given name stated) who was born in Manhattan on 31 October 1924. Hmmm... Muzilon (talk) 10:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I've been unable to access any birth records, and cannot verify the claims in the comment above as a result.
The image for the Paris trip says 1926, not 1925, but she'd only be six at the time, not seven. --Ronz (talk) 23:09, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
OK, new evidence -- Ancestry.com now has the New York Birth Index 1910-1965 online:
Lyova Rosenthal
Birth Date: 21 Oct 1925 [sic - the transcription page says "21" Oct here, but the actual Index page image scan - which you will need an Ancestry subscription to view - clearly says 31 Oct]
Birth Place: Bronx, New York City, New York, USA [NB. not "Manhattan"].--Muzilon (talk) 03:35, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
This is very compelling. We had pretty much narrowed it down to 1925 or 1926 as of the RFC at the bottom of the page. A lot has happened since this particular discussion though and changing the date again would require overturning the RFC consensus, which may require a fresh RFC. I suggest you start a completely new discussion at the bottom of the talk page rather than reviving an old discussion. This is new evidence and should be reviewed with fresh eyes. Betty Logan (talk) 09:57, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

"Mad programmer" comment[edit]

Shouldn't there be some mention of this incident? For a good while over the years--before I came to think of her first for her memorable turn in the memorable "In the Heat of the Night"--I must admit that this was the first, and pretty much only, thing I would think of when hearing the name Lee Grant.

I don't know all the details, but my usually-pretty-reliable recollection is as follows: she appeared on "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" a while after a sitcom in which she starred--which I presume but don't know for a fact was "Fay" on NBC--had been cancelled. Now, I never saw a "Fay" episode, nor did I watch that edition of "Tonight", and indeed can't even confirm it was Carson, rather than one of his various guest hosts, that she was talking to that particular evening. In any case, the conversation on "Tonight" somehow came around to her recently-shuttered show. It was then that she uttered one of the most famous off-air quotes in TV history, attributing its cancellation to an unnamed "mad programmer" at the network. (While I didn't see "Tonight" that evening or in repeat--though I doubt it was ever repeated by NBC, given its notorious nature--I did read about it a day or so later, and then would see frequent references to it for several years thereafter.) Supposedly the outburst made her persona non grata throughout the television industry for years at least, which is understandable, especially if "Fay" was the sitcom in question, given that "Tonight" was also an NBC property. Can anyone add any details to this? Thanks in advance. [signed] FLORIDA BRYAN

10/31/2012[edit]

HAPPY 87th BIRTHDAY, LEE. Be glad you're alive and healthy. (My father would have turned 87 this year had he not died in 2009.) Quis separabit? 22:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Length of Blacklisting.[edit]

This article states, and Ms Grant stated to Robert Osborne on TCM in a guest programmer segment (7/30/2014), that she had been blacklisted for 12 years. Isn't that incorrect??? She was "outed" in Red Channels magazine in 1952 and did not appear on the screen, at least, until 1959 in "Middle of the Night." Did she appear under a stage name??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_of_the_Night I think the article needs more factual research.User:JCHeverly 16:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Answering own question: According to Lee Grant, her's was the very last name to be taken off the blacklist in 1964.User:JCHeverly 05:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Number of children??? Comment[edit]

In one of her many book interviews this summer, Grant said she had three children and two were step sons.User:JCHeverly 05:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Precise age?[edit]

Being that the reliable sources have her dob as being between 1925 and 1928, I suggest rather than having the article look silly with no birth date, we include a reliable sourced one, note the differing cites, and add a note explaining the others. We can let the reader decide. I'll add one to the infobox pending further consensus or debates, and do we really care?--Light show (talk) 04:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Nor is there any reason to give special attention to Only Victims: A Study of Show Business Blacklisting, By Robert Vaughn, as his viewpoint would not be any more reliable than the two encyclopedias cited in the infobox. He used his PhD thesis for the book, and adding text about the book itself is unnecessary and undue promotion, since it's already listed as a citation with all the others. --Light show (talk) 18:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

That is unjust. The book cites records from the hearings where she stated she was born that year.Radiohist (talk) 22:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Further re year of birth[edit]

These links:
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results/image/lr4snn600n0
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results?first=Lyova&middle=H&last=Rosenthal&state=NY&rid=0s0&smck=ULmAoibGO4nwrcmj0g9R7w
indicate Lyova Rosenthal was 14 years old in April 1940 (age provided as of last birthday, i.e. 10/31/1939), showing that 1925 is the correct YOB, just for the heck of it. Quis separabit? 15:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that her correct age of birth according to available records indicates she was born in 1925, which means she is turning 90 in 2015. IMBD also uses 1925. HesioneHushabye (talk) 03:29, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree. But she is denying it and OTRS directed that the wording re year of birth be changed. Quis separabit? 19:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

90th birthday[edit]

Happy 90th birthday, Lee!! Quis separabit? 12:37, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Penguin Publishing, which published her autobiography, is likely the best source. Their description on the flyleaf states, "At age twenty-four she was nominated for an Academy Award for Detective Story..." The film was released in 1951, and she would have been nominated in 1952, which would put her birth date in 1928. --Light show (talk) 02:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

She always lied about her age; her autobiography is not going to be any different. Census records are clear. Quis separabit? 02:51, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Plus Kirk Douglas in his own autobiography, I Am Spartacus!, and the star of Detective Story, said she was twenty-three when they filmed it. --Light show (talk) 02:07, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

She always lied about her age; how could Douglas know except what she told him. Quis separabit? 02:51, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
She is obviously very uncomfortable about that, so please just let it go. Why do you insist on this? Also this really isn't a topic for discussion.Radiohist (talk) 21:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Is analysis to paralysis undermining the bio?[edit]

According to guidelines about using primary sources for her date of birth, most, if not all of them should probably be removed. This Holmesian attention to her dob has produced an "analysis paralysis" status which has undermined the bio, IMO. We have a bio of a famous person with no date of birth, along with a questionable assertion that there is a "dispute." Are there actually disputes about it? If so, they are not cited. Just because different sources give a different date for an event, does not alone create a controversy.

Nobody has used the term "controversy" in the article only "dispute[d]", which is entirely accurate. There is a date of birth (October 31), but the year is disputed. I'm fine with just saying in the lede "born October 31, 1925/1926 (varying sources)" or words to that effect, for instance. Quis separabit? 16:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
I was using the verb form of what some might consider a dispute, such as some argument or debate. But I still prefer arriving at a single year. WP is a tertiary source, like any other encyclopedia. We should be able to use our best judgement and simply note any second opinions about a fact. We can also change it if better sources show up.--Light show (talk) 17:35, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Is there any objection to removing the primary sources? --Light show (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I have a simple suggestion to bring the bio back to earth. First, we agree on the guidelines about not overusing primary sources:

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources.

Then we come to a consensus about which secondary sources are the most reliable. I mentioned two examples in the previous section, and there are obviously others, including her own testimony at the HUAC. From that consensus, we choose a single dob for the bio, and include the other RSs for other dates as a note. While the date may be scientifically incorrect, what is correct now IMO is that the bio is highly defective with its reliance on reaching absolute certainty. Thoughts?--Light show (talk) 21:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

You are absolutely right about the way the birth year controversy is distracting. However, the question of which year to choose still remains. On the other hand it could be argued that the bio is so detailed that this distraction may be ignored. As to your question, it was in reference to Quis separabit?, who wished Grant a happy birthday in her talk page.Radiohist (talk) 19:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
It seems much more than a distraction since it's typically considered a vital detail for a bio, in this one at the top of the lead and infobox. So why not go by what she tacitly admitted to in the recent audio interview you added? She did not disagree when the interviewer said she got her first Oscar nomination when when she was 24. We could easily cite this and add sources with a comment such as "although other dates have been noted." I also think removing the primary sources would support the guidelines, since while she has admitted to lying about her age on public documents (in the same interview,) it was related to her early career and the need to be younger. --Light show (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
You have a good point. I'd agree to that.Radiohist (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
From this mini-consensus, I can add as her dob 1928 based on her most recent acknowledgement, and add notes about contradictory RS dates (excluding primary sources.) --Light show (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
She also confirmed 1928 during her 2014 interview with Robert Osborne (08:13), where she said she was 24 when she received the award (1952).--Light show (talk) 02:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
"She also confirmed 1928" -- no, she claimed it -- two very different verbs.
I disagree and there is no reason to change the format which makes clear that the year is disputed, without privileging any one year over the other. Census records and travel manifests indicate 1925 or 1926, but I am not pushing. So we should leave it the way it was/is. Quis separabit? 03:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Primary vs. secondary sources[edit]

The basis for the different dates are primary sources, such as census records and travel manifests. But the guidelines say that RSs should be secondary sources, and Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source. So do we have secondary sources listing different dates? (I'm not using the word "disputed" since that implies people are disputing the dates.)

And per the discussions, there is a consensus to use 1928. Is there some guideline that states that where two or more facts differ, neither one can be included, even with a note? Is an RfC needed? --Light show (talk) 04:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a consensus for the 1928 date. Also, Grant seems to be inconsistent about her year of birth if she has given 1928 in interviews. She testified (presumably under oath) to the HUAC that she was born in 1926. If I had to take Grant at her word I would take her testimony under oath over a celeb interview. It seems to me the debate over her true year of birth was handled correctly before the recent changes. Betty Logan (talk) 08:11, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Responding to a discussion that I can no longer find (BLPN or the like maybe?) (here it is): I think the current version is a good solution. When a birthdate is disputed, great care should be taken when using information from non-independent sources and sources that may not have fact-checked the information. Census records are very good primary sources, as are other legal documents, but especially birth records. See Talk:Rebecca De Mornay and Talk:Lydia_Cornell for examples of using both primary and secondary sources together. --Ronz (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
@Ronz: Can you please clarify which solution you mean? The current version of the article uses the 1928 date which comes exclusively from interviews with Grant, and therefore relies on a primary source (and the year contradicts the year Grant provided to HUAC under subpoena. The previous version provided a range of date between 1925 and 1929 and relied on a mix of secondary and primary sources (i.e. biographies, census data and her Huac testimony). Personally I think the long-standing solution up to the most recent changes were the most robust solution. Betty Logan (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I like that there is a note about the date being disputed.
If a single year is listed, given what has been presented here, it should be 1925. Having a range is a good solution. In articles without high-quality sources, not stating a year is the common solution.
The census data are fairly strong primary sources. If there are independent, secondary sources supporting it, a proposal based upon those should strongly be considered.
I think it would be best to remove content about her lying about her birth year, unless very reliable, independent, secondary sources make it clear that such information is encyclopedic somehow. Green is gold in entertainment, so presenting it as a personal issue (or flaw) seems to me a rather blatant BLP, NPOV, and NOT vio.
This is a very sensitive matter, and I think BLP needs to be followed closely. There are ongoing legal disputes that apply (Hoang v. Amazon.com, Inc.). --Ronz (talk) 16:15, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
http://wtop.com/entertainment/2015/07/screen-legend-dishes-on-oscar-emmys-blacklist/ gives her birth year as 1925. I'm seeing little for '26, a considerable number for '27, few for '28, very little for '29. --Ronz (talk) 18:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems little has been resolved about the issues: 1) Is analysis to paralysis undermining the bio?, or 2) Primary vs. secondary sources.

It's useful that a few non-editors to this bio have stopped by to make comments, but the issues noted have not been resolved. This is a 3,000-word article and there appears to be an intense effort to imply that there is a dispute about her dob, so we can't give one. IMO, the effort is misguided and there certainly is no "dispute."

About some of the the new comments, Betty Logan wrote that her "presumably under oath" HUAC statement should take priority as another primary source. But note that her HUAC testimony came from a secondary source by an author who was not there. As for the strange amount of forensic research about what she wrote on a census form, a number of details: There is no link to the actual forms, although the cite says they were online. And Grant already said in the radio interview that she once asked the Mayor of Los Angeles to change her drivers license date, which would be a bit harder than filling out a census form. In any case, census data, even if we have it, is a primary source, and the point of the discussion is whether they should take precedence over secondary sources. The guidelines say no.

Her recent radio and TV interviews are both primary and secondary sources combined. The interviewer stated her age and she tacitly agreed.

Personally, I don't care which date is used, and don't assume too many readers care either. The point is whether it undermines the bio to have a few editors create an imaginary "dispute" about something so insignificant. I just looked at how a very reliable 1,600-page encyclopedia dealt with it, (International Dictionary of Films and Filmakers: Actors and Actesses) and it's similar to what we have now. It has the year, and in parentheses states, "some sources give ..." Very simple and logical. Nor is there any "dispute," which for some reason a few editors claim there is, since a "dispute" implies some sort of argument, and there are no arguments. We only have some different sources which include different dates. --Light show (talk) 20:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Witness testimony to HUAC was recorded. The author does not have to be physically present for it to be a reliable source. Robert Vaughn, the author, has a PhD and his thesis about Hollywood blacklisting was published as a book. Do you honestly think he is incapable of accurately relaying witness testimony? Wikipedia favors secondary sources over primary sources so your position is not backed up by policy. Ultimately though it matters little what Grant actually says about her age as actors have been known to often misrepresent their ages. Grant herself is clearly inconsistent on the issue and secondary sources give different dates so per Rms125a@hotmail.com that should be reflected in the article as it was prior to your intereference. Betty Logan (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Edit conflict
It's a real dispute. Look at the reference that was removed: Carrie Rickey (2014-07-17). "'I Said Yes to Everything,' by Lee Grant". SFGate. Retrieved 2017-01-17.  Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. Look at the other book reviews. She is not a reliable source for the year of her birth.
An interview is a primary source.
I agree we need clear verification if we were to try to use the census info, and secondary sources to back it up.
We've multiple, contradicting reliable sources, and this is a topic with legal consequences. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lee-Grant says 1927. Anything nearly as reliable saying different?
Is the HUAC testimony as reliable? I'm not sure, but I don't think it's more reliable. It's still primary. --Ronz (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
The source I gave is about 2,000% more reliable than Britannica, as it is a multi-volume encyclopedia with nearly 5,000 pages of pure movie industry bios. But it would be nice if some would at least attempt to respond to the original issues of these sections. I suggest, again, we reach a consensus to choose one date and add a note about the others. And since neither of you has contributed to the bio, feel free to opt out.
Per Betty Logan's claim that because some SF journalist who read her autobiography and found no precise date, then that journalist becomes a reliable secondary source, is contradictory. He did what Robert Vaughn did, recite a primary source. Two recent interviewers also stated her age, which makes them secondary sources. And if, as BL says, "it matters little what Grant actually says," then we can also devalue her census forms and maybe her HUAC statements. But overall, both of you are bouncing between valuing and devaluing primary sources, whether it came from her autobiography or her statements. And the main result creates this imaginary "dispute," which still undermines the bio. and is the key problem. The only dispute is unnecessarily taking place on this bio. --Light show (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
BLP requires we get it right, especially when there are legal consequences.
To get this dispute settled, maybe we could clearly list all the sources we are considering with a quote covering what each source states? --Ronz (talk) 21:57, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I think we should restore lede and infobox (in re year of birth only) to last stable edit ([1]), which doesn't privilege any particular year. Quis separabit? 23:28, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I am not arguing for the HUAC date. I am simply pointing out that her testimony under oath contradicts the date she has given in other interviews. All the dates that Grant has given herself—whether through testimony or interviews—are primary sources and are equally subject to policy in that regard. The assertion that Grant's dob is not in dispute is clearly not the case so I second the suggestion by Quis separabit to revert to the WP:STATUSQUO. Betty Logan (talk) 00:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I went ahead and reverted to the sourced version that I created that doesn't give an exact year, then copied the reference and note to the infobox. At least this version is sourced and the accuracy of the content is not disputed. As far as presentation, I find it awkward.

This version mentioned [2] seems better in that it gives a more specific and verifiable range. I don't think it is an OR violation if sourced, but I think we need the sources to back it up. --Ronz (talk) 19:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

  • Your changes were made against the consensus of actual editors, which contradicts your rationale, "clearly no consensus to include." By "actual editors," I'm referring to editors who actually contributed to the article, not just curious drive-byes. Of the main still-active editors, I added about 1,400 words of text, Rms125 about 900, and Radiohist, about 500. However you and Betty Logan have contributed absolutely nothing.
Radiohist and I agreed that the 1928 date should be used and gave the reasons (see above section, "Is analysis to paralysis undermining the bio?") It's common sense and logical that when you have three editors actively working on an article over many years, their opinion should take priority. --Light show (talk) 20:10, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
BLP creates very strict requirements for content and consensus. 1928 is verified so far by nothing that isn't primary, so it is a BLP violation to include it. If you want to find some consensus for it, start by finding a better source. If the International Dictionary of Films and Filmakers: Actors and Actesses that you mentioned gives that date, please quote and provide additional details for verification. I couldn't find it, but then I don't know which volume, edition, entry, page, etc you may be referring to. --Ronz (talk) 20:30, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
I've looked for further reliable, secondary sources, but I'm not finding any. Maybe someone else will have better luck. --Ronz (talk) 20:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
I've changed the article content to a new version, that only specifies she was born in the 20s. What range we give in the notes should depend on what sources we find, and some of those sources need to be in the note itself. --Ronz (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) First of all there is not a consensus between the three "regular" editors since one of you has protested against the selection of a single date. Neither do the frequency of your edits to this article have any bearing on interpretation of policy: WP:Verifiability is quite clear that secondary sources take priority over primary sources. There is a clear discrepancy between what Grant has said in interviews, what she has testified to, what census records state and what various biographies say (as detailed below). Betty Logan (talk) 20:48, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
In response to both of you, that there aren't secondary sources for 1928, that's been explained a few times. In two very recent live interviews, the interviewer stated both on TV (TCM) and the radio, that she was 24 when she got her award. Grant never added to or disputed the fact; she simply said nothing. The implication is clear. And the reason why those interviews are probably the most accurate was explained in the earlier section. The IDFF uses "1926 (some sources give 1928 or 1931)," although it was written over 20 years ago.
There are bios where the spelling of the person's name differs in various sources. We don't delete their name and turn it into a dispute.
But the guideline seems clear: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. The date sections below rely on primary and tertiary sources (encyclopedias.) The best secondary source so far seems to be the two interviews. In any case, I'm not hung up on whether she's now 88 or 91 or whatever, only that the bio looks compromised by its confusion. --Light show (talk) 21:29, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
A search of Google books throws up every single year between 1926 and 1931. Unless one of these secondary sources can confirm they have seen documented proof (i.e. a birth certificate, passport etc) then they do not trump any other secondary source. Betty Logan (talk) 21:56, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

List of potential sources for birth year[edit]

Verifying 1925[edit]

  • The 1930 census (Source Citation: Year: 1930; Census Place: Manhattan, New York, New York; Roll: 1577; Page: 11B; Enumeration District: 1027; Image: 588.0; FHL microfilm: 2341312. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1930 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2002. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Fifteenth Census of the United States, 1930. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1930. T626, 2,667 rolls) gives her age as 4 and 6/12 months (i.e. 4 ½ years old).
  • The 1940 census (Source Citation: Year: 1940; Census Place: New York, New York, New York; Roll: T627_2671; Page: 9A; Enumeration District: 31-1922. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1940 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. 2012. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Sixteenth Census of the United States, 1940. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1940. T627, 4,643 rolls) gives her age as 14. Although it should be noted that her first name is given as "Lyniva" in 1930 and "Lyoua" in 1940 ([3] and [4])
  • Jason Fraley. Screen legend dishes on Oscar, Emmys, Blacklist. July 6, 2015.

Verifying 1926[edit]

  • Robert Vaughn. Only Victims: A Study of Show Business Blacklisting. 1972 p 227
    Her HUAC testimony is primary and not independent. Still, it was under oath. --Ronz (talk) 23:07, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Verifying 1927[edit]

  • Roberts, Jerry. Encyclopedia of Television Film Directors, Scarecrow Press, 1st edition (June 5, 2009), Amazon Digital Services, Inc; ASIN: B009W3C7E8
  • Katz, Ephraim. The Film Encyclopedia, Harper Perennial (1998) p. 552 ISBN 0-06-273492-x Parameter error in {{isbn}}: Invalid ISBN.
    removed with Roberts(2009) (above)[5] --Ronz (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Encyclopedia Britannica. Lee Grant

Verifying 1928[edit]

Two secondary sources: She tacitly agreed she was born in 1928 in two recent interviews when the interviewers themselves stated that she was 24 when she received her Oscar: Audio interview with Gilbert Gottfried, Nov. 2016, and interview with Robert Osborne in 2014 (08:13) --Light show (talk) 06:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Those are primary, non-independent sources. --Ronz (talk) 01:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Please clarify how they are primary and not independent. They meet all the requirements for being a valid secondary source. --Light show (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
They are interviews, her own words. That's primary and not independent.
She's said a great deal about her age. To cherry-pick what she says in some interviews over others is an OR and POV violation. It's why we use secondary sources rather than primary: A reliable source may analyze her many statements and provide a summary or identify summarizing statements (which I think there actually may be, which is makes the POV violation even worse), but we don't. --Ronz (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
None of that is correct. She said nothing about her age. Nothing was cherry picked; it it was you would have found other secondary sources to include here. There is no undue weight per your tag. There is no POV violation; quite the opposite, your continual replacing reliable sources with tags is the violation. And since you've never edited the article, your drive-by edit warring with erroneous statements is disruptive and strange. I suggest you review the interviews this time to correct your wrong statements.--Light show (talk) 19:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
We disagree. I see nothing wrong in any of my statements, and without any evidence I see no reason to comment on them further. Consensus is made by focusing on content and policy, not on editors.
In BLP's, the burden of proof is strongly on those who wish to include the material. Please make a case that we can all agree upon. --Ronz (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
You see nothing wrong with any of the statements? Would you like me to point them out one by one again? No problem. Since you're presumably unable to watch or listen the interviews yourself, I can do that for you. --Light show (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Maybe some of the other real editors can join the discussion about this. Adding that the other primary editor at one time argued that 1928 was correct. --Light show (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Rms125a@hotmail.com has contributed extensively to the discussion already and quite obviously supports a solution that does not favor a specific date. What he did say or didn't say six years ago clearly does not reflect his current view. But if you want to bring in more *real* editors in I suggest you file an RFC. Betty Logan (talk) 20:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
With what rationale? It's obvious which of the sources listed above are either primary, secondary, or tertiary. Is there any question about any of those? The key question was already posted on the RS talk page, with over 1,000 watchers. -Light show (talk) 20:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
With the rationale that it is an option open to you in the pursuit of a consensus because you clearly have not got one here. Betty Logan (talk) 20:45, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Consensus about what? I've asked if there were any disputes about those sources. If you have an opinion, please give it. Do you dispute which of the sources are primary, secondary, or tertiary? If you do, please explain. --Light show (talk) 21:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
RfC or BLPN. We don't agree that these primary sources even belong. --Ronz (talk) 20:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Third request: Please give a basis for claiming that those obvious secondary sources are actually primary. And again, if primary sources don't belong, then remove all the others. --Light show (talk) 21:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
The primary and secondary nature of a source is determined by how they are used. If the interviewer says "Lee Grant was born in 1928..." then it is being used as a secondary source. If the question is put to Grant that she was born in 1928 and she says "That is correct" then it is being used as a primary source. Either way this is irrelevant. There are other secondary sources that put her year of birth at every year between 1926 and 1931 so there is no reason to prefer one over the other as you are inclined to do, and in respect to primary sources census records and testimony under oath to Congress are far more persuasive than a celeb interview. Betty Logan (talk) 21:25, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
The explanation is circular. First, she was not asked as a direct question and did not reply about her age. She tacitly agreed. She didn't say "that is correct." Second, I've been asking repeatedly for you and Ronz to provide other secondary sources, which you say there are (somewhere,) but continually evade the issue and don't give any. Third, we all apparently agree that primary sources don't belong, yet neither of you, or the missing regular editors, will do so. Fourth, you are violating RS guidelines and edit warring by deleting valid citations, in fact the only ones that are in fact secondary and reliable per guidelines. Fifth, you are fabricating a guideline to support removing obvious secondary sources claiming they are primary, yet have no issue with the massive 500-word group of primary sources in the article.--Light show (talk) 21:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
If you are using her "agreement" to source her age you are using information directly from her. That is the basic definition of a primary source. Secondly, you are violating WP:NPOV by promoting one date over another. Thirdly you are violating WP:NOCONSENSUS. And finally, you also persist in avoiding the fact that there are countless secondary sources that put her date of birth at other years besides 1928 and there is absolutely no reason to give your source primacy over other source. WP:Verifiability does not discount primary sources, it merely issues a preference for secondary sources. If you want to add your two interviews to the list of sources then do so, but do not use it as anexcuse to promote your favored date over other equally applicable dates. Betty Logan (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

Repeating yourself isn't adding anything new. You go further than Ronz, in fact, claiming "there are countless secondary sources," yet are again unable to provide any. As it is, there are only those two interviews that are secondary sources, so claiming that I am promoting one source over another is nonsense. I also replied to your consensus issue and you've again ignored the question. And as stated at the beginning of this entire discussion, I don't care what date is used and have no "favorite" dates, as you said.

Word games don't do it either: ie. By your reasoning, if you told someone that you believed they were from Mars, and they didn't reply, then the person effectively stated they were from Mars. --Light show (talk) 23:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Every year between 1925 and 1931 is now sourced to a secondary source. Now please stop flogging this WP:DEADHORSE or start an RFC. Betty Logan (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Only one of the four you added as source #1 is a secondary source. The other three are encyclopedias or a review and quotes from her book. The only other and much better secondary sources are the interviews you keep redefining as primary. --Light show (talk) 00:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
As has now been pointed out ad nausem: if you are attributing statements to her (as you are doing) then you are using the source as primary. If you are going to use your source in a secondary capacity then you have to focus on what the interviewer says. Also, Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources states Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other which is clearly the case here. Betty Logan (talk) 01:07, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
If you're getting tired of nauseum, try responding to the comment. You simply ignored the issues about your three primary/tertiary sources, and the fact that the interviewers claimed she was 24. You're Darwinistic replies are going nowhere. And once again, no one is attributing anything to statements she made. --Light show (talk) 01:57, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Sources that provide a range of years[edit]

  • Rickey, Carrie (July 17, 2014), "'I Said Yes to Everything,' by Lee Grant", SFGate.com, retrieved January 22, 2017, Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress. 
    Currently used in the first note. --Ronz (talk) 18:10, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Other - 1924?[edit]

  • We consider the extensive investigation by Muzilon, who concluded none of the above. Then we all go back to the stacks and find out if she was in fact really born or actually exists. --Light show (talk) 00:15, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
I tried to find birth records and didn't find anything because the records are difficult to access. I cannot verify what Muzilon found. --Ronz (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
And unlike some other jurisdictions, New York State birth certificates are private and are available only to the person named on the certificate, his/her parents, or else by court order. I believe this restriction is relaxed for births that occurred over 100 years ago, but we have a few years to wait for that. Muzilon (talk) 01:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
There appears to be 0 evidence to back up the 1924 birth year. Same goes for the 1930 and 1931 birth year.Radiohist (talk) 00:34, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Date of Met Opera debut in 1931[edit]

I've been looking for the year. I've not found a source that specifically gives it, but the facts seem to all point to '31. I think it would be OR to include it without a source clearly identifying the year, but it's worth looking for as such early life details are good indicators of actual birthdates. I'll track down and list a few of the sources I'd previously found. There are multiple sources quoting that she was either 3 or 4 when she debuted. --Ronz (talk) 00:23, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Possible solutions to year of birth[edit]

I'm not sure what's the best solution, but I don't see how the WT:IRS discussion will move us along.

Looking at the independent, primary sources, 1925 is clear, but the secondary sources verifying it are rather poor. Can we agree that she wasn't born after 1928, given she appeared on stage as a child in November 1931?

I don't recall seeing a reference that gives a range, but then we've not populated the sections above about what sources say what. I'll add a subsection specifically for sources that give ranges. I'm going to assume there are none in the meantime.

Grant is clearly not a reliable source for the year of her birth, so we shouldn't be presenting any quotes from her, interviews, etc, without a reliable independent secondary source that clearly demonstrates why such information should be presented.

We do have a source that specifically says, "Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s." I don't think we can go far wrong using that rather than a range. I don't expect anyone is going to argue for a specific year instead.

Note that we need to take care to avoid original research (especially combining information from multiple references to create or justify information) and neutrality problems (especially giving weight to information or sources where it is not due). --Ronz (talk) 18:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

The Darryl Lyman source in ref 1 gives a 1926–1930 range, but I can live with "mid 1920s" per SFGate. There is no shortage of secondary sources for any year from the latter half of the decade, but there is compelling primary source evidence for 1925, 1926 and 1927. The census records clearly indicate 1925 under a strict interpretation but this relies on her parents filling the form in correctly. It is possible they misread it and thought it required the age she would reach in that year (especially if their literacy was not good), or just rounded to her nearest age (my mother always did this) or had a motive for making her appear older i.e. getting her into school a year earlier. The HUAC transcripts clearly indicate 1926, but this information came from Grant herself so again is not infallible. The 1931 stage debut indicates she was 4 (which suggests a 1927 date) but the show coincided with her birthday so perhaps there was legitimate confusion there. I am not convinced by the 1928 date from the most recent interviews, since I don't really understand why she would add two years to her age and lie under oath to HUAC, so mid-1920s works for me. We have an explicit source for it (with a clear rationale for the confusion) and compelling primary sources back it up. Betty Logan (talk) 19:15, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
  • A range for the dob creates a Prima facie defective bio. I again propose that we select from the secondary sources, maybe supported by primary or tertiary, including her own statements. We choose a single dob for the bio, and include the range as a note, which we have. While the date may be incorrect, the bio will no longer look defective, and with added notes that error is neutralized. The largest actor print encyclopedia ever published (IDFF, mentioned earlier,) states: October 31, 1926 (some sources give 1928 or 1931). That's the most logical way to do it IMO, since it supports V, NPOV, and OR guidelines.
But if the consensus is that because some census forms and RSs have different dates, then all given dobs are questionable, which allows anyone in WP to use that as a precedence for other questionable bio details. For instance, if someone during their career has RSs showing contradictory facts about anything, then an editor can claim that neither statement can be mentioned except as a note. Result: Analysis paralysis. --Light show (talk) 19:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
A single date is not mandated, and I would say inappropriate in this case. We have a source that specifically states "mid-1920s" (with a supporting rationale for the confusion) so it satisifies WP:V. The SFGate article is also a secondary source which satisfies the requirement that secondary sources are given preference over primary sources. It also satisfies WP:DUE which requires each significant point of view to be proportionally represented i.e. it does not promote any single date, and is consistent with all the compelling primary sources, such as the census, her testimony and contemporary sources regarding her debut. Betty Logan (talk) 19:51, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
That SFGate article is essentially a primary source, since it's a review of her autobiography. There are older newspapers which include different dates. In two recent interviews, she supported 1928, and she had no reason to give an erroneous date since she no longer needed to pass for a teenager. --Light show (talk) 20:02, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
SFGate article is essentially a primary source I doubt you'll find any agreement to that.
she had no reason to give an erroneous date since... That's original research to promote a viewpoint not in any sources while attempting to discredit contradicting sources. She is simply not a reliable source for the year of her birth, and it would require exceptionally qualified sources to change that. --Ronz (talk) 20:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
OR is not an issue for a talk page. Every comment here, including all the ones you just made, are OR. BL argues that what two independent interviewers said were primary because she was at the interview. That's OR. A journalist reciting facts from her autobiography are obviously closer to being a primary source since the statements were not independent and simply reiterating a primary source. In fact, both your and BL's arguments are off-topic and digressions from the original and key issue, which I just stated again. --Light show (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
You don't appear to understand. Anything I can do to help? My point is that the interviews should be removed, and the only reason they are there is because of your OR. --Ronz (talk) 21:18, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you can help by staying on point. The topic has nothing to do with OR-land, mine or anyone's. Everyone agrees that no absolute correct date is likely to be found. Nor is one needed. And if you feel that primary sources should be removed, then remove them all, not just the one BL contrived with their own OR. --Light show (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
In her own autobiography she says she was 24 when she received her first oscar nomination which would put her dob at 1927. She states there was a 16-year age gap between her husband Arnold Manoff and herself, which suggests 1930. By your own logic she has no reason to lie about her age in her autobiography too but her statements continue to be contradictory and unreliable. Betty Logan (talk) 21:42, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
She also says in her biography that she was 4 when she debuted in L'Oracolo, which also gives 1927. The issue is that she's not reliable. Asking to have other sources removed goes back to my original concerns: removing due viewpoints based upon original research. --Ronz (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't actually mind keeping Light show's interviews provided they are kept in the note with all the other stuff. I think the note and the accompanying sources help build the the case for a non-specific date in the article itself. The fact is Grant is not reliable for this information which has probably infected secondary sources if they simply use the date she has provided. She even states she called in a favor from the mayor to wipe five years off her age on her driving license, so public records cannot be relied on fully either. I think we need a secondary source that is explicitly aware of Grant's unreliability in regards to her age. The SFGate article clearly meets this criteria: it is also not acting in a primary source capacity because it does not simply parrott facts from Grant's book. The author acknowledges the discrepancies and has deduced she was born in the "mid-1920s" i.e. it has evaluated the primary source and drawn its own conclusions, which is the very definition of a secondary source. Betty Logan (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
The statements by TCM's Robert Osborne and the radio interview, were so far the most and only independent ones we have. Someone reviewing her book and using that as a source for their news story, is being minimally independent. Especially when they didn't claim they did any research into her dob. But BL went further, since she never said in her autobiography that she was 24, contrary to what BL said.
So thank you both for clearing things up. You just proved my point and supported my worst fears. Hopefully some serious and neutral referees can put on a uniform. You've both turned this into a teamish-like discussion, with no winners, only losers. --Light show (talk) 22:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
To quote her directly: "I’d been nominated for my first Academy Award in 1952 for Detective Story — I won in 1976 for Shampoo. Twenty-four years later, exactly my age at the time of the first nomination." If she was not 24 at the age of the first nomination how exactly do you interpret that sentence? Betty Logan (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough. Then we can just use 1928, based on her recent bio and statements from two recent interviewers, and include as a note or in parentheses, other dates. Then WP won't be the only encyclopedia that won't give a reasonable dob. --Light show (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Her nomination date and age implies she was born in 1927, not 1928. Also, her same bio suggests her husband Arnold Manoff is 16 years older which would put her dob at 1930. Then there is her testimony in which she says she was born in 1926. As has been pointed out to you endlessly now, Grant is not a reliable source for her age. How many times does this need to be spelt out to you? I really think you should take a break from the article because you have clearly lost your objectivity. Betty Logan (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
There's no consensus for 1928 here, nor in the sources.
Anyone against stating "mid-1920's" rather than the range we currently have? --Ronz (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I strongly support it. Light show won't though and it takes more than a single person majority to forge a consensus. Maybe an RFC is the way to go on this? Betty Logan (talk) 23:34, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Objectively, you are both digressing into clearly pointless directions. Truth, is not the issue; the bio needs a date. Yet you keep drifting off onto side-roads. --Light show (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Can you give a clear reason, preferably backed with policies or guidelines, on why you prefer a date range instead? --Ronz (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Common sense. "Mid-1920s" sounds ridiculous for a bio's dob. Plus it's not even true. Why not "early 20th century"? Then again, even Jesus and Moses have dates, not ranges. --Light show (talk) 23:43, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
BLP requires that we cannot simply follow "common sense". Will you revert if it is changed to "mid-1920s", knowing that we have a source that says exactly that? [7] --Ronz (talk) 23:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Likely. I trust common sense. --Light show (talk) 23:59, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Would you like to make an alternate proposal? --Ronz (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Reread my above comments, many of which include one. --Light show (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Please identify proposals you think should be included in an RfC. You might want to make it/them in the article so it's clear what you're proposing then self-revert back to the current version. --Ronz (talk) 00:24, 24 January 2017 (UTC)────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

The question should be whether your your "bold" edit should be reverted. Expanding the notes is OK, although the massive list of different dates is absurd and could be tightened. It makes the bio harder to dig through with excessive minutia. IMO, (OR alert!) hardly anyone will care whether she's now 89 or 90 or whatever. And again, any reasonably supported date is fine with notes. Recall that the original issue was whether a single date was best, and which one. There was a 2 to 1 consensus, by the main editors, to use 1928. I personally didn't expect your way of commenting.--Light show (talk) 00:49, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Two-to-one is not a consensus, and if you accept it as one then this issue is resolved and we install "mid-1920s". As for the issue of reverting, if this article is to be reverted to the WP:STATUSQUO then it should restore the 1925–1929 range that was in place at the beginning of the year before you attempted to impose a single date. If you want to extend the upper-bound back to 1929 be my guest. Betty Logan (talk) 01:18, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Considering that those three editors added over half the text in the bio, and the next 3 after them are no longer active, it was a clear consensus. The decision was to include a date with footnotes. Nothing was "imposed," as there was a long discussion among the three editors. We don't need the drama. --Light show (talk) 01:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
There wasn't agreement between three editors though. The most active editor on this article and second largest contributor disagreed and you claimed a consensus with a majority of one. Also, it was you who sought outside intervention and I bet you wouldn't be complaining if third-party opinion was going your way. Betty Logan (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The discussion was open to anyone. And the second largest contributor, if we excluded their massive census citations and other cites focused only on the dob, would actually have been the third largest contributor. --Light show (talk) 02:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

But I don't feel an RfC is needed. Both you and BL are drive-byes who had never contributed the the bio. I feel a self-revert on your part is the simplest solution, and the discussion can continue. If so few of the 1,000-plus watchers at IRS wanted to comment after two weeks, it's unlikely any casual RfC editors will add much. --Light show (talk) 01:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't understand your position. You already reverted the my edit that you identified [8].
So no alternate proposal at this time? No policies or guidelines to discuss? No sources to discuss? --Ronz (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't know about you Ronz, but I am getting a strong WP:OWN vibe here, with this editor defending his position as the "main" contributor and accusing neutral editors as "drive bys". I am generally happy to make concessions to the main editors over stylistic decisions, but all editors are entitled to review content in regards to WP:V and WP:NPOV. We are going to need some wider input. Betty Logan (talk) 17:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Whatever the problems, I think an RfC is a good next step. WT:IRS is not a venue for discussing article disputes, so we shouldn't expect discussions there to resolve anything. --Ronz (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Of all the reasonable options, you both have essentially limited the probability of getting RfCs. You've created a massive amount of off-topic and mostly irrelevant smoke out of what was a small question. This discussion, thanks to you guys, is now almost 8,000 words, excluding all the links and citations. Which, BTW, makes the discussion 4 times the length of the bio itself. That blast of hot air about some opera debut alone, would prevent me from expecting or imposing on any neutral editor the task of trudging through the dust storm you've created. As for claiming neither of you still understand my position, which has been stated over a dozen times just over the last few days, what can I say that's not implied? --Light show (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

RfC about Lee Grant's date of birth[edit]

There is a strong consensus that given the multitude of sources claiming differently about her birth-date, and a general inability to pin-down a single year as correct, Mid-1920s is the best option available at our disposal.Winged Blades Godric 16:31, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lee Grant is a famous actress who was born on October 31, some time between 1925 and 1931 according to secondary and tertiary sources, and 1925 and 1928 according to primary sources. It is the year that is contentious. Census records state she was 4 in 1930 and 14 in 1940. We can independently corroborate that Grant made her stage debut in November 1931, and in her autobiography she claims to have been 4 years old at the time (her debut was just a few weeks after birthday). She was nominated for an oscar in March 1952, at the age of 24 according to her autobiography. She was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee and promptly blacklisted for refusing to testify against her husband. At her hearing she gave her date of birth as October 31, 1926. She lost ten years of her career and after resuming it undertook a deception in regards to her age to obtain work. She admits to persuading the mayor to alter her date of birth on her driving licence to knock five years off her age. In some recent interviews the year given has been 1928, although such a date is inconsistent with the ages she gives in her autobiography. The question I put to the community is How should Grant's date of birth be presented in the article? Betty Logan (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Options[edit]

These are the various proposals:

  • 1925–1931: This would cover all dates in all the secondary and tertiary sources[secondary/tertiary 1]
  • 1925–1928: This would cover all the dates that appear in both secondary sources and implied by primary sources i.e. there does not appear to be any primary source evidence of the 1929–1931 dates.[primary 1] Given that her stage debut was in 1931 the 1930s dates seem very implausible.
  • 1925–1927. See discussion below.
  • 1928: Light show claims two recent interviews with Robert Osborne of TCM and Gilbert Gottfried corroborate 1928 as Grant's year of birth. The year is not given in the interviews, only her age (24) at the time of oscar nomination and Cannes win (which occurred between March and May 1952 respectively).[8][9]
  • 1927: See discussion below.
  • Mid-1920s: Per the SFGate article. To quote: "Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress."[10]

References

  1. ^ Grant's date of birth is October 31 but there is discord between sources over year, giving every year between 1925 and 1931.
    • Mid-1920s: Rickey, Carrie (July 17, 2014), "'I Said Yes to Everything,' by Lee Grant", SFGate.com, retrieved January 22, 2017, Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress. 
    • 1925: Fraley, Jason (2015-07-06). "Screen legend dishes on Oscar, Emmys, Blacklist". WTOP. Retrieved January 18, 2017. 
    • 1926–1930: Lyman, Darryl (1999). Great Jews in the Performing Arts. Jonathan David Publishers. p. 124. 
    • 1927: "Movie Memory Lee Grant 1976". New York Daily News. December 1, 2002. Retrieved January 22, 2017. 
    • 1927: "Lee Grant | American actress and director". Britannica.com. Retrieved January 18, 2017. 
    • 1928, 1929, 1931: Block, Maxine; Rothe, Anna Herthe; Candee, Marjorie Dent; Moritz, Charles (1975). Current Biography Yearbook. H.W. Wilson Company. p. 150. 
    • Aged 24 in April/May 1952: Lee Grant (October 2016). "Lee Grant". Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast! (Interview). Interview with Gilbert Gottfried. 11 minutes 41 seconds. Retrieved January 27, 2017. Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then? 

References

  1. ^ While secondary sources put Grant's year of birth between 1925 and 1931, various primary sources place it between 1925 and 1928:
    • United States Public Records (under the name Lee Grant Manoff) give Grant's date of birth as October 31, 1925.[1]
    • Census records indicate that Grant—under her birth name of Lyova Haskell Rosenthal—was aged 4 at the 1930 census,[2] and 14 at the 1940 census.[3]
    • A July 1933 shipping manifesto puts Grant's age at 7 years of age and the year of birth 1926.[4]
    • Grant gave her date of birth as October 31, 1926 in testimony to the House Un-American Activities Committee.[5][6]
    • In her autobiography I Said Yes to Everything (2014), Grant states she was twenty-four years old when she received her first Oscar nomination at the 24th Academy Awards, held in March 1952.[7] Grant reiterated this claim in an interview with Robert Osborne of Turner Classic Movies in 2014.[8]
    • In another interview in 2016, Gilbert Gottfried also put her age at twenty-four at the time of the Cannes win.[9] Grant has admitted to being very uncomfortable about publications concerning her age.[need quotation to verify][9]

References

  1. ^ "United States Public Records, 1970-2009," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJZ3-MSLD : 23 May 2014), Lee Grant Manoff, Residence, Wilmington, Delaware, United States; a third party aggregator of publicly available information.
  2. ^ The 1930 census (Source Citation: Year: 1930; Census Place: Manhattan, New York, New York; Roll: 1577; Page: 11B; Enumeration District: 1027; Image: 588.0; FHL microfilm: 2341312. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1930 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2002. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Fifteenth Census of the United States, 1930. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1930. T626, 2,667 rolls) gives her age as 4 and 6/12 months (i.e. 4 ½ years old). (NOTE: a) the census always requests the age of the individual being enumerated as of his or her last birthday; b) the first name is misspelled, as "Lyniva"). View original document at FamilySearch
  3. ^ The 1940 census (Source Citation: Year: 1940; Census Place: New York, New York, New York; Roll: T627_2671; Page: 9A; Enumeration District: 31-1922. Source Information: Ancestry.com. 1940 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc. 2012. Original data: United States of America, Bureau of the Census. Sixteenth Census of the United States, 1940. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1940. T627, 4,643 rolls) gives her age as 14 in April 1940 (NOTE: a) the census always requests the age of the individual being enumerated as of his or her last birthday; b) the first name is misspelled as "Lyoua"). View original document at FamilySearch and FamilyTreeNow.
  4. ^ "New York, New York Passenger and Crew Lists, 1909, 1925-1957," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24V3-24H : 2 October 2015), Lyova Rosenthal, July 12, 1933; citing Immigration, New York, New York, United States, NARA microfilm publication T715 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).
  5. ^ United States. Congress. House. Un-American Activities (1958). Hearings. 2. United States Government Publishing Office. p. 2596. 
  6. ^ Vaughn, Robert (1972). Only Victims: A Study of Show Business Blacklisting. Hal Leonard Corporation. p. 227. Retrieved August 13, 2016. 
  7. ^ Grant, Lee (July 8, 2014). "Read an Excerpt From Lee Grant's Memoir About Her Steamy Shampoo Days With Warren Beatty". Vulture.com. Retrieved January 23, 2017. 
  8. ^ a b Lee Grant (2014). "Conversation With Lee Grant, A". Interview with Robert Osborne. Turner Classic Movies. 7 minutes 50 seconds. Retrieved January 27, 2017. By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952 
  9. ^ a b c Lee Grant (October 2016). "Lee Grant". Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast! (Interview). Interview with Gilbert Gottfried. 11 minutes 41 seconds. Retrieved January 27, 2017. Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then? 
  10. ^ Rickey, Carrie (July 17, 2014), "'I Said Yes to Everything,' by Lee Grant", SFGate.com, retrieved January 22, 2017, Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress. 

Survey[edit]

  • Mid-1920s with 1925–1927 as my second favorite solution. I prefer the "mid-1920s" soultion because this is something we can explicitly source using the SFGate article so satisfies WP:V. It also provides a rationale for the confusion over the date and along with the 1925–1927 option is the solution which best satisfies WP:DUE. It is clear that Grant is inconsistent–especially post-HUAC–and even public records are tainted since she has used her standing to have them altered. I find the 1925, 1926 and 1927 dates the most compelling. Census records (dating back to April 1930) suggest 1925 if they were filled in correctly, but her mother was a Russian immigrant so it is entirely possible they were not. Grant states she made her stage debut at the age of 4 and the date of her debut can be independtly corroborated as November 1931, which was just after her birthday. This would suggest a date of 1927, although given the proximity of her birthday (i.e. possibly 4 going on 5) 1926 is plausible too. She was nominated for an oscar in the spring of 1952 and Grant has said she was 24 when she was nominated, which would again put her year of birth at 1927. She testified under oath to Congress (at her HUAC hearing) she was born October 31, 1926, and this would have been prior to the incident which caused her to fabricate her age. In her autobiography she states the age difference between her husband Arnold Manoff and herself was 16 years, which would put her year of birth at 1930, which is very unlikely given that we know for a fact she made her stage debut in November 1931. The exact year is impossible to pin down so I think "mid-1920s" is the most appropriate solution. Betty Logan (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Mid-1920s per discussions, references, and past consensus on how to address such disputes (Rebecca De Mornay and especially Lydia_Cornell). If someone could find a birth record that states any year between 1925 and 1927, then I think we could make a good case to use that year. --Ronz (talk) 00:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Mid-1920s. This seems the best compromise possible from the evidence given above. If a specific date range is required, I suppose 1925–1927 would be the best choice. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:59, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Mid-1920s For lead and infobox, though I note that the 'notes' already give the full picture. Pincrete (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
  • 1926. I commend Betty Logan for her thorough research on this. This sort of thing does come up now and then. I sometimes run actors through census records and find discrepencies. In this case we don't have to even deal with it, as Ms. Grant herself said, under oath, that her birthdate was 1926. So that would be my personal preference. We can provide other sources in footnotes of course, as well as various other material, in footnotes. However, we do want to be careful not to give undue emphasis to her birthdate in her bio, even in the footnotes. There is that danger. The eye wanders down and there is a lot of text showing her to have fudged her birthdate. So we might want to ponder that. Coretheapple (talk) 14:10, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Mid-1920s - Summoned by bot. It doesn't seem to me that a specific year is absolutely necessary given her circumstances. Rather than providing actual years such as 1925-1931 (which is the timeframe I'd support if we were to include an exact year) an adequate compromise would be to generalize since there are discrepancies. Meatsgains (talk) 13:25, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Mid-1920s - Summoned by bot. This seems to be the best option for lead and inbox. --DynaGirl (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

@Ronz and Light show: I have been looking at the two interviews that Light show has been repeatedly bringing up as "proof" that Grant was born in 1928, and have discvered he has been misrepresenting the contents of the sources, namely the two interviews with TCM's Robert Osborne and an interview with Gilbert Gottfried. I will reproduce them here for convenience:

  • Lee Grant (2014). "Conversation With Lee Grant, A". Interview with Robert Osborne. Turner Classic Movies. 7 minutes 50 seconds. Retrieved January 27, 2017. By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952 
  • Lee Grant (October 2016). "Lee Grant". Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast! (Interview). Interview with Gilbert Gottfried. 11 minutes 41 seconds. Retrieved January 27, 2017. Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then? 

Here are some observations:

  1. Let's start with the obvious. Neither interview provides 1928 as Grant's year of birth (at least not at the timestamps Light show provides). Both interviews reiterate the claim that Grant was 24 at the time of her Oscar nomination and Cannes win for Detective Story (1951 film) (corroborating the claim from her autobiography). The 24th Academy Awards (the iteration that Grant was nominated in were held in March 1952) while the 1952 Cannes Film Festival was held during April & May 1952. Clearly if Grant was born October 21, 1928 she would not have been 24 at the time of her win, she would have been 23. She would have turned 24 until October 1952. If we accept October 31 as her correct date of birth Grant's age would imply that 1927 is her year of birth.
  2. The claim by Light show that Robert Osborne is "independent" is inaccurate. Osborne is interviewing Grant, and as you can see from the citation above it is Grant herself that provides her age. In this capacity the interview is a primary source and is in no way independent and should be treated the same as all other primary sources.
  3. Light show's claim that Gottfried's interview counts as a secondary source holds water (since it is Gottfried that supplies the age in the interview and not Grant) but nevertheless it corrborates Grant's age at the time of her nomination and Cannes win (24) not the year of her birth.
  4. I explicitly pointed out that Grant's age of 24 at the time of her oscar nomination in early 1952 implied that 1927 was her year of birth, not 1928. Nevertheless Light show subsequently used Grant's claim from her autobiography about her age at the time of the nomination as "proof" for 1928. I really don't know what to make of this action. I had already pointed out his math was incorrect but yet he ignored this and misrepresented Grant's claim about her age to suggest her year of birth was 1928.

The very basis of Light show's assertion that Grant was born in 1928 is flawed. Both the interviews and her autobiography state she was was 24 when she was nominated for an oscar and when she won at Cannes. Even aside from the fact Grant is not a reliable source for her date of birth, taken at face value Grant's claims we can mathematically conclude she was born before May 1928 (either early 1928 or some time in 1927). I guess we could have saved ourselves a lot of time by checking Light show's sources, but I hope now he will give up on this doomed crusade to install 1928 when his own sources imply a 1927 date! Betty Logan (talk) 22:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Great! 1927 is fine with me, since the only issue I've ever cared about was having a date, any date. In fact I'm now rummaging through my own stuff to double-check on my age. I think Boswell would have been impressed, since he wrote, "Let me only observe, as a specimen of my trouble, that I have sometimes been obliged to run half over London in order to fix a date correctly." BTW, I never considered any of the sources as being "proof" of her age, only a RS. Maybe you can strike all those old "proof" statements. --Light show (talk) 01:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for others to respond. I don't see how we can meet BLP while asserting one specific year without confirmed birth records. --Ronz (talk) 15:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

The original arguments against selecting a single year still stand. All this does is affect some of the choices in the RFC i.e. option 2 should be tightened to 1925–1927, while the third option should be changed from 1928 to 1927. Betty Logan (talk) 23:18, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Light show. Since the "24 years old in 1952" sentence has been documented, we should put 1927 as her year of birth. And at the same mention all the others years cited.Radiohist (talk) 21:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
All the dates in contention here have been documented. Betty Logan (talk) 22:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm disappointed with the response. Shall we leave it open, try to get it closed, try to get more responses somehow, something else? Is there a standard way to try to get further response? --Ronz (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I can only repeat that the three primary editors of the article discussed the issue for a long time, and there was agreement by two of them to include a single date and put the other cited dates as a note. Your unilateral "bold" revert soon after joining the comments was improper IMO. You and Betty Logan rammed the change through without a reasonable discussion. And all the subsequent comments digressed from the original issue, of whether a single date was better than having a range of dates. I assume that if there were multiple spellings of her name, she would have also been nameless in the article. --Light show (talk) 23:50, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The only person who rammed anything through was you, when you claimed a 2-1 majority as a "consensus" despite the objections of the editor who opposed you. No matter how you dress it up a 2-1 majority is not a consensus. If it were then we would not be having this RFC. The date you installed in the article was not even consistent with your own sources, so you are in no position to lecture us. Prior to your changes the article had a date range and that format has been temporarily restored to the article until we have a more permanent solution. As for the RFC, the emerging consensus seems to be to use "mid-1920s" but I would let it run the full recommended 30 days and then request a formal closure. Betty Logan (talk) 01:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
30 days takes us to February 22, if I'm counting correctly. Fine with me. --Ronz (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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April 2017 on-camera interview: Grant states she was born in 1925[edit]

Not to rehash a topic that has clearly been discussed to death, but I came across an on-camera interview from April 2017 where the reporter asks Grant is asked what year she was born to put the question to rest, and she tells him she was "outed" as being born in 1925, and confirms that as her birth year. If the previous years she's given were to purposely make her seem younger, I cannot think of a reason why she would admit she was born in 1925 (as it dates her the oldest) if it weren't true. The link is here: [9] Not sure if it's worth anything, but I thought I'd put it here for consideration/documentation. It may prove useful at some point. --Drown Soda (talk) 05:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Update: My mistake; I just now realized in the clip she says she's 90, but that her birth year is 1925, which does not make sense. Just more complications. Yikes. Discard the above I suppose --Drown Soda (talk) 05:57, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
@Drown Soda: Thankyou, that video is interesting and par for the course with Grant. Various public records seem to imply the 1925 date. However, Grant herself testified to Congress that she was born in 1926, and that was before she started to lie about her age. In her autobiography from 2014 she stated that she was 24 when she won her oscar, which would put her dob in 1927. And in that video her age (90) would indicate she was born in 1926 and yet she states 1925. Unfortunately I don't think we can really put much stock in what she says on this subject. She was almost certainly born in 1925 or 1926, with 1927 an outside possibility, but I am not sure we will ever pin her exact age down. Betty Logan (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
@Betty Logan: further to our discussion near the top of this page, I have updated the "primary sources" endnote with the fresh evidence from the New York City birth index, which also supports the 1925 date. If someone wants to open a new RfC, that's fine by me.--Muzilon (talk) 11:41, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
So one more primary source for '25, plus an interview that's inconsistent? I wish we had more... --Ronz (talk) 16:44, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I am not interested in the video; it falls in the same catgeory as all the other dates Grant has given. She is not a reliable source for her dob. As for this birth registration/certificate, if we have a physical record from 1925 then that would be definitive IMO. A census from 1930 or a ship mainfest from 1940 can get the dates wrong, but an actual record dating from 1925 would settle the matter more or less. We really need to see the scan to assess its authenticity before moving forward with another RFC. If we are going to pin down an exact date we have to be sure we are right. Betty Logan (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Please note that the NYC birth index just gives the name, date of birth, and NYC certificate registration number. (See here for an example.) The full certificate itself is not on Ancestry.com. As I've mentioned elsewhere on this page, New York birth certificates are protected by privacy laws for (I think) 100 years.--Muzilon (talk) 22:08, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

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