Talk:Legazpi, Albay

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ABC[edit]

Does this ABC station stand for the American Broadcasting Company?? Jaberwocky6669 00:02, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

No, there's also a Philippine television station named ABC. TheCoffee 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What does it stand for? Jaberwocky6669 05:38, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...I couldn't find out. It may just not stand for anything at all, aside from being the first 3 letters of the alphabet. Try Googling for "ABC 5" Philippines TheCoffee 18:43, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, it stands for Associated Broadcasting Company. I only needed to know in order to clear the page from a disambiguation page. Thank you tremendously! Jaberwocky6669 02:51, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Another Legazpi[edit]

There is another Legazpi to the Northwest near Lingayen Gulf. Encarta's maps show that city as Legazpi and this one as Legaspi. I'm reading my uncle's memoir of his experience in WWII and he states that the Japanese landed at Legaspi, Lingayen and Desmortes. Since the other Legazpi is inland, I figure the landing must have been at this one.

May I say ascribing to Legazpi as "de facto capital of the Bicol Region" is rather a difficult & baseless proposition, a preposterous claim considering the presence of a more preeminent & progressive Bicolano city in Naga (per international and national recognition awards received, no. of bank offices and size of total deposits per central bank statistics, infrastructure, etc.) From my very frequent travels to, readings, and personal knowledge of the two places, it would certainly appear that Legazpi is anything but the "de facto capital".--Bicololdtimer 07:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Bicololdtimer. However, I must point out that Legazpi is effectively the capital of the Bicol Region and it is not "baseless" to say so because all the Region's government offices are located there. Furthermore, nearly all the Region's government business is conducted in the city. The last time I checked they haven't been magically teleported to Pili, Camarines Sur, much less Naga City, much as I admire these two places. No matter how "progressive" and "preeminent" you may think Naga is, it is still not the Region's capital. On the other hand, it IS baseless to claim that Naga City is "undeniably the most progressive city" in the Region without any references or sources to back up this claim. It also violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy as this sort of language is far from neutral. I would also like to point out, with all due respect, that your personal observations based on your travels are NOT sufficient indicators of a city's "progressiveness". --87.194.3.169 21:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to bicololdtimer, he is a practical tourist, so-to-speak. As an Irish-American oldtimer in the Bicol, too, travelling and doing business all the time, too, I feel bicololdtimer says what he sees, which is practical. But I tend to believe him. Naga is indeed most progressive of any place in Bicol and that includes Legazpi where I've resided since past 2 decades. I think Wikipedia does not constrain contributions that simply inform and are verifiable. Why don't you come over to see for yourself? If I say and write here that Mayon volcano is a beauty to behold because of its perfect cone, you must be joking if you require me to present "references and sources to back up this claim". People may not have time for that other than as what bicololdtimer says, he reads, hears, sees from his travels, etc..--Frank maloy 06:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Frank Maloy, aka as the "Irish-American oldtimer" (in other words, not the same person as Bicololdtimer, ahem...), I'm afraid the analogy with Mayon Volcano simply does not work. Personal descriptions of Mayon are inherently subjective and are of course not objectively verifiable. However, the same cannot be said for a city's claims of "progressiveness" if this is understood in an economic or social sense for which data do exist and should be called on to support such claims. "Why don't you come over and see for yourself" - it would be insane if we all did this for each Wikipedia article - I don't think it's a very "practical" methodology, do you? --87.194.3.169 15:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique albeit paranoiac point of view. You must be told the cityhood of Legazpi always involved our dear sweet little town of Daraga. Largest city, baloney! Even the writer's claim of Legazpi as so-called top tourist destination happened because of Mayon volcano, which for your education is better visited in Daraga. You want references and sources, then read enough. Ms. Ravanilla herself Regional DOT director has time and again reported in various fora that our neighbors Camarines Sur and Naga City have surpassed us and are the top tourist destinations since 2006. Why don't you call her up to tell her she lies? So let’s cut the BS. Wake up! Legazpi can’t go it alone unlike the other city. Reming told it all = it showed our weakness while showing the other's strength in time of crisis. So where is our so-called progress? I don't see it in Legazpi, do you? Your so-called political center came into being helped by a presidential fiat, and not because Legazpi by itself was a meritorious location. Were it not for the presidential desire to assure Mayon Imperial Hotel's viability, then it would not have occured at all. If you don't know that or have the impudence to refute it, then you're hopeless. As it is, we could have been saved from the disaster, inconvenience, and embarrassment of hosting so many gov't. offices under eternal threat of Mayon, which, mind you again, is not in Legazpi.--Metro Daraga 13:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


I will not even dignify the above puerile outburst with any response, it speaks for itself.

I will however, engage with constructive comments from those who do not have multiple personalities. --87.194.3.169 21:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

What a classic flight! LOL! I think I’ll agree with you my talk really speaks for itself as it is full of facts about Legazpi you can’t even refute. LOL! But what is it really with people suddenly faced with incontrovertible facts taking to flight? Simple! Answer comes from a well-known author: “It is the mark of a weak mind that puts to flight from all substantive discussions. It’s owner is at once ludicrous and uninspiring, childish and of the race of small minds.” Finally, please never attempt to dignify. With the kind of thinking you have exhibited, you are simply not up to it. But let me promise you to be nicer if you'll try being smart. LOL! (By the way, am female (metro daraga), so your use of the word “puerile” coming from the Latin root word “puer” meaning “boy” is inappropriate. Be careful, you might meet truly dignified people who think deep.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metro Daraga (talkcontribs) 13:49, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

sorry, forgot to sign my talk, previous was mine.--Metro Daraga 13:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Methinks someone is trying very hard to attract my attention...I thought this was obvious, but apparently it needs to be reiterated: this page is for discussions relevant to Legazpi City only. It is NOT meant to be a personal diary or blog of someone's psychological or emotional issues. I'm sorry but I cannot get involved in this. Please look elsewhere for a babysitter, thank you. --87.194.3.169 23:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced[edit]

After assiduously reviewing the article, I am constrained to tag it as unreferenced. A lot of the information given are simply inaccurate. For one, alluding to Legazpi as de facto capital of Bicol is simply not right, even outrageous. The city may be the location of several government regional offices, but that does not make it capital of the Bicol region which does not exist strictly as a political entity. These regional offices have no administrative supervision over the individual local government units (LGU’s) in the region. There is no regional government/ governor that would locate a capital effectively defining a seat or center of political power fixed by law. In this light, the description “political center” may still be acceptable, but “capital” would really be inaccurate. Secondly, Legazpi as “academic” center is a hilarious, trying-hard description. (Perhaps because the admittedly more progressive Bicol city, Naga, with 6 universities has already owned to the tag “educational center of Bicol” so our editor had to be creative and mustered “academic”. Funny.) The 3 universities cited are in fact only 2 since Divine Word College is not even a university. Bicol University came into being with 2 of its original colleges located in my own hometown of Daraga. With only 2 universities, how can the city be the regional “academic” center? Finally, declaring the number 80 as the number of schools in the city is really so simple and easy. Perhaps the tag “elementary and secondary school center of Bicol” would be more appropriate in that case if we can prove it. Another erroneous attribution is Legazpi’s being THE top tourist destination in Bicol. Latest official Dept. of Tourism (DOT) statistics show Camarines Sur/ Naga City with Camarines Sur Watersports Complex and various conventions & meets have surpassed Legazpi and/or Albay by a mile in tourist arrivals since last year 2006. Please refer to following site http://www.wowphilippines.com.ph/dot/statistics.asp for this. Our provincial and city leaders better wake up! This is a wake-up call, so may I invite editors to come forward and join hands in giving only correct information on this fair city to give justice to what to me is certainly Bicol’s cleanest, if not most beautiful city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metro Daraga (talkcontribs) 06:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Metro Daraga, I'm afraid your reading comprehension is very poor, despite your claim of having read it "assiduously." I might give you 2 out of 10 if I'm feeling very generous. 1)The qualifier de facto means "actual" irrespective of whether or not it is legally sanctioned as such. At no point does the article claim that it is the de jure capital, which is how you misread it. 2) The fact that a university has other campuses located in neighboring towns/cities does not take away the fact that the main campus is still in the same location. If we apply your logic to UP, it will no longer count as one of Metro Manila's universities since it has campuses all over the country! This is clearly illogical. 3) Please give us the pleasure of naming those SIX UNIVERSITIES (!) of your beloved Naga City - if they exist. 4) Ironically, the statistics you quote actually disprove your claim - the figures for Naga include the rest of Camarines Sur while the figures for Legazpi are for that city only. This is a flagrant case of statistical manipulation. Furthermore, the gross visitor figures for Naga were based mostly on religious pilgrims who come to this city in September from other parts of Bicol (including Legazpi) and, in most conventional measures, would not be counted as "tourists". 5) Your reference to Naga as "the cleanest, most beautiful city" is clearly your personal opinion and you provide no sources for these yourself. 6) Please focus your energies on improving the Naga City article, rather than vandalizing this one. --87.194.3.169 23:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

To the previous poster, your slip is showing for all the worldwide web to see. Your reading comprehension is the one that is very poor. Needless to say, our contributions should be based on facts, not conjectures. 1) it is a fact there is no regional goverment in Bicol, so how can there be any regional capital? Whether it is de facto or de jure is beside my point that there can be no regional capital. Can you name a kingdom without a king? So who is this regional governor of Bicol who holds office in your supposedly regional capital of Legazpi? 2) you have not denied 2 of Bicol University's campuses were derived from Daraga. You have not denied Legazpi has only 2 universities, not 3. So how can Legazpi be the regional “academic” center?! Naga has indeed 6 universities located in the city. If you don’t know that, then your research is obviously very inferior especially since even the worldwide web says so and all the websites of the universities concerned say so, too. Why should I give you the pleasure of naming those 6 universities?! Find out for yourself so you’ll learn. Just a hint: even with three (3), Naga still has more, ha-ha! A further play: 2 begin with A, 2 begin with U, and 2 have notable P’s in their names. 3) Stating the fact that Naga is more progressive than Legazpi does not mean Naga is beloved to me. For your information, I am from Daraga, almost a Legazpeño, too. But I am not a wide-awake dreamer who dreams of Legazpi as regional capital and the top tourist destination when the fact is, it is not. WIKIPEDIA is all about facts, not de facto’s. 4) Those tourist statistics are not mine, they are the DOT’s which is the authority in this regard. You cannot deny the fact that Camarines Sur/ Naga surpassed Albay/ Legazpi in tourist arrivals since 2006, as I’ve said. The DOT regional director who is even based in Legazpi City has said it so many times, so please vent your ire on her for telling the sad, awful truth. 5) Finally, I never said Naga is “the cleanest, most beautiful city" of Bicol, DID I? I said it was Legazpi so I was even inviting editors to come forward and join hands in giving only correct information on Legazpi, “this fair city to give justice to what to me is certainly Bicol’s cleanest, if not most beautiful city”. Read very well and open your mind. WIKIPEDIA IS ALL ABOUT FACTS, so please stop spreading conjectures. Otherwise you would be guilty yourself of vandalism for spreading half-truths and misinformation which Wikipedia readers don’t deserve for they deserve only facts and the whole truth. Stop dreaming.--Metro Daraga 07:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Metro Daraga/BicolOldtimer or whatever you want to call yourself today...I have said this many times before, but obviously everything must be repeated to you several times for you to understand it. So I will repeat: I am not a babysitter. Please look elsewhere for this service. "Our contributions should be based on facts"....I nearly fell off my chair when I read this - so please tell us all - what are the FACTS that support your claim that Naga now has SIX universities? You also seem incapable of understanding this other FACT: DOT's figures lumps TOGETHER Naga City and the ENTIRE province of Camarines Sur but Legazpi's figures are for that city ALONE. Therefore, we cannot make an accurate comparison using these figures. Is that clear enough for you? As for the rest of your post, frankly I have no time to read such incoherent garbage. Your grammatical errors are a great advertisement for Naga as the educational capital of the region! I have also said that this page is about Legazpi and issues relevant to this city, not Naga, or any other city. Unfortunately, you also have a hard time understanding this. "I am a wide-awake dreamer who dreams"....OK I'm glad you admitted that...thank you for sharing your hallucinations with us, but as you yourself have said, Wikipedia articles must be based on facts, and not the result of hallucinations/trances. I totally agree with you that Wikipedia readers deserve better than this. --87.194.3.169 13:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

To the previous poster, I think you are resorting to cheap crap, and so your slip is all the more glaring for all the worldwide web to see, ha-ha! In the 1st place, WIKIPEDIA is not a grammar class so what grammatical errors are you talking about?! Secondly, your halucination that people who don't share the same views as yours as being the same persons is really cheap. Grow up, man, this world deserves something better. Your innuendoes about DOT's problem should be better addressed towards that entity. I only said Camarines Sur/ Naga City surpassed Albay/ Legazpi in tourist arrivals and that's a fact per DOT statistics. So can you deny that?! "Is that clear enough for you?" As regards the rest, I've said do your research better before arguing with me because obviously your outburst only shows better inferiority that tries to veil the inaccuracies of your contributions. I should not even be discussing Naga here, but you continue to glorify that place with senseless arguments against facts I put forth which you cannot disprove. Sorry, but I will have to continue to tag until you learn to mature and accept facts deserving of Wikipedia, and not bloat it with your unproven conjectures. --Metro Daraga 14:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

MetroDaraga...mind your language please! It is not my fault that your imaginary SIX UNIVERSITIES of Naga failed to materialize. I think your posts have made it perfectly clear that is YOU who is a child that needs to grow up and that the adjective "cheap" perfectly describes your use of the English language. That incoherent paragraph could not have been written by someone with a mental age of more than 6. I'm afraid there's nothing we can do for people who are in the throes of hallucination. I urge you to seek urgent medical attention. Since you admire Legazpi so much I recommend Aquinas University Hospital and Ago General Hospital - both have excellent facilities, but I won't say "the best in region" just in case you have another seizure. --87.194.3.169 20:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

To the previous poster, speak for yourself, it is you who should be careful and decent about your dirty language. To push a point, there is certainly no need to resort to cheap name-calling or baseless sarcastic remarks which indeed have no place in Wikipedia. Since the beginning you miserably failed to debunk all my points. I still stand by the FACT that the other admittedly more progressive Bicol city has six (6) universities doing business in it. If at this point you still have not the slightest idea about them, then again the challenge to improve on your research skills so you can deserve to edit Wikipedia.--Metro Daraga 14:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have read the continuous discussions above between Metro Daraga and 87.194.3.169. Accordingly I am constrained by force of reason and training as a lawyer to contribute my own views finally agreeing with Metro Daraga. We Legazpi people deserve to know better about our beloved city, so we demand accurate details. This thing about “de facto regional capital” is simply inaccurate, a misleading play of words. The ascription “regional service center” which is proclaimed by Legazpi City’s official website would be accurate. To me there is nothing wrong with Metro Daraga’s pushing his/ her argument. He/ she has as much right as anybody else to do so. His/ her argument about DOT statistics and the 6 universities are unfortunately correct. The DOT statistics state that Camarines Sur/ Naga City have surpassed Albay/ Legazpi City since 2006. Following Metro Daraga's playful hints, I easily found out about the 6 universities doing business in the other city because I personally read their billboards which are all over the place, and browsed locations in their own individual websites. In short, I did my own homework and researched. Therefore labeling a person as a vandal without saying why and without exposing why he/ she is wrong is to me the height of presumption, thus grossly unfair. In which case his/ her argument/s should stand unless proven false. Particularly I find the language of 87.194.3.169 as uncalled for. By resorting to name-calling and wild speculation as to Metro Daraga’s person, arbitrarily lumping him/ her with other previous editors who have valid contributions just because these editors don’t share the same views as yours, to me disappointingly brings Wikipedia to a really low level undeserved. If you don’t agree with Metro Daraga, and other editors, then say why and proceed to edit false claims by putting forth your own evidence (you have been repeatedly challenged!), but never besmirch the reputations of persons of editors whom you hardly know because it shows your own low level which would compromise the quality of Wikipedia. Therefore I agree to tag the article as unreferenced.--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 13:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

To "The Last Honorable Boy Scout" - unfortunately, it is extremely obvious that you are most likely the same person as Metro Daraga/Bicololdtimer/IsaragLass etc....etc....It is very obvious from the way you write, i.e, the same expressions, the same faulty syntax and grammar, the same recourse to personal opinions - "because I personally read" - which are then presented as "facts!" Your posts were initially entertaining. This is now getting tedious. Please do grow up. --87.194.3.169 16:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC) I don't need to point out that the insults/name calling started with MetroDaraga aka Bicololdtimer aka The Last Honorable Boy Scout. I was called "paranoiac" (paranoid in English) very early on for daring to disagree with him/her. --87.194.3.169 16:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Except for his/ her last statement which mentions a state of paranoia, for which I should wholeheartedly agree with Metro Daraga, the previous post does not have any single ounce of truth, no substantive element nor any factual discussion about Legazpi City, which is supposed to be the main subject. What the previous poster engaged in, unfortunately, are all personal attacks upon the persons of previous editors who submitted substantive contributions that somehow tried to improve on the article by questioning inaccurate claims therein. I would encourage Wikipedia to ban the previous poster as a nuisance and threat to its desire for accurate information.--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 03:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To summarize, MetroDaraga/BicolOldtimer/Last Whatever Boy Scout/IsarogLass (check the Naga City discussion)has a BIG problem with this basic fact: Legazpi, not Naga, is the largest city in the Bicol Region:

Legazpi population= 157,000 (2000Census)

Naga population= 137,000 (2000Census)

Legazpi land area= 204.20 km²

Naga land area= 84.48 km²

Legazpi pop growth rate = 2.68%

Naga pop growth rate= 1.7%

Everything else, every other incoherent post that this person has written stems from the fact that he/she cannot accept this basic, unavoidable FACT. Are we going to be told that the Census figures are wrong and that the aforementioned poster's personal intuition is correct? This editor is determined to turn this into a City versus City argument. The discussion was originally and should still be about Legazpi City. However, Naga keeps coming up and we all know why! This person is here to stir up conflict and it should be perfectly clear who started the personal attacks and who should be banned. --87.194.3.169 14:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is questioning those figures which any elementary student knows from social studies, nor the fact that Legazpi is most populous and has a bigger area. Do not divert attention and digress from the primary discussion here, which is your persistent incorrect use of the following that is drawing a lot of discussions because of their glaring inaccuracy: 1. Regional Capital (Inaccurate! No regional government fixed by law to warrant any so-called regional capital) 2. academic center of the region with 3 universities (Inaccurate! Legazpi has actually only 2 universities, so how can it be called regional academic [sic] center when it has fewer such institutions?) 3. Top tourist destination (Inaccurate! Since 2006 per official DOT figures, Camarines Sur/ Naga City are the TOP tourist destinations in the Bicol region!) We have no questions about the Naga City article nor any interest therein, so we cannot dignify your invitation to check anything there. This is obviously the Legazpi City article where our eternal interest is reposed, so stick to it. Again let me repeat my call on Wikipedia to ban the previous poster (87.194.3.169) for being a nuisance, always illogical and out-of-order; a threat to Wikipedia’s desire for accurate information; and for repeatedly maligning well-intentioned editors.--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 04:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Here are the answers to the above posters' objections (I have answered these before but as I've said everything must be repeated for MD):

1) Yes, that's why the qualifier "de facto" was added. And it does not mean that Naga is the regional center. Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_the_Philippines Are you going to tell us that that article is wrong and your intuition is correct? 2) There are 3 tertiary institutions in Legazpi: Aquinas University, Divine Word College and Bicol University. Divine Word offers graduate studies courses - this would not be possible if it is not a university. Check out their respective websites which prove that all three universities exist, unlike the PHANTOM SIX UNIVERSITIES of Naga which you invented. 3)I have already said that the DOT's figures for Naga include the entire province of Camarines Sur and as such cannot be compared for their figures for Legazpi City alone. Repeat this 200 times until you finally understand. 4)You keep turning this into a Legazpi versus Naga discussion and your posts have been consistently aggressive and inflammatory. Furthermore, you keep resorting to using silly aliases which fool no one. You are the nuisance and the impostor. You clearly have nothing constructive to add to this article. Indeed a detailed look at all your edits will reveal that they are entirely destructive and pure vandalism. You even claimed in one of your edits that the proposed international airport in Daraga is to be transferred to Libmanan, Camarines Sur!! This is pure fiction. As such, it is you that deserves to be banned. Nice try! --87.194.3.169 12:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

1. There is a big difference between regional center and regional capital, for your information. The official Legazpi City website calls the city “regional service center”. We agree. The National Statistical Coordination Board (NSCB), the Philippines’ policy-making and coordinating body on statistical matters considers Legazpi as regional center (why don't you read what the NSCB has to say about the other city so you can come to your senses?). Of course we agree. But nowhere is it mentioned that Legazpi City is the regional capital, EXCEPT in your erroneous Wikipedia article which we will continue to edit for its gross inaccuracy so we can afford Wikipedia readers the true and correct picture about Legazpi, which is also our city.

2. Divine Word College may offer graduate studies. However, for your further education, that alone does not qualify any institution with graduate studies from being considered and called a university. Any educational institution would have to be instituted as such by proper education authorities after having passed rigorous requirements to be considered so. If Divine Word were a university, logically and proudly it would have dropped the College name altogether, faster than you can say you’re logical! So that means Legazpi has only 2 universities.

3. Precisely you cannot say Legazpi is the TOP tourist destination because DOT statistics say Camarines Sur/ Naga City are the TOP tourist destination since 2006. Your simplistic analogy that since Legazpi had statistics all by its lonesome would mean it had bigger arrivals is wrong! The other province’s and other city’s figures are indeed combined (don’t blame me!), so I am sure that cannot be divided exactly between the two, so fewer went to one and more to the other. That being the case, it’s all possible one of the two would have more than Legazpi’s number of arrivals. But let’s just leave the DOT figures as officially given, which means Legazpi is certainly not THE top tourist destination.

4. Again we repeat we are not dealing with nor discussing the Naga City article here, so do not add that place. Now you have added Libmanan. We suggest you put your discussion in good order first as the article and discussion should obviously be all about Legazpi City.

I agree with The Last Honorable Boy Scout in calling upon Wikipedia to ban the previous poster 87.194.3.169 for being such a nuisance, grossly illogical and out-of-order, and for repeatedly maligning well-intentioned editors.--Metro Daraga 14:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I refer readers/editors/administrators of Wikipedia to have a good look at the corresponding discussion on the Naga City article and they will instantly see that MetroDaraga/Last Whatever Boyscout/IsarogLass/Bicololdtimer are one and the same person and that this sad individual has a long history of destructive vandalism, trolling, impersonation and erroneous claims. The Naga City article was full of unverified and erroneous nonsense and was justifiably tagged as unreferenced. It seems, that in retaliation, this poster has decided to do his/her utmost in persistently vandalizing this article in order to maintain Naga's alleged superiority over all other cities/towns in the Bicol Region. As I have said in my previous post:

1) All this hair-splitting over the words "de facto capital" is a direct result of this poster's refusal to accept the fact that Legazpi City is the largest city (in population) in the Bicol Region. The fact that it is the largest in population and not land area is in fact carefully pointed out in the article, partly, it seems, to appease the ego of this particular poster. Very few, if any, city articles actually go to the trouble of pointing this out. Facts are facts, statistics are statistics, nothing more, nothing less - why argue with them?

2) Even if we reword the article, to satisfy this pedantic poster, so that it says Legazpi has three TERTIARY institutions - it still does not make Naga any more "central" or "important" as an educational hub, because unfortunately, it ALSO has ONLY THREE (NOT SIX!) tertiary institutions. And who says the number of universities is the only factor in deciding whether a city is the region's educational center? Legazpi also has medical and nursing colleges, computer colleges and the most number of high schools in the region. Clearly, Naga has no overall predominance in any of these criteria.

3)If the poster is able to come up with DOT figures that focus on Naga City's (as opposed to the entire province of Camarines Sur) tourism data, then we can start to make a fair comparison with Legazpi City's figures. At the moment, MetroDaraga/Boyscout/Bicololdtimer is unable to provide us with like for like DOT figures and resorts instead to repetitive and irrational outbursts.

4)You clearly have something to hide if you do not wish to discuss your ludicrous claim that the proposed international airport has been transferred to Libmanan (a rural municipality). This is just one example of your numerous acts of vandalism in this article. I could spend a whole day listing all your silly fabrications, but I prefer to spare our readers who have suffered enough. Finally, your consistent defense of MetroDaraga/Bicololdtime etc...shows that you have implicitly admitted that "you are all" in fact the same poster. We all knew this anyway, as your choice of words makes it all too painfully clear. Your aim is clearly to show that I am overwhelmed by a tide of opposition from numerous other readers/editors, when in fact, they are all one and the same person - you! Your strategy has failed miserably. I suggest you give up. Once again, it should be perfectly clear who is the vandal, the troll and the impostor and who should be banned. --87.194.3.169 17:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

To the Wikipedia administrators, we have said our piece on this particular discussion and own our final say. Discussing further with 87.194.3.169 would only be counter-productive for well-intentioned editors. On my part, I will just refer to my previous discussions in continuing to tag the article to guard it against falsehood. The previous poster 87.194.3.169 persists with his/ her illogical, ridiculous, and bloated claims about Legazpi being “regional capital”, “academic center”, having “3 universities”, “Top tourist destination” when we have pointed in clear, unambiguous terms why these descriptions cannot and should not apply to Legazpi City since these no doubt make the article entirely inaccurate and gravely misleading. We have made our edits with absolutely nothing to do with Naga City, the admittedly more progressive Bicol city, nor with Libmanan (surprise!). However, each time we come up with logical explanations why his/ her claims are not valid and therefore unacceptable, this poster 87.194.3.169 would characteristically introduce new claims that make the entire process circuitous and proceeds to divert attention from his errors by maligning well-intentioned editors through unfounded claims and paranoiac suspicions against and about their persons so that readers are hoodwinked into believing his/ her contentions are the valid ones when nothing can be farther from the truth. I thank Metro Daraga for resolving with me to uphold the truth in this regard and invite other level-headed editors to do the same so that we can assure readers of an unbiased, truthful article about the fair city that Legazpi is. We therefore ask Wikipedia administrators to ban this poster 87.194.3.169 for being a nuisance, always illogical and out-of-order; a threat to Wikipedia’s desire for accurate information; for repeatedly maligning well-intentioned editors; and for repeatedly making false, misleading claims on Legazpi City.--[[User:The Last Honorable Boy Scout|The Last Honorable Boy Scout]] 02:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is better than Hamlet! Here we have the interior monologue of our deluded poster. Apparently, he/she had a conference with his/her many alter egos. I await with excitement the latest episode of this soap opera, where our editor not only has frequent changes of career but alarmingly frequent changes of sex. To sum up, we have had: a schoolgirl from Daraga, an Irish-American who's English happens to be awful, a boy scout, a retired banker, a retired lawyer, a retired businessman/woman,(look at the Naga City discussion) ...I suggest you retire yourself permanently from Wikipedia. The admins are too smart to be fooled by your cross-dressing. They know exactly what to do and don't need to be ordered by you. --87.194.3.169 12:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree 100% with The Last Honorable Boy Scout because his views and discussions are truthful, logical, clear, and most of all, carried out in dignified fashion and elegant English. Those alone can assure Wikipedia readers of a truthful, unbiased contribution regarding Legazpi City, thank you. Additionally, this is also my final say at least on the subjects of "regional capital", "academic center", "3 universities", "the Top tourist destination". From whatever angle you discuss these supposed descriptions of Legazpi, they do not truthfully and accurately present what Legazpi really is for reasons already cited in my previous discussions here dated Sept. 12, 16, & 20, 2007. The purveyor of false claims (87.194.3.169) who has repeatedly refused our valid edits represents the height of vandalism and can definitely mislead unsuspecting readers. Wikipedia should not allow itself to be an instrument of deceit because of wrongful, misleading information from such illogical source/s and should in fact ban any such contributor who wilfully and knowingly hide the truth, which is against Wikipedia's policies.--Metro Daraga 13:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed "political center", which is really ambiguous in a government set-up that still has political detainees or a history of incarcerating them, and replaced it with "regional service center" which is in accordance with what the official website of Legazpi City says about itself. This seems to be among the contentious issues in this discussion page. Going through the discussions, I can only agree with Metro Daraga and The Last Honorable Boy Scout to whom I should give my applause. To 87.194.3.169 (pls. don't go to the extent of writing that I am somebody else because you will really be out of your mind!) I would like to say you seem to mean well, but I should ask you to help disseminate only factual information about our city. We don't want any dreamer's paradise which may make people expect something that is not there. As a Legazpeño, I only want real hard facts about my city. I think Legazpi folks would naturally also want the truth said about their place. As a proud Legazpeño, it is not easy and pleasing to hear Legazpi is not on top as it used to be (frankly it boils my blood!), but at least what we hear about it is the truth and not just any clever manipulation of words. The truth hurts, but it's the truth, and it will set us all free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.212.72.221 (talk) 11:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

To the above poster, you can use as many aliases, usernames and as many anonymous computers as you like but you will not fool Wikipedia admins or anyone else with your clumsy charade. You could at least make your farce a bit more convincing. As usual, we have to put up with a long and rambling monologue, as well as an entirely irrelevant diversion on political detainees. In future, please keep your posts concise and to the point. What a waste of bandwidth! --87.194.3.169 15:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Kudos to poster 125.212.72.221 for his/ her maturity and level-headedness. At least with editors like you, we are assured Wikipedia remains objective and truthful. Let's stay steadfast and be on our guard always. Thank you.--Metro Daraga 12:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed MetroDaraga's persistent vandalism. This person uses various other aliases such as IsarogLass, Bicololdtimer, The Last Honorable Boyscout. He/She also vandalizes the Naga City article--87.194.3.169 14:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed income class of Legazpi City from 1st class to 2nd class to reflect recent changes as of June 30, 2007 in the Philippine Standard Geographic Code/ National Statistical Coordination Board, the Philippines' policy-making and coordinating body on statistical matters. Statistics indicate Legazpi City is partially urban with 46 barangays classified as urban and 24 barangays classified as rural. Pls. follow this link to verify --- http://www.nscb.gov.ph/activestats/psgc/province.asp?provCode=&provName=ALBAY&regCode=05&regName=REGION%20V%20(Bicol%20Region)--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 04:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

That link is dead/invalid and obviously invented by the above poster for purely malicious reasons. Philippine cities'income classes are evaluated using Census figures and income data - the next Census is not due till 2010. A quick trawl through Google news will quickly reveal this fraud. Like I said before, this is a persistent and childish vandal. Please do not waste your time reading or believing what this poster writes. Nice try! --87.194.3.169 11:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The Last Honorable Boy Scout tried to rectify something that is already incorrect so that the article about Legazpi City becomes more accurate, and we should help him. We should not provide any barrier like what the previous poster 87.194.3.169 is doing. If the link he provided is dead, then follow his lead and search for the truth until it is found. Well, I found it, no sweat. Follow this link that says The Last Honorable Boy Scout is telling the truth Legazpi City has recently been classified 2nd class and partially urban as of June 30, 2007 ---

             http://www.nscb.gov.ph/activestats/psgc/default.asp

Nobody can deny official figures especially from an official authoritative government body like NSCB which is precisely authorized to give these official statistics. The problem with the previous poster 87.194.3.169 is that his/ her mind is closed to the truth and that is where the link he/ she mentioned is dead/invalid and obviously invented.--Metro Daraga 14:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have edited Legazpi's income classification to reflect the latest NSCB data. However, I noticed in the same link that Naga has also been rated as second class and partially urban. I will update Naga City's income status accordingly. Thanks for pointing this out! --Agniilepurohutam 20:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding accusations of vandalism, to be fair, the editors who originally wrote the income class ratings for both cities based their data on the respective cities' official websites, both of which are therefore out of date, as per the NSCB link. I will be watching both the Legazpi and Naga articles carefully for any signs of vandalism. --Agniilepurohutam 20:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Finally a whip of fresh air, hopefully objective. Re Naga, indeed 2nd class, but I read it differently from NSCB as wholly urban, not partially. Pls. check again and state your Naga comments in that city's discussion page. Let's keep the Legazpi article accurate. Thanks.--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 10:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Honorable Boy Scout, I have now made the amemdment you requested, please check the Naga page. --Agniilepurohutam 20:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No need, but thanks anyway. Just make the right, factual edit, that's always my request. I'm sure there are other truthful editors who can contribute meaningfully at the Naga City article. I'll just focus on the Legazpi article where my interest lies.--The Last Honorable Boy Scout 06:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/bcl --Filipinayzd 18:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Legazpi vs Naga please end the discussion[edit]

There is too much comparison being done between Legazpi and Naga. The two cities complement (not "compliment") each other as they belong to the same region. Legazpi is the regional center of Bicol as most of the government centers are located in the city. All talks about Naga City are irrelevant and should be avoided as this page describes everything any person needs to know about Legazpi City, and not about Naga City. The previous assertions about Naga City being the real economic hub of the Bicol Region are not supported by any reliable evidence. The number of banks and other establishments do not show clearly how it is the real economic hub of Bicol. What appears to be the truth still needs to be seen in the future, not in the form of number of banks and other establishments but in the form of real economic facts such as GDRP and other economic indicators.103.14.62.233 (talk) 03:11, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Dominic MacArthur, please stop this nonsense.103.14.62.233 (talk) 03:12, 28 April 2014 (UTC)


2009.Dec.16 - MhZ showed on "no comment" a video shot today in Legazpi City, showing volcanic eruption and evacuation. Was that the Mayon Volcano? Is this the first mass evacuation since the big 1814 eruption? I suggest the main article for this city should have a section on the volcano, listing major eruptions, or link to new article just about the volcano. In either case, perhaps there should be a NEWS article about this particular eruption?

<Cityname> <City>[edit]

There is a discussion regarding the removal of the word "city" from the article titles of Philippine cities. This may imminently affect the article name for Legazpi, Albay. For city names which are not unique, disambiguation alternatives are also being presented. Formal request for page move may follow after a reasonable time of discussion. If you wish to participate, please post your comments here. --JinJian (talk) 05:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

{{movenotice|Legazpi, Albay|Talk:Alaminos City#Requested move}}

The Em's to EM's: A vandalism?[edit]

My recent edit to Legazpi, Albay, particularly changing the small case 'm' to a capital 'M' was tagged as vandalism. I became a resident of this Barangay in 1965, which was formerly a part of the old 1960s Regan Barracks.When my parents transferred abode here, there were only a few houses within the vicinity. EM's Barrio, or formally the Enlisted Men's Barrio of Reagan Barracks, became the site where the enlisted men of the military camp put their houses up initially. During Pres. Marcos reign, barangays were formed all over the country and Enlisted Men's Barrio became Barangay 1 of Legazpi City. People flocked to Barangay 1 which was most near Bicol University, the premier state university in Legazpi then and now. Apparently, the barangay residents got tired of calling the place as Enlisted Men's Barrio because there were more non-military residents than the number of enlisted men who resided there. So, Barangay 1 was colloquially called EM's Barrio. Although Reagan Barracks was renamed as Camp Bagong Ibalon in 1971, see PRO5 History, Enlisted Men's Barrio was still Enlisted Men's Barrio to the old timers, or EM's Barrio, for short. In 1991, the camp was renamed 'Camp General Simeon A. Ola', yet Barangay 1 retained its name as Enlisted Men's Barrio. Through the years, with the influx of people and transient students in the area formerly called Enlisted Men's Barrio, it was then popularly called as EM's Barrio or more formally, just Barangay 1. I only edited this particular portion of Legazpi, Albay because such usage of Em's Barrio also affects the Places in Facebook. If the same practice of calling my home place, Enlisted Men's Barrio, will continue to be Em's Barrio in Facebook, there will come a time that people will wonder who was Em. Do pray tell, dear editors, how could this simple edit "m" to "M" be called vandalism? ABdA (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I am the one who rolled back your edit. My apologies. The problem is there was no reference for me to verify if is real or not. My reference is the Philippine Standard Geographic Code which spells it as 'Em'. Any reference why it is 'Enlisted Men' would have helped. From somebody who is not that familiar with Legazpi, it might appear as phony. I am just guarding the page from further vandalism. If you check the history page, the article was heavily vandalized since April. So please, add a useful reference per WP:Verifiability, not truth and WP:Verifiability. Thanks. Briarfallen (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That's okay. At least you could have given me some sort of a note why the simple change in case of a single letter was flagged as vandalism. I added a remark to it saying after selecting m for minor edit with '(Changed case of EM's Barrio from Em's; EM=Enlisted Men). Did all the vandalism since April to the time of my minor edit bore the same remark? The history shows that only my edit bore that remark. I am fully aware that Wiki cautions editors about WP:PSTS, you could have asked for WP:Verifiability. Right now, I am too far from my hometown and my only way to make this change from Em to EM stick is through Internet. So please bear with me if my reference would be a long way coming. I'm searching for an old case file between Reagan Barracks and EM's Barrio way back in 1970s-80s, but alas could not yet find it on the web. Will be trying Archive.org sometime today. Truth be told, I do not have the luxury of time to focus all my energy to Wikipedia right now because of a project I am managing is scheduled to be turned over by 26 May. So, may I ask a little favor, maybe you could help me get that document somewhere in the vastness of the Internet; and please, I pray, please revert back the capital case, M, for the time being and just flag it as citation needed. Facebook uses Wikipedia to most Places, and EM's Barrio is one of them. Thank you! ABdA (talk) 07:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Searching for this Reagan Barracks vs. EM's Barrio case on the web, I find an interesting question: "And btw, who is EM and why is it called EM's Barrio?" See this: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=175804&page=516 And this exchange of questions and answers was in 2009. Am still searching for a WP:Verifiability. ABdA (talk) 07:36, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

At least these two Wiki sister websites: Wikipilipinas.org: Lungsod_Legaspi and Tagalog Wikipedia: Lungsod_ng_Legazpi got EM's Barrio correctly. And this sentence uses the correct form of EM's Barrio: and I quote: "A 40-meter lomh L-shaped and seven-feet deep tunnel used by the Japanese forces as an arsenal during the 2nd World War. It is located at Barangay EM’s Barrio South in Albay District." Legazpi City Official Website Incidentally, even people residing presently in EM's Barrio enunciate the two letters E and M separately, and not as a word em, just like when the letter M is sounded. Other Legazpiño editors could verify this as I have no idea how this phonetic claim be within the bounds of WP:Verifiability.ABdA (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, there is no problem with EM. I have seen it changed from Em to EM on the internet, what made me doubt was the "Enlisted Men" (for a barrio name??) and that made me rolled it back. Again, I apologize for judging it as vandalism, but that's what I felt that night reading it for the first time. Wikipedia is now a very strong tool and used by a lot of websites as reference (without checking the references). Unfortunately, Wikipedia could also be a source of misinformation for the same reason. One good example is on Mount Pinatubo, some user changed the name of a mountain range of Pinatubo from Cabusilan Mountains to Tri-Cabusilan Mountains in 2009. I just caught it early this year but if you do an internet search on Tri-Cabusilan, it still shows up, all sourced from Wikipedia. So, if you are unsure about some facts, my suggestion is not put it (WP:verifiability, not truth); the credibility of Wikipedia is at stake. By the way, WikiPilipinas is not part of Wikipedia. Thanks.Briarfallen (talk) 14:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, and thank you for the change in case. Thanks for the heads-up on WP:verifiability, not truth. Incidentally, I wonder why the article is *still* flagged with This article needs additional citations for verification. Does this mean that not everything in the page is WP:verifiability thus additional citations are needed? Thanks again. ABdA (talk) 02:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit war[edit]

User:Ethan Corrset, may I ask why the statement that Legazpi is the largest in Bicol was deleted? Please explain. In common parlance, largest city of any place in the world refers to the most populous city of that area. Also, there was no mention of "capitol" in my edits. I mentioned "capital." Please explain how a region cannot have a capital when a capital means the seat of government and the administrative center of a certain place. Also, the strategic location part was deleted for no reason! It was not false, just not backed up by sources, which can be provided, although not so easy because government facts in the Philippines are so hard to retrieve! Another deletion was about the Integrated Reorganization Plan of 1972. Why was it deleted? It shows the history behind how Legazpi was chosen as the administrative center of Bicol Region. Do you seriously think we can retrieve a 1972 plan? You must be kidding! Unique Albay (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

-If I am not mistaken, the largeness of the city can be determined by its density, and economic powerhouse. Also, with portions of the article related to its designation as capital of the Bicol Region, the article appears to be already promotional info. People need to know about it, but some people do not need to know about, most people don't need to know about it. Therefore, I must then say, that your edits, and any of your future edits can be considered vandalism, degrading the credibility of Wikipedia, all because of your proud declarations. Even with sources, your tone is not encyclopedic, nor reliable, nor knowledgeable. If you are going to add things on Wikipedia, make sure your writing must be simple, majority of people do not need to know about where the regional offices are, you can simply state, Legazpi, as the administrative center of the Bicol Region, and not one whole section of it. Good Luck on your further edits, Unique Albay, along with 103.14.62.233, who is another persistent editor who keeps on vandalizing important pages in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.14.63.241 (talk) 01:33, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I removed the word "capital". That word implies an official and designated status, but regions don't have governments (there are no Regional governors or legislators, etc.). An administrative center is different that a capital! I also removed the strategic location section because it is completely unreferenced and purely promotional: it copies info already stated elsewhere in the article to give undue weight to claims of being the regional center, which is also already mentioned. It relies on fallacies (wrong inferred conclusions). For example, it can be proved that its airport is the busiest, that it has an active seaport and transportation hub, but it cannot be proved from that, that these were the reasons for being designated the regional center. -- P 1 9 9   16:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello all. Please see my post on the Naga talk page regarding this concern (and that of other edits made in the past few days). Thanks! --- Tito Pao (talk) 17:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

      • Good morning, all! Before I begin this long post, I would like to mention that all my editions were done in good faith. Should my additions appear to be promotional in nature, I beg your pardon but none of them are. The only things is, I don't have the sources with me just yet. I do hope, though, that my additions would not be deleted all too hastily. There are many wiki pages from all over that have portions without sources, references or citations, but withstood the tests of time. Furthermore, wikipedia has never been paper-worthy or research-worthy reliable but it still has practical use for being a jump-off point or starting-point from which a researcher can begin his study. Another purpose of Wiki is to provide information to people other than those who prepare papers/studies. I believe that the foregoing purposes of Wiki (although I am not ruling out the possibility of it becoming a research-worthy reliable source) should allow for additions not yet supported by references/sources for the time being. On top of all these, portions without references can be conspicuously seen. One look and you already know that such portion cannot be cited on paper.
  • Encyclopedias normally consider the most populous city of a certain area as the largest city. That is the reason why the largest city in the world is Mexico City because it is the most populous. Please correct me if I am wrong though because the last time I checked was 5 years ago. I presume that that has been standardized a long time ago.
  • With regard to strategic location, it is not promotional in nature but informative in nature. Legazpi is the most accessible and closest city to all parts of the region and I can attest to this fact as I live near that city: Daraga, Albay. I basically know where most of the Bicol towns and cities are located because I grew up here. It is informative in nature because it explains why Legazpi was designated as the administrative center. I can back up these statements but for the time being, please give me some time to look for reliable sources.
  • Also, please give me some tests to determine what is informative and what is merely promotional.
  • With regard to the locations of these government offices, I think it is clear enough that indicating where these offices lie is not promotional but rather informative in nature. Many people who would be transacting in the Bicol Region need to know where these offices are located. Likewise, a description as to where the other offices are located (those outside Legazpi City) is very important in nature as people, who would presume that these offices are located in Legazpi, must have a knowledge of. Otherwise, they would have a hard time finding these offices. Thus, a description that Legazpi is the administrative center "hardly suffices." I think that is clear enough.
  • The terms "capital" and "administrative center" hardly ever had a pragmatic distinction. A dictionary states that "capital" refers to "administrative center." [1] The distinction between the two has no practical purpose whatsoever. Unless you are a law student or a lawyer, you do not need to know the difference.Unique Albay (talk) 04:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
  • An example of such encyclopedia is the Grolier International Encyclopedia, which determines the largeness of a city in terms of population. In Wiki [2], the procedure for "determining the world's largest cities depends on which definitions of 'city' and 'size' are used, and how those definitions are applied. The 'size' of a city can refer to its land area, but it is more typically the population. How one defines the land area of a city, however, is key to determining its population."Unique Albay (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Examples of promotional-like texts that I removed last night were these:
A. Bichara Silverscreens opened in 1998 and is a favorite 
among moviegoers because of its state-of-the-art cinemas.
In the last quarter of 2013, Robinsons Supermarket opened its doors 
in Legazpi. Located in Old Albay, it is found beside the famous 
La Mia Tazza Coffee, it is a welcome addition to the growing number 
of retail stores in the city.
Unless you could provide sources which will support these statements (e.g. a news article about a survey done on moviegoers with regard to their favorite movie houses), it is best to avoid adding statements that might be construed as introducing bias. (The same thing applies if the statement you were trying to introduce is negative, e.g., "The filthy embezzler and plunderer Janet Lim-Napoles is widely regarded by an overwhelming majority of patriotic Filipinos as a crook who milched industrious Filipino taxpayers of their hard-earned money"...I'm sure most Pinoys, given our times, would agree to or would like to believe that statement (I do ;) but the sentence is heavily loaded with nuanced language that it would probably take a miracle for it to be left unnoticed, much less untouched, by other non-Filipino editors.) Keep in mind that even if you (per your admission) are a resident of Legazpi, Albay, what you really want to write here is an encyclopedia article, a (secondary) reference material that will be used by other people who do not have an idea about the city and want to learn more about it. Who knows, the person reading this (or other articles) may be using Wikipedia for a homework instead of looking for their next tourist destination.
(That said...have you tried visiting Wikivoyage? I think given your motivations, you can make a lot of helpful contributions there, as it's primarily an open-source tourist guide wiki.) --- Tito Pao (talk) 06:58, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
      • This is the only chance I have got since I have been using my mobile phone for the past few days. Today I am using a desktop. Regarding those statements you deleted, User: Titopao, I have only reverted Nightcrawler's additions. I have left it for the rest of the editors to check which parts are promotional and which parts are acceptable. Please take note of the edit summary. I have indicated therein my reason for the reversion.Unique Albay (talk) 10:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

RE: refimprove tag[edit]

Kindly advise if the refimprove tag is still necessary. Thanks! --Dexbaldon (talk) 02:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Ideally, there should be at least one citation for every paragraph in the history section. Good job with sourcing references for the rest. Thanks.--RioHondo (talk) 02:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

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