Talk:Leigh-on-Sea

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Name[edit]

It's pronouned "Lee", as in say, the english words "glee", "flea", "pea" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.124.8 (talk) 04:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

How is this name pronounced ?

Are the hyphens part of the name? If so, they should be in the article's title. RickK 23:59, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I've included IPA pronunciation. Longwayround (talk) 15:20, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

My changes are based on my recollections of living in Leigh-on-Sea 1937-1940. I hope to get more information about St. Clement's Church -- I think a church has been on the present site since Saxon times. I have emailed the online Domesday book project for full quote -- the elementary school class I was in memorized the passage. There is a Turner painting of bawleys. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I added Edward Greenfield to the Notable Persons because we were classmates in Leigh and our homes were about a quarter mile apart. I alphabetized the list for consistency with other pages.

I have since reversed this because of criteria of verifiability. Should Bailey, Emmanuel, Evans, Littlewood, Mirren, Tornton, Wright, Puritans be included. In the article about each of them, either a "Find" using "Leigh-on-Sea" shows the place name is missing, or finds mention of Chalkwell or Westcliff or Southend which have their own articles. Will remove in a few days absent justification for inclusion. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC) Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:12, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

changes 12/16/2010[edit]

My interest in this page is to add to information appropriate to an entry in an encyclopedia.

In the course of adding a few details on relevant works of art and church architecture I removed some phraseology that seemed a bit subjective or promotional, such as "greatest" qualifying a particular love story, and adjectives applied to particular commercial enterprises.

The restyling of the notable people is based on Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements#Notable people which states "Do not use a list format in this section. Please write this as prose"

Might the provision of references to show verifiability of some of the statements (e.g. about Mayflower) increase confidence in accuracy of article.?

Also, I am bit uneasy about the propriety of what looks like the promotion of particular commercial enterprises, and the completely ephemeral relevance and parochialism of town council committee meeting schedules. However, I am new to the WP ethos, and thought the best I could do was to collect together the material with a presence that puzzles me, for emphasis, and use {{helpme}} to draw attention of an experienced WP editor who I hope will take any action that may be appropropriate. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I just read through your message about 3 times and I have no idea what you're trying to say or ask. If you could restate yourself in Plain English, then I think someone can help you out. I removed the {{helpme}} template since that is only for user talk pages. If you need some help, you can try contacting some users at the WikiProjects associate with the article (see the box at the top of the page). –Dream out loud (talk) 18:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I've worked through the section and have deleted most of it. See my edit summaries for details. -- John of Reading (talk) 17:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
"Also, I am bit uneasy about the propriety of what looks like the promotion of particular commercial enterprises, " I agree; links and similar imagery where included in the article that could be regarded as commercial and somewhat opportunistic can be removed. 188.31.10.8 (talk) 02:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.richardbaxter.com/leighonsea.php. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. John of Reading (talk) 17:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

References to scholarly works to support statements in the article[edit]

1. "ward off threats from French, Dutch and pirates" How does the reference given for this statement meet criteria of verifiability. It is a website that is unsigned, and does not provide references for the statements it displays.

1.1 French: were these the invaders of the early 13th century (end of reign of King John and start of reign of Henry III). If so, where is this stated in monographs, journal articles? If possible invasion during the Napoleonic wars, how would the British men-of-war docked, considering the tides?

1.2 Dutch: the fiascos with the Dutch destruction of the British fleet in Kent is extremely well documented contemporaneously and researched. Where is the role of Leigh mentioned?

1.3 Pirates: does this refer to the Vikings? If so, references, please. When, since then, has the British coast been threatened by pirates. The boats that the Navy sent to far off waters to deal with piracy were quite large by the standards of the times. Where is an account that they used Leigh?

2. "The Mayflower may have ..." what monograph or peer reviewed journal article states this? Thanks Michael P. Barnett (talk) 17:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed yes; I have tagged the article as needing more references. You have (at least) four options:
  1. Obviously the best option would be for you to research the topic and try to find the missing references. At the moment you seem to be the Wikipedia contributor who has the most interest in this article.
  2. Be bold and removed the unsourced information. Once unsourced statements have been challenged, they can only be put back into the article with an explicit reference - see WP:UNSOURCED. That leaves the article smaller but more reliable.
  3. Dig around in the page history to see which editor added the unsourced information, and leave a message on that user's talk page asking where it all came from.
  4. Move on to something else, leaving the {{refimprove}} tag in place as a warning to readers that the information may not be reliable.
I hope this helps! -- John of Reading (talk) 21:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
This is very helpful, particularly the {{refimprove}} tag. I will act on the Leigh-on-Sea article now, then put refimprove tags on some other articles I have found that need them. Then I will put message on your talk page as follow up. I am going at a variety of articles, that actually are on a tree of personal cross connections, to help me verbalize some ideas on mechanized systematic construction of insertions to be made MANUALLY. (Heaven forbid a daemon that updates 5,000 articles erroneously or worse maliciously.) This is a professional interest. I spent a substantial part of the years before I retired on automation of the collection and dissemination of information. This does not show up on my web site which is restricted to chemical and biomedical topics. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Deletions of statements about history lacking references[edit]

The statement about Mayflower was deleted. It sailed from Southampton. Conceivably some of the pilgrims who came from close to Leigh boarded there. A lot of information has been collected about the Pilgrim Fathers. Searching that might add weight to restoring the deletion.

The statement about warding off threats was deleted. Earlier comment about pirates and French does not need repeating. Maybe searching naval history literature dealing with Napoleonic wars might warrant restoring mention. As regards Dutch [1] states "many felt that the Dutch would strike elsewhere along the coast and the bulk of the active English ships were based elsewhere. As the Dutch approached, only three ships guarded the entrance to the Medway and 30 sloops stood by to tow the unmanned English ships further upstream if necessary." Does not seem to imply ships may have been at Leigh. But burden is on protagonist of deleted statement to provide verification if it is to be restored. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggested revision of lede[edit]

Leigh-on-Sea, (alternatively, Leigh), is a town in Essex. It comprises the western part of the Southend-on-Sea conurbation on the north bank of the River Thames, about 45 miles from the Tower of London. Leigh consists of the "Old Town" just above the level of the river, and further urbanization at an elevation of just over 100 feet. At various times it has combined the roles of a fishing village, a boat building port, a commuter town and a recreational center close enough to London for day trips. Documented history dates back to the Domesday Book. The records of the Church of St. Clement date back to the 13th century, and the fabric to the 15th. Fishermen from Leigh served valiantly in the Dunkirk evacuation. Leigh has been home to several artists and supports arts festivals. Technically, it is a civil parish in the unitary authority of Southend-on-Sea, with its own Town Council. The population reported in the 2001 census was 20,737.

If no-one objects within a couple of days, I will replace present lede with this, (or however it gets edited) and proceed to extend body of article with further material I have found.

128.112.66.15 (talk) 02:15, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions for rest of article[edit]

The following information is posted in hope other people are interested in the Article and will use whatever pieces they think appropriate. Most of the material I mention is Copyright, but fair use would be adequate.


1. I drafted a tentative description of topography of Leigh (it contains the kind of information I would have liked to have, when describing the layout of land and water to people remote from U.K. who have asked about the environment where I grew up:

Topography
Leigh-on-Sea (Leigh) is on the north bank of the River Thames, about 42 miles east and 1.5 miles north of the Tower of London, as the crow flies, and about 55 miles by boat. Leigh Old Town (Old Leigh) averages about 10 feet above the water level that the river reaches at high Spring tide (except in times of flood). The main part of Leigh is at an elevation of just over 100 feet, at the top of a steep incline. Leigh is adjoined on the West by Hadleigh, on the North by Eastwood and, on the east, by parts of Chalkwell and Westcliff-on-Sea in the overall conurbation of Southend-on-Sea, of which Leigh is a part. The Church of St. Clement is a prominent landmark in Leigh. It is about 2.5 miles west of Victoria Circus, a convenient reference point in Southend-on-Sea. The small Two Tree Island and Leigh Marsh lie between the beaches of Leigh and Canvey. The beach along Leigh Old Town is about 25 yards deep at low tide -- much less than the beaches further east.
The west end of Leigh-on-Sea is almost due north of the east end of Canvey Island. At low tide, sand and mud flats extend for about two miles south of the beach. These comprise Leigh, Chapman and the west end of Southend Sands. The Chalkwell Ouze (shallow) and the Ray Gut (dangerous) are exposed on the north and south sides of Two Tree Island. Across the Thames Estuary, the Kent coast is about 3.5 miles south of Leigh, at a point that is about 3/4 mile west of All Hallows. The eastmost and westmost points of Leigh are about 2 miles apart. So are the northernmost and southernmost.
see, e.g. http://www.ponies.me.uk/maps/osmap.html?z=14&x=0.629322&y=51.536663

I am not sure of the distances, and I emailed the general contact at Town Council for WP:verifiable values. I cannot become involved in wiki-wrangling over acceptability of Google Earth positionally focused url as verifiable source -- I know the shape of the Earth changes -- in fact I set up equations to accommodate this in artificial satellite calculations in 1957, and suggested its use in boundary litigation a few years ago -- but ...

I find distances "from London" useless without specification of reference point. From Oxford Circus, or Tower of London, or closest point technically within London in most recent revision of boundaries; as the crow flies, or by train, car or boat? Also, estimate of travel time helpful in giving general picture.

2. History: I think the following sources are helpful:

2.1 Pevsner's Buildings of England: Essex, the Introduction states that in the early 18th century, oyster farming was developed along the coast from Thorpe Bay to Leigh, and thrived for many decades; other chapters that discuss topics on County wide basis may contain material relevant to Leigh.
2.2 The book on history of Southend-on-Sea area, sent to me by curator at Southend-on-Sea Museum, written by present or former Mayor
2.3 Legra to Leigh Timeline http://www.leigh-on-sea.net/leigh_timeline.html
2.4 The reference material listed at the end of 3.3: Old Leigh ... John F. Bundock, From slates to computers ... Barbara Willshae, Leigh ... Church, John Bundock, ?The Evening Echo?
2.5 The further sub-pages linked from http://www.leigh-on-sea.net on St. Clements, Leigh Library, The Dunkirk Spirit, The Pilgrim Fathers.
2.6 A book of photographic history that a Curator at Southend Museum sent, but has not arrived, that includes pictures showing balloon barrage that extended to Leigh at start of WWII.
2.7 I emailed St.Clement's Rector for text of Dunkirk Memorial, but someone local could find it if I strike out.

3. Wild life / ecology

3.1 Minimally put in link to existing WP article about Two Tree Island [[2]]
3.2 The url .net given above links to copyrighted leigh_birds.html
3.3 worth mentioning species of algae, crabs on beach?
3.4 if open countryside path from just west of railway station to Hadleigh Castle still open, brief comment on flora and fauna (probably a general descriptor)

4. Miscellaneous

4.1 disruption of rail traffic by Canvey floods -- commuters had to get to Southend then to Liverpool Street by LNER
4.2 If can be established verifiably, and he does not mind, Edward Greenfield (music critic) lived in Leigh in immediate prewar years.
4.3 the blatant advertizing for specific shell fish eateries was removed, but interesting to work in mention of change in socio-economic attitudes to cockles as food
4.4 anything verifiable about work location of residents (local or commuter), local industries
4.5 photographs of Ian James are beautiful, linked from ..nte to leigh_james.html and Copyright

Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC) Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Don't know why my name appears so many times, but (or and):

4.6 good street map is http://www.google.com/maps?q=BROADWAY%20WEST,SS9+2DD&hl=en=&ie=UT8z=16 and use magnification ruler to enlarge until "Leigh Hill" appears on section going up the hill, as well as on section parallel to Thames [3]
4.7 I have recollection of houseboats maybe along shore going towards Canvey, but maybe mixing this up

Michael P. Barnett (talk) 16:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Literature[edit]

"The Broadway and its surrounds area are the setting of the love story The Romance Of Laura Jayne, who fictionally lived in West Street." I can find no indication that this story exists. Would anyone care to correct me, or can I delete it?Jimjamjak (talk) 13:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

..

History and Architecture[edit]

I have removed a sentence that implies that Leigh was a fishing village/community at the time of the Domesday Book. The entry in Domesday is ambiguous and makes reference to '5 smallholders above the water who do not hold land.' No reference is made to a fishery at Leigh, although there are references to other fisheries within the region. Bernard Arscott (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

CC photos needed: More to Leigh than cockle sheds and estuary views[edit]

Nice photos published in the article but really not representative of the urban/suburban town as a whole. Some photos of Broadway, London Road, Belfairs suburbs would make the article more informing for users. 188.31.10.8 (talk) 01:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)