Talk:Leo Komarov

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wp:hockey consensus of how we present birthplace countries[edit]

What consensus are you talking about? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Komarov was born in 1987, which means Estonian SSR, Soviet Union. It's irrelevant as to why Estonia was a part of the USSR. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

It isn't just the hockey consensus....its all over the wiki. Birthplaces are listed as of what the place was called at the time of their birth. It was internationally recognized as part of the Soviet Union at that time. -DJSasso (talk) 19:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The argument is that most Western government didn't recognize Soviet rule de jure, whereas the USSR and their allies did; everyone, however, recognized it as a matter of fact, though. --Львівське (говорити) 23:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
The consensus made at the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Baltic states-related articles was to state the birth country as presented in the majority of mainstream sources. You are welcome to take it to the talk page if you want to overturn the specific consensus. Otherwise, 'Narva, Estonia' it is. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
When did a straw poll on a talk page between 4 people become overriding 'consensus'? --Львівське (говорити) 15:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
We are presenting the birth country, which in this case was the USSR. GoodDay (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, we are presenting the birth country, and no, in this case it was Estonia. You can check any wikilink in the Occupation of the Baltic States to that the consensus is that the USSR was merely an lengthy occupying power in the Baltics. Otherwise, if "Birthplaces are listed as of what the place was called at the time of their birth," should we change the birth country of Jiří Holík to Germany?
Estonia was a part of the Soviet Union, when Komarov was born. GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
...and Czechoslovakia was part of Germany from 1938 to 1945 but we don't go changing the Czech and Slovak people

I'd like to add that the sources being used are limited to and EliteProspects (and Quant), who have site-wide policy of saying the modern-day country and not USSR (ex. Moscow, Russia, never Moscow, USSR) and don't make a Baltic-specific decision on its presentation. On the other hand, sites like Yahoo Sports, CBC, CBS, Fox, and Eurohockey maintain the actual country at the time of birth. Also, the Globe article that was being used as a source doesn't really make a distinction by saying he was "born in Estonia", as he was, just as Alex Ovechkin was born in Russia; the Estonian SSR was still 'Estonia' just as the Ukrainian SSR was 'Ukraine' and so on.--Львівське (говорити) 15:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Nice try at WP:CHERRYPICKING and WP:OR. 'Narva, Estonia' in the sources is Narva, Estonia in Wikipedia unless specified otherwise by the very source. Everything else is OR. The Google search for "Leo Komarov" "Narva, Estonian" yields 63 results, among which I cannot spot any WP:RS. "Leo Komarov" "Narva, USSR" gives 151 results, with the five apparently RS indicated by Lvivske. The search for "Leo Komarov" "Narva, Estonia" yields 2,290 results, including tens of RS. Now would you be kind enough either to counter these with tens of RS claiming Komarov was born in the USSR or the ESSR or to restore the deleted RS with the cited content. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I have no clue what point you just tried to make (are you accusing me of bad faith cherry picking? I just checked the major sports stats sites). Apparently everything else I said went right over your head.--Львівське (говорити) 09:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Attempts to retroactively change history, is unacceptable. At the time of Komarov's birth, Estonia was a part of the Soviet Union & thus he was Soviet born. GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Re: Estonia was a part of the Soviet Union, when Komarov was born. --... and Czechoslovakia was part of Germany during 1938-1945 but I cannot see you going changing the Czech players' birth countries to 'Germany'. I suggest you actually read an article or two about the history of foreign occupations in Eastern Europe before accusing an editor in rewriting the history.
It was, de facto, but I doubt we have any bios that fit that criteria to wrangle over. It's also a horrible example, since it was wartime occupied territory and Czechs didn't have German citizenship, unlike Estonians, who were legal Soviet citizens...for 40 years! This is more akin to refusing to recognize East German players on their bios for those born before '73, or the entirety for those born in Berlin. --Львівське (говорити) 17:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Once again poor knowledge on your behalf. Czechoslovakia was occupied before the outbreak of the war and its inhabitants did not remain Czechoslovakian citizens but were officially members (Staatsangehörige) of the Greater Germanic Reich. The length of the Soviet occupation, as the scholarly research asserts, makes it indeed unique but does not change the nature of the regime nor legitimise Estonians as Soviet citizens. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Point still remains, they were no longer citizens of Czechslovakia, but rather the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia or Slovakia, respectively; and their birthplaces would say the aforementioned, not "Czechoslovakia" - which ceased to exist irregardless of western international recognition.--Львівське (говорити) 19:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Re: are you accusing me of bad faith cherry picking? I just checked the major sports stats sites' - Oh did you? I wonder how on earth you missed HockeyDB, American Hockey League, Toronto Maple Leafs and so on? How are your five sources superior to these and tens of more RS? is still, now you're double dipping.--Львівське (говорити) 16:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
My point remains the same - you are ignoring how the majority of mainstream sources present Komarov's birth place.
Again, (and whatever the main stat database is that all of this is pulled from) presents all birth countries as their contemporary versions - WP:Hockey presents birthplace as the actual country at the time they were born - as is wikipedia wide policy.--Львівське (говорити) 19:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Re: Apparently everything else I said went right over your head. - Well, you did not say much except for "Estonia = Estonian SSR", which I already refuted as OR. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:57, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Care to explain how cited, well know fact is original research to you? You're also still ignoring the fact that all of those sources use 'estonia' as a matter of style guide, not fact. We'd have to revise every Russian player's birthplace, too, if that were the case.--Львівське (говорити) 16:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The majority of sources do not consider Russia as occupied by the Soviet Union, while they do consider Estonia as such. A cited, well-known fact. If 'Narva, Estonia' is just a matter of style to you then why oppose it and try modify it to fit your beliefs? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Your first point would fall under WP:SYN. The sources you are using don't "recognize" anything, they simply state the modern-day country for place of birth, for all players. --Львівське (говорити) 17:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Tangled. Komarov's birth records would exist in the records of the Estonian SSR, which existed and was ratified after WW2 by the powers. However, it's inconsistent to list Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine persons as 'country SSR'. We don't do that for many other countries, for example Poland, where it was a 'People's Republic of' - that is we don't say Warsaw, PR Poland. If the Republic of Estonia legally existed, then the person in question can be listed as Estonia, why not? And Estonia SSR, which is just one state of the nation's existence. It's just a unique situation. Why not list both? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

In 1987, Estonia wasn't a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
That's right. It was occupied. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Matter of perspective, all member republics of the USSR were 'officially' sovereign states just as the EU.--Львівське (говорити) 20:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The Soviet Union was a sovereign state, made up of 15 parts. It was a fact, that can't be retroactively changed. GoodDay (talk) 20:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
It was a sovereign state made up of sovereign republics. It's just a messy bit of semantics, like the UK with its countries within a country.--Львівське (говорити) 21:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The United Kingdom's setup, please don't remind me ;) GoodDay (talk) 21:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The reason we don't do this for Poland and other commie satellites is just a matter of common usage and if a need to differentiate between Soviet and post-Soviet. East Germany is aka the GDR, for example; but Mikhail Grabovski is listed by as just "Germany".--Львівське (говорити) 20:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Note, we've got Grabovski correctly listed as being born in East Germany. GoodDay (talk) 21:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

What is the need to differentiate between Estonia and Estonia SSR? Or for that matter Russia and Russia SFSR? It's just a stage for the same place. The people of these countries self-identify the same before and after Soviet Union start and end. I see the point of having the legality covered, but why ban the self-identification? It's not like there is some 'other' Estonia or Russia. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree to an extent, should probably be handled with pipe links, but I think it's just a matter of common use. We're veering off topic though, the original argument was that it should be "Narva, Estonia" with no mention of 'Soviet Union', despite him being a Soviet/Russian citizen.--Львівське (говорити) 22:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
This is the very core of the question - Estonians were officially Soviet citizens but this was illegal and hence void, which became a full reality just four years after Komarov's birth. No need for pipelinks, there was no alternative Estonia. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 03:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Let's not retroactively change history. Estonia wasn't independant in 1987, it was 1 of 15 Soviet republics. GoodDay (talk) 03:58, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I am not changing anything, I am citing mainstream scholarly research and the involved wikieditors' opinions on how to present birth place for Baltic citizens. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The illegal aspect is just your POV. Clearly it wasn't void - he converted that Soviet passport into a Russian one. His family were legal, Soviet citizens. When he was born in Estonia, he didn't get an Estonian birth cerficiate, because it didn't exist.--Львівське (говорити) 04:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Occupying powers do tend to issue their own documents on the occupied territory, which does not legalise them or make the occupied country nonexistent.
I don't see the point of your arguments - if Estonian SSR = Estonia, then why not list it as such? If Komarov was born in the Soviet Union then why does the majority of sources not represent it as such? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Simple, and I've said it a few times now: Styleguides. Those same sources you are clinging to to prove he "wasn't born in the Soviet Union" also use "Russia" instead of Soviet Union - so unless you're claiming those sources also say Russia was occupied...--Львівське (говорити) 19:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Estonian SSR doesn't equate with Estonia. The former was a Soviet republic, the latter was/is a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
OK, then you disagree with Lvivske who writes: "...the Estonian SSR was still 'Estonia' just as the Ukrainian SSR was 'Ukraine' and so on." --Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree that they are the same politcal entities. You're thinking geographically, not politically. GoodDay (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
It's still the same "republic" or "state", just a different political structure / official title. Estonia, whether in the USSR or not, was still Estonia. One is official title, the other (soviet one) would still be Estonia colloquially. The Russian Tsardom, Empire, Federation, and SFSR are all still "Russia", despite the changing politics.--Львівське (говорити) 19:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Personally I would just have Narva, Soviet Union like used to be the agreed way to deal with it. But too many people complained that we had states and provinces for countries in North America so we needed to add in the Estonia SSR in as an equivalent to the states and provinces. But removing the Soviet Union part of the birthplace is just absolutely factually wrong. Edit how you want Estonia to look in the middle but you can't remove Soviet Union or you are adding a mistake to the wiki. -DJSasso (talk) 20:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

As a compromise, can we not have [[Narva]], [[Estonia]]/[[Estonian SSR]]? There seems to be two republics in place at the same time? Both republics are unique. And Estonian SSR links to the article that clearly explains the status. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Not really, because that downplays that they were born in the Soviet Union. Like it or not, he was born in the Soviet Union. Whether you want to add Estonia SSR or Estonia in the middle. He was born a Soviet Citizen. We can't treat people from this country any differently than we do every other country that had an occupying force. There are many countries past and present that are/were "occupied". We treat all of them as what they were known as at the time the person was born. For example we use East Germany for people born in East Germany, not Germany. Estonia is no different and shouldn't get any special treatment. -DJSasso (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Or did you mean [[Narva]], [[Estonia]]/[[Estonian SSR]], [[Soviet Union]]. That I could be ok with. -DJSasso (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
In that case I would use [[Narva]], [[Estonian SSR|Estonia]], [[USSR]]. Use the common name. It was commonly known as Estonia even then. The SSR is superfluous. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Disagree. We must show it as Estonian SSR. GoodDay (talk) 22:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't even know if we need to link to Estonian SSR, if we show USSR. Estonian SSR is just another stage of Estonia. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't object to using Narva, USSR or Narva, Soviet Union, even though we wouldn't be able to apply the birth city, sovereign state style for all Bio infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 07:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The Soviet Union is a large place. Secondly, it was a federation of republics. So leaving out Estonia would be incomplete. Both for the sake of their possibly being another Narva, and also that it would provide the information to the reader that it was in Estonia. There are unique place names in Canada, but even in Canada, where it uses provinces and not the higher level republics or states, that we use the province as well. There should be no objection to using Estonia as at least a part of the location. If you leave out Estonia, then the reader if they want to know where in USSR, has to read elsewhere. Estonia existed, had a president, parliament, etc. It had/has its own culture and language. It was not a county or some minor component. And that leaves out completely the historical context. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
What I can say is that what is there now is about the worst possible option. This is an infobox on a sports player. This isn't the history of Estonia page. Going into that much detail on a page not specifically about Estonia and diverging from the standard of naming the place as it was named when they were born is quite ridiculous. The current version is extremely pointy. If people need to know the history of the country they can click on the links...that's why wiki's have them. -DJSasso (talk) 17:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The wikipages on Narva, Estonia have links to all information one can desire on the history of the city and the country. Apparently this solution is not pointy enough for you. You are the one demanding to specify Komarov's birth administrative unit and the occupying country. Calling the kettle black. --Jaan Pärn (talk)
No what I am disagreeing about is having to point out that there was an occupying country or not. There is debate on whether they were occupied or they were part of the Soviet Union. The links as you mention on those pages can explain all anyone cares to know on the occupation. What should be there is Narva, Soviet Union. I don't particularely care about the administrative unit. It is the lack of Soviet Union that I have an issue with as he was born in the Soviet Union not Estonia. -DJSasso (talk) 12:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
There is no serious debate going on whether Estonia was occupied or not (unless can prove me wrong and point out an international platform where such a debate is going on or any scholars who are involved in such a debate). --Jaan Pärn (talk) 14:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I respectfully suggest using both Estonia and Estonia SSR, USSR, but we don't need to have links to occupation in the birth place slot. Both entities had claims to the territory. I doubt the records of the SSR were destroyed, though. And it could not have been completely antagonistic. A former Soviet leader was named President, after all. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:BIOG & WP:BLP should be included in this discussion. I wouldn't mind a consistency across the board adoption for all NHL & former NHL player intros & infoboxes, concerning birthplace & deathplace. GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead start the discussion - Village pump? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The onus is on you & Jaan, to get consensus for the changes you both desire. GoodDay (talk) 23:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Let me remind you that according to WP:NOCONSENSUS, the 'no consensus' verdict normally results in the revert to the last stable version, which I have just done. Apparently before Lvivske and GoodDay stepped in, everyone was happy with the simplest solution. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 07:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Meantime, we've still got to get things straigtened out, concerning NHL player's birthplaces. GoodDay (talk) 07:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
BTW, why did you contact Occupation of Baltic States about this discussion? That's an article, not a WikiProject. You might be in breach of WP:CANVASS. -- GoodDay (talk) 08:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Where is it forbidden to post notes on article talk pages? The Baltic States noticeboard is inactive (at least my post on it got no reaction) so I tried another way to contact editors with experience on the Baltic history matters. And I even did not mention this article so how is this relevant here anyway?--Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Look at the articles of almost anyone born or died in the USSR and you will see that the format is city, Soviet Republic, Soviet Union (eg Mila Kunis, Mikhail Gorbachev, Joseph Stalin). That seems to be the Wikipedia consensus on the issue: Kunis was born in the Soviet Union because Ukraine (as today's state) didn't exist at the time of her birth, and Stalin died in the Soviet Union because Russia (as today's state) didn't exist at the time of his death. Canuck89 (have words with me) 08:32, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
That's the point, unlike Ukraine, Estonia existed as a country, it was just occupied by the Soviet Union. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, it's your point. But history says otherwise. The baltic states were 3 of 15 Soviet republics & that's a fact. GoodDay (talk) 15:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Estonia did not exist as a country at all, just as an idea. The legal status of the Estonian SSR and its de jure sovereignty within the USSR were disputed by the U.S., but no one recognized 'Estonia' as an actual country. It wasn't in the United Nations, you couldn't send mail there, it didn't exist. --Львівське (говорити) 20:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

IIRC, Japan once occupied Korea and had Korean athletes use Japanese names at the Olympics. Sohn Kee-chung et al. We do not list those people as having been born in Japan. People born in Poland during WW II are not listed as being born in Germany. The US at the time recognized Estonia as being occupied, as did many other countries - thus he is Estoniam. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Correct, and may I add, not only the U.S but international law as a whole regarded Estonia as occupied. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a federal or international agency. We work on consensus. We should be informed by these things, but not bound by them. As they say, history is written by the victors. Do you object to listing both Estonia and 'then-USSR' in the infobox? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, we can't rewrite history, just because some people are peeved over once having been a part of the Soviet Union. GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
This is unfortunately an ignorant viewpoint and fortunately a minority one. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, this is a viewpoint of an editor who gets annoyed with PoV-pushers. We should just use Narva, Soviet Union or Narva, USSR, as is done at Template:Toronto Maple Leafs roster, so as to avoid offending anybody's sensativities. GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
A convention that can be changed. We don't have to be unwilling to accept change as we learn things. Especially since Wikipedia is changeable. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
The guy was born in the Soviet Union, that can't be disputed. BTW, can we combine this discussion at WP:HOCKEY? GoodDay (talk) 16:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
The guy was born in Soviet-occupied Estonia and that is disputed only by the Russian government and people only superficially familiar with the history of the Baltic States. You can combine anything you like. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm departing this discussion, because I've had enough of your PoV-pushing. WP:HOCKEY can decide as to what's right. GoodDay (talk) 19:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

RE: Stable? If we look at the article's history, it has bounced back and forth since it was created due to POV pushers like yourself. You've reverted myself, Canuckian89, DJSasso, goodday, and Noel baran so far this month, and are now engaged in an edit war - in complete avoidance of the discussion and consensus opinion going on here. You're walking on thin ice.--Львівське (говорити) 19:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
We can ask for protection. Maybe it would help. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I think so, this has blown wayyy larger than I thought it would have.--Львівське (говорити) 20:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Please correct me if I am wrong but this article was created by Dr.Poison on 7 April 2006 with 'Narva, Estonia' as the birth place. This remained until lvivske stepped in on 6 August 2009, which got reverted on 1 March 2010. Lvivske returned on 6 February 2011 only to be reverted immediately. The birth place remained stable at 'Narva, Estonia' from that date until 19 January 2013 and [you'll never guess who changed it. Now tell me which is the stable version and who should this article be protected from? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
That history would tell me there has never really been a stable version. But that is beside the point at this point, as he correctly mentions the far greater number of people that have weighed in on this discussion either through the talk page or edits at this point have agreed with Lvivske. But either way it probably shouldn't be changed at this point since a much larger discussion is on going now. -DJSasso (talk) 20:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Two years stability is not stable enough for you? Tens of editors have been involved in developing this article for seven years with only one of them unhappy with 'Estonia' as the birth place (and even that two years ago) until 19 January this year. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:44, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Developing the article? Tens of editors? It was a freakin' stub when you considered it 'stable'.--Львівське (говорити) 21:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Great attitude towards other editor's contribution. We are discussing the birth place, remember? And the birth place was stable at Estonia from the very first version until 19 January this year, regardless of your solo dribbling. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the birth place in the stub that was created after the 2006 draft was based on the bio, which explains that. It wasn't stable for 6 years, like you're trying to push. It was "stable" (to put it loosely) from November 2008 until April 2009 as Soviet Union. This has been a nationalist POV edit war ongoing for 5 years now. Hardly stable.--Львівське (говорити) 22:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
The only one edit warring has been you. Except for your solo performances, the birth place has been stable at Estonia from the start of the article until 19 January this year. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 09:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
lol, well that certainly isn't true, the history says otherwise (which I've even linked to above). Now you're just completely in denial...--Львівське (говорити) 18:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Currently I see 5 editors disagreeing....but that is just me. -DJSasso (talk) 20:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Don't change the subject. No consensus means a revert back to the last stable version. Will you please do that so we can continue with the discussion. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I think you missed the point....I see 5 people supporting its current status. And only 2 (you and collect) opposing it. And alaney supporting a combination of the two. I think it is consensus at this point. -DJSasso (talk) 20:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:CONSENSUS, Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus. For two years, Estonia was not disputed as Komarov's birth place. I can see this consensus has now been disputed. Consensus is determined by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. How do you suddenly determine consensus here in the middle of the discussion going on at WP:HOCKEY? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Common sense: a letter from the US or UK to a house in Estonia at that time would have been addressed to "Estonia" and not to "Soviet Union" nor to "Estonian SSR, Soviet Union". Using "Estonia" instead of "Estonian SSR" was not really important to people - the "SSR" was a formality after the country name more than anything else, (ever think or writing to "Principality of Monaco" when sending invitations to Albert?) and insisting on it now is pretty useless. His father was Karelian, and not actually "Russian" we we might note the history of Karelia and the changing of its borders if we wish to nit-pick. This would explain the Finnish/Estonian/Swedish trichotomy present at a glance. (I suspect he speaks at least a touch of Estonian and Karelian even though the languages were deprecated under Soviet rule). Cheers everyone? Collect (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm....and he doesn't speak Estonian, I'm sure sources would indicate it since he's been open about speaking Finnish/Swedish/English/Russian. Don't see why he would speak Estonian growing up at all with Russophone parents.--Львівське (говорити) 21:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
What's with the postage stamps, did you forget to read Collect's edit again? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Whatever you are trying to pull here, there is no consensus until a final decision at WP:HOCKEY and the birth place has been stable since the start of the article, regardless of your solo POV pushing. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:42, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It hasn't been stable. Just...stop trying to argue that. It wasn't. Jaan. Stahp. --Львівське (говорити) 20:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I think you as the only person who has been deleting Estonia as the birth place for years are the last authority on the matter of stability. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm hardly the only one. I've already illustrated this. With facts. Are you honestly trying to 'revise history' with the page log now? --Львівське (говорити) 21:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
As I said, please correct me if I am wrong. Before 19 January this year, who else has changed Estonia to Estonian SSR? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, regardless of what anyone thinks should be the right version, I've protected the article as I found it upon being notified of the ongoing edit war. As I've noted at WT:HOCKEY, several of you are edit warring, and I'd rather not see other admins coming in and handing out blocks. Especially since I would be very surprised if, as a Baltic States-related article, that there isn't some sort of Arbcom discretionary sanction that could come into play. Resolute 01:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

It appears the Baltic nationalists aren't gonna stop pushing their Pov-edits on this article. GoodDay (talk) 20:25, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA and WP:NOR. Articles have to be based upon WP:RS, that is policy. --Nug (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
You've just declared (in your edit-summary & via your edit) that Narva was never within the USSR & that Komarov's being born in the USSR is original research. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Well yes, you contention is WP:SYNTH which states "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." All signed newspaper articles I have found state he was born in Estonia. --Nug (talk) 20:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
We're already aware of your revisionist sources. GoodDay (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
So reliable sources such as Toronto Sun and The Globe and Mail are now "revisionist" according to you? Do you have a source that states these newspapers are "revisionist", or is this just more OR? --Nug (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources providing that Estonia was indeed within the Soviet Union: [1] and [2]. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

More sources: [3],[4], [5], [6] and [7] I can provide more sources, but as you can see - it's not original research to show Narva, Soviet Union -- GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

PS: The consensus here & at WP:HOCKEY, continues to be include Soviet Uion or USSR, in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 02:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

For the last time, you cannot conclude that a source which uses modern-day countries based on their style guide, to be making a profound statement on whether Estonia was a Soviet republic or not. This is original research. Yes, he was born in Estonia: which was a member state of the Soviet Union at the time.--Львівське (говорити) 00:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad you finally agree he was born in Estonia, which reliable sources confirm. That Estonia is now a member state of the European Union is as irrelevant as membership of the Soviet Union. --Nug (talk) 02:32, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
It's membership in the Soviet Union is incredibly relevant, as the USSR was a sovereign state, his country of origin, and the country of which he was a national.--Львівське (говорити) 03:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
It is not remotely relevant in this case, had he been old enough to play for the Soviet Union then maybe, but he was a four year old child when the USSR collapsed. The USSR was a sovereign state, but it never held sovereignty over the Baltic states, that is a verifiable fact. --Nug (talk) 04:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That's your own opinion, which flies in the face of how all of wikipedia presents birthplaces. We don't present birth places based on how long they were in the country, or other arbitrary means.--Львівське (говорити) 04:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That's the opinion of international scholarship. We do not subordinate verifiable mainsteam sources to inappropriate one-size-fits-all style guides and hence all WikiProject Estonia BLP articles have the birth place listed as Estonia. --Nug (talk) 04:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Speaking legally and academically, Estonia (and Latvia and Lithuania) maintained continuous statehood in spite of the completely illegal Annexionsbesetzung by the Soviet Union. Attempts to say otherwise are indistinguishable from the Russian/Soviet apologist-revisionists who maintain that it was "voluntary accession", that no famine of separate note occurred in Soviet Ukraine, and that the invasion of Poland was to defend it from the Germans. Now, at the same time it is also true that the occupation Estonian SSR was the de facto power exercising territorial control on the ground. If a principle is to be uniformly applied that we count the governing apparatus of the territory at the time of birth as the birth country—e.g., those born in the de facto nonexistent "Czechoslovakia" between 1939 and 1945 as either born in the Slovak Republic or Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Nazi Germany; or one born in de facto nonexistent Poland from 1939 to 1944/45 as either in the General Government or one of the Nazi-annexed provinces—then this would be acceptable, perhaps with the proviso of a footnote explaining the legal situation. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Past/Present proposal[edit]

Howabout Narva, Soviet Union (now Estonia)? GoodDay (talk) 08:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I was watching this discussion a few days ago and I agree with GoodDay on pretty much everything. This man was born in the Soviet Union. He would have had a Soviet passport. That NATO didn't recognise this "occupation" is completely irrelevant, we are not pushing any political agenda on Wikipedia, just stating the facts as they are. I would support the wording proposed above, I've seen this style used in biographies before. - filelakeshoe 16:06, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I still prefer Narva, Estonia (then USSR). More relevant to current day interpretation. I'm hoping that in any case, we can drop the Estonian SSR. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That would apply if he was born 'after' Estonia declared its independence in 1991, which would make USSR irrelevent. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Unless we were to apply the colloquial name to all Soviet states, ie, Moscow, Russia, Soviet Union. I don't think this or the above is a solution that would necessarily turn the 2 fighting around, since it would still be against the "Estonia was never in the USSR, not then, not ever" line of thinking --Львівське (говорити) 17:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Those 2 will have to get over their dislike for the USSR. GoodDay (talk) 17:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Is this Dumbopedia? Estonia declared independence in 1918 and never ceased to exist, that is mainstream scholarship. "That NATO didn't recognise this "occupation" is completely irrelevant" is just clueless. We don't write "Dublin, United Kingdom (now Ireland)" in articles like Paddy Moore, Kevin O'Flanagan, Peter Farrell, Bill Lacey, Jimmy Dunne, Paddy Coad, Johnny Carey. You guys claim you want encyclopaedic accuracy, then dismiss such accuracy and willfully misrepresent arguments like "these guys claim Estonia was never in the USSR" while doing edits like removing "then in USSR". A modicum of honesty would go a long way. --Nug (talk) 19:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, If it were up to me? I would have "Dublin, United Kingdom (now Ireland)" when between 1801 & 1922. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
So you're saying the Estonian Sovereignty Declaration was just something they did for fun? The Estonian SSR was part of the Soviet Union, a fact recognized by all countries as a matter of practice. The constitutionality of it is a matter for lawyers, not historical accuracy. Name calling and weird analogies to Irish footballers will get you nowhere.--Львівське (говорити) 19:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Um -- I know some Soviet apologists still think the annexation was lawful - but the UN Human Rights Council. international courts, the EU etc. did and do not agree. At this point, the claim that they were a normal part of the USSR is considered risible in polite society. Even the USSR treated the Baltic states as separate in many ways with separate laws and regulations. As for the claim that the US and "all countries" recognized the annexation as a "fact" - the main problem is that statement is risible as well. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
So your argument is that it was in the Soviet Union de facto, but not as a fact. Talk about risible.--Львівське (говорити) 20:03, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Just as if we were to call anyone born during WW II while under German occupation "German." The term used here is de jure and the USSR was not de jure the country involved here. That you wish to parse words - yes the Soviets had troops in Estonia, and large numbers of Estonians were exiled from that country under Soviet rule. That does not make Estonia into "the Soviet Union" at all. Any more than anyone born in the Sinai while Israel occupied it is "Israeli", Or anyone born in Finland while the USSR occupied it was "Soviet born." Or that anyone born in any occupied nation is properly identified as being of the occupying nationality. Can you see why "de jure" and "de facto" are not synonyms? Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
You still don't seem to understand the term.--Львівське (говорити) 20:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Your position, in short, is that any Palestinian born in the West Bank is actually born in Israel - right? I demur, as do 99% of the world's population. Collect (talk) 22:05, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
No, my position is that any Jew born in Nazareth, is born in Israel - if you'd like to be analogous to the Komarov situation. Conversely, any Israeli-Jew born in the West Bank/Gaza would be born in (depending on the year) Palestine. Palestine, unlike Estonia, has international recognition and UN observer status - Estonia had nothing. Zilch. Hot air. --Львівське (говорити) 22:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
So much for logic then -- try a person born in a section of Finland when the Soviets controlled that section -- the person is not a Finn but a Soviet by your interesting standards. By the way, "Palestine" had no UN status for many years - so that strange "Israeli-Jew" dichotomy you seem to find fit to use is meaningless. That you find Balkan statehood to be "hot air" is also quite telling - and not in a good way. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Are you referring to the KFSSR? If so, then absolutely, this is clear-cut history. The Palestinian example is something you brought up, people born in the Palestinian territories are not Israeli citizens, if you followed world events you would know this. Balkan 'statehood' is hot air in that it was just a fantasy of NATO that was dreamt up during the Cold War to stick it to the Russians - spite does not a real country make - let's stick to reality--Львівське (говорити) 03:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────In agreemtn with Lvivske, let's not re-write history. GoodDay (talk) 04:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I've been doing some digging into this topic and it appears that a lot of countries recognized Soviet legal authority. It was essentially NATO vs. Warsaw Pact + Australia, + New Zealand + Netherlands + Iran + Sweden + Spain + India + China + other msc. Asian & African countries. Far from the lopsided picture the above have been arguing.--Львівське (говорити) 07:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Narva, Estonia (then "Estonian SSR"). Simple and to the point. Collect (talk) 00:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Alternatively, Andrew Podniek's 2003 book Players:The Ultimate A–Z Guide To Everyone Who Has Ever Played In the NHL gives (for instance) the birth place of Artūrs Irbe as "Riga, USSR (Latvia)". Now, the book won't have anyone from Estonia, as Komarov is claimed to be the first Estonian in the NHL, but since a few have equated Estonia to Latvia to Lithuania in this debate, that convention certainly has legs in reliable sources. Resolute 00:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
In fact, the IIHF Guide & Record Book 2012 uses the same convention. Komarov's birthplace is listed as "Narva, Soviet Union (Estonia)" on page 407. Resolute 00:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Good find. Also, O-Pee-Chee, Topps (Riga, USSR), and another (Riga, Soviet Union). Of course, the NHLPA website lists per modern country (as We've yet to see a source so far say "X, Baltic" and "Moscow, Soviet Union", as if to make a distinction or stand, from a single source. It's either USSR or modern country, no in between. (...funny, just as I type this, Leo Komarov is being interviewed on Sportsnet lol)--Львівське (говорити) 00:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to rain on your parade guys, see Who's Who in Hockey by Stan and Shirley Fischler, Andrews McMeel Publishing, 2003: Arturs Irbe, Born: Riga, Latvia, February 2, 1967[8] --Nug (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh, indeed. uses modern nations irregardless of historical accuracy as well. The truth is, we're long past the point of arguing sources as the basis of a permanent answer. We've got multiple sources presenting both cases. (to wit: the CBC described Komarov as being a "Russian-born Finn" on HNIC on Saturday. "Russian" obviously and incorrectly being used in place of "Soviet Union".) I've maintained from the start of this debate that dropping the USSR part for players born in the Soviet era is an anachronism that we at Wikipedia should avoid, even if others choose to do otherwise. Resolute 01:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
You know that Narva, USSR is imprecise because there are many Narvas in the USSR, there is Narva, Primorsky Krai and Narva, Krasnoyarsk Krai. However using an historical place name for a place of birth for contemporary living person is the anachronism. We are not talking about dead historical people. On what basis do you conclude that Wikipedia should regard what NHL do as "wrong"? Please read WP:MODERNPLACENAME:
"For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one. Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources does the same;"
All BLPs are articles that discuss the present, there is no appropriate context to use USSR/Estonia SSR in this particular BLP, Komarov was a toddler when the USSR dissappeared, it is irrelevant to his career. I wouldn't be surprised if NHL has a policy similar to WP:MODERNPLACENAME when it comes to publishing a player profile, but apparently we ignore it here. --Nug (talk) 02:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
You realize you're citing a guideline for articles about places, and applying it to bios, right? The entirety of bios on wikipedia would disagree with you. Bithplace, past tense, must be the place of birth at the time he was born (which just sounds silly that I have to explain it)--Львівське (говорити) 02:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
That is your opinion of course, and all we are doing is going in circles. Myself, I consider that your birthplace is set at the time you were born and no amount of revisionist history can change that. As noted, to argue otherwise is to create anachronisms, which are by definition historical inaccuracies. lists Jaromir Jagr's birth place as Kladno, Czech Republic, a nation that did not exist until he was 21 years old. Jagr even played internationally for Czechoslovakia. (To get even more absurd, it also says Stan Mikita was born in Slovakia, a half-century before modern Slovakia was formed. And it isn't referring to the WWII Slovak Republic). This is not an accurate representation of history. Resolute 02:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Interesting -- but Czechoslovakia was a combination of two areas -- thus the name "Slovakia" predates Mikita's birth, as does "Czech" ("Bohemia and Moravia" for Sherlock Holmes fans) - both being names for those areas while ruled by the Hapsburgs. Thus, those two terms antedate "Czechoslovakia" as a nation which only dates to post WW I. Meanwhile, I suggest that it is up to self-identification if there is any doubt as to what a living person considers himself (or herself). Collect (talk) 03:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, if we were talking demonyms or ethnonyms --Львівське (говорити) 03:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Well if both Jaromir Jagr and Stan Mikita both obtained Canadian passports they would have Kladno, Czech Republic and Sokolce, Slovakia annotated as their places of birth respectively. Those people working at Statistics Canada must be real dopes as they define Place of Birth as:
"Place of birth refers to the name of the province, territory or country in which the person was born. It may refer to a province or territory if the person was born in Canada. It refers to a country if the person was born outside Canada. The geographic location is specified according to boundaries current at the time the data are collected, not the boundaries at the time of birth."[9]
Apparently the NHL concur when collecting player statistics. Good thing we have Wikipedia to set them straight. ;)) --Nug (talk) 03:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
a) He had a Soviet passport so, do you really want to go down the "we should follow passport rules" road? b) Template:Infobox person : Place of birth: city, administrative region, sovereign state. Use the name of the birthplace at the time of birth c) Estonia did not even attempt to declare sovereignty until 1988, case closed.--Львівське (говорити) 04:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
a) Irrelevant as Soviet passport are now invalid documents, b) so someone added some text without first achieving consensus. Concensus still hasn't be found on its use as late as November last year in Template_talk:Infobox_person#RfC:_country_of_birth, with the final comment of the RFC: "I mostly agree with Powers T opinion. In addition, an example: Considering people who where born during World War II in Germany as "place of birth: Nazi Germany", is kind of insulting. Even more important, it doesn't really serve the point, because people being born in this era spent most of their adult life in another era. Conclusion: If the birthplace nation/territory did not exist long enough to span over a persons life, it should rather be neglected"[10] c) So what, scholarship shows that the USSR never obtained sovereignty in the first place. --Nug (talk) 10:24, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Collect - You are conflating nationality with birthplace. We already note players by their self-identified nationalities. For instance, Jagr is not described as a Czechoslovakian player because his current nationality is the Czech Republic. Robert Nilsson is a Swedish player though he was born in Canada. Birth place, however, is set when you are born. This article is a mess because of all the edit warring, but Komarov should be noted simply as being an Estonian player in the lead as we list players by current nationality in that spot. His birth place, however, was set at birth. And that should be some variation of Narva, Estonia, USSR.

Nug - For statistical purposes, it makes a great deal of sense for StatsCan to track immigration by current national boundaries. But we are not tracking this data for statistical purposes. They are interested in the current nationality of people more than their birth place. We care about history, and you have yet to present a credible argument as to why we should alter it.

Also Nug, general question: do you believe Wikipedia should exclude diacritics in the names of people? Resolute 15:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Just as a general note for those not aware of a parallel discussion happening on the hockey project page, there is a straw poll being conducted on how to present Komarov's birthplace. Resolute 15:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
@Resolute:Komarov should be noted simply as being an Estonian player in the lead as we list players by current nationality in that spot. - don't mean to nitpick, but he wouldn't be described as Estonian, he's Finnish-Russian (he's not ethnic Estonian, nor a national) --Львівське (говорити) 15:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Ahh crap, you're right. Even I'm getting confused now. Resolute 16:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
What's so confusing about a Swedish-speaking Karelian Finn with Russian citizenship originally from the ESSR being born in the Soviet Union and not Estonia? --Львівське (говорити) 16:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • sorry, I was bold-editing and only afterwards had seen that "colossal" talk ;) best regards --Postoronniy-13 (talk) 01:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Silent consensus at related Rfc?[edit]

Apparently, silent consensus has been given for "Narva, Estonia" at Rfc & thus here. Who am I? to stand alone against Baltic revionism. GoodDay (talk) 00:25, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

There was no such silent consensus for that. The RfC clearly rejected that. What is being discussed is a compromise solution. Your changes were all just pointy edits. Please just step back from the situation and take a breath. -DJSasso (talk) 11:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Right now, for the sake of peace, agreement at something seems even more important than what is agreed upon. Hence, I suggest DJSasso to follow GoodDay's balanced decision and behaviour and not to whip up strife again.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
And again not whipping up strife, suggesting we work on the compromise. But you targeting a specific editor is of course whipping up strife. -DJSasso (talk) 13:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

No consensus[edit]

It appears WP:HOCKEY members cannot even follow their own guideline at Template:Infobox ice hockey player, which requires a valid ISO_3166-1 country code, and there is now no current country code for the Soviet Union. For the umpteenth time, Template:Infobox person requires a country that held sovereignty over the place of birth and it is a fact that the Soviet Union failed to acquire that sovereignty, nor is there any consensus for it. --Nug (talk) 20:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The template does not say it has to be a current country code. It links to the country code page as well, not the ISO 3166-1 page. So based on the consensus that has emerged at the many forums this has been opened at if we are using country codes then we would be using SUN as that was the country code off the Soviet Union at the time of birth. -DJSasso (talk) 20:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I love the disingenuous hypocrisy of this complaint. I am curious where you read that an ISO 3166-1 code is required, Nug? But if you like, we can certainly discuss changing to SUN as DJSasso suggests. Resolute 22:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
SUN isn't a valid country code, it is obsolete and in few years time it will be available for reuse. --Nug (talk) 11:11, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Very well. Your objection, and implied support for USSR, is noted. Resolute 13:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I never implied such support. ISO 3166-1 is the best know country code, or is there a special one for ice hockey ;) It is evident that WP:HOCKEY members seemingly have difficulty abiding by WP:HOCKEY's own style guide for using country codes.[11],[12],[13]. --Nug (talk) 19:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

We should have 'atleast' all the Baltic NHL player bios consistent, folks. GoodDay (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I have requested this page be edit protected again. Please stop with the edits until the RfC can be closed by an uninvolved admin. -DJSasso (talk) 12:27, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The protection should be extended indefinitley, 'until' the dispute (and it is a dispute) is settled. GoodDay (talk) 20:23, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Compromise before our eyes?[edit]

It appears as though we already have a compromise in this article. We've got Estonian born player in the content & Narva, Estonian SSR, Soviet Union in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The RFC was closed with no consensus achieved for your preferred form, are you now going to change back to the form of birth place that has WP:EDITCONCENSUS in WP:ESTONIA BLPs and has been stable in this article since 2007? --Nug (talk) 19:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
As Ymblanter told you: "I am afraid you have difficulties discriminating between no consensus and your way. No consensus means precisely that no rule has been established." -sche (talk) 19:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Since the Rfc has expired, we'll have to go on an article-by-article basis. GoodDay (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Which means we use the birth place as indicated in most RS. Until that we follow WP:NOCONSENSUS. Jaan Pärn (talk) 20:06, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
PS: Seeing as there's only a handful of hockey bio articles-in-question, the process won't be too gruelling. GoodDay (talk) 20:10, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
You should read WP:NOCONSENSUS :"In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." As far as I can see that is only applicable to this one article. --Nug (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
PPS: I believe -sche, there's roughly over 20 such articles. GoodDay (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Please don't disruptively edit these other articles to make a WP:POINT. --Nug (talk) 20:20, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Here we go again[edit]

The Rfc is closed, this article's protection has expired & the fight has been re-started by Nug. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

The RFC was closed no consensus, per WP:NOCONSENSUS :"In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." Please stop this disruptive behaviour. --Nug (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
You knew that you'd likely get a reaction, if you made that change. Why couldn't you leave well enough 'alone'. GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Sincerely, what is so confusing about WP:NOCONSENSUS? Perhaps we can help to explain? Jaan Pärn (talk) 07:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:CIVIL, no comment. GoodDay (talk) 13:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

In agreement with Marc87's edits. GoodDay (talk) 19:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

No consensus exists for it. --Nug (talk) 22:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced claim in the lede removed[edit]

I have removed "Komarov is the first person born in Estonia to play in the NHL" from the lede, as it is unsourced, and I was unable to find a reliable source. It is also not mentioned in the body of the article. (talk) 05:03, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 February 2014[edit]

Category:Olympic ice hockey players of Finland Category:Ice hockey players at the 2014 Winter Olympics Joeykai (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done, non-controversial--Ymblanter (talk) 13:52, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 22 February 2014[edit]

Category:Medalists at the 2014 Winter Olympics Category:Olympic bronze medalists for Finland Category:Olympic medalists in ice hockey Joeykai (talk) 18:12, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done this one as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)


So was his father Russian or Karelian? The references do not match. Certainly his father was a Soviet citizen, but it appears that a Karelian rather than a Russian. Tomh009 (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)