Talk:Leonid Brezhnev

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Good article Leonid Brezhnev has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

POV[edit]

Some parts of this seem rather POV:

  • "Brezhnev's weakness for undeserved medals was proven by his poorly written memoirs..."
  • It mentions his "vanity" twice.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Ugh. I can't access the book cited, but it reads like a tabloid journalist cherry picked a paragraph and came up with a poorly constructed piece of indictment. His 'weakness' for medals and awards is notable, but most definitely not in the current incarnation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:04, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Galina Brezhneva[edit]

This article says: "Galina in her later life became an alcoholic who together with a circus director started a gold-bullion fraud gang in the later years of the Soviet Union". However, the gold bullion fraud is not mentioned in her article. It mentions jewelry smuggling, but says that she was never convicted.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:33, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. Robert Service seems to be referenced again. Interestingly, very little of the book can be accessed through Google books, and certainly not anything beyond about the page 43 mark. Has anyone actually verified that the content is in his book? From my knowledge, the Perestroika period generated a lot of rumours that were investigated as a matter of course due to backstabbing and denouncing on the level of hysteria... but nothing came of the investigation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Jack Upland and Iryna Harpy: I'm the author of 99% of this article... Galina Brezhneva was not arrested because high standing Soviet officers (and their children were not arrested. For instance Yuri Andropov had proof that Sharof Rashidov was involved in corruption, but the man was removed from all his posts and received a generous state pension. It wouldn't be good propaganda that the daughter of the Soviet leader was involved in corruption, so the media never mentioned it. --TIAYN (talk) 21:18, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
But that doesn't explain the inconsistency between that page and this one.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:49, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Jack Upland: I'll check the book, but no worries, I also wrote the Galina Brezhneva article. I'll try to update later today (22ish Norwegian time). --TIAYN (talk) 05:19, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
@Jack Upland and Iryna Harpy: Service; "He [Brezhnev] permitted his family to set a grotesque example. His daughter Galina was a promiscuous alcoholic who took up with a circus director running a gold-bullion fraud gang..." Good enough? :) --TIAYN (talk) 20:59, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Seems biased and doesn't address the inconsistency. Gold bullion is not jewelry and diamonds.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:06, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
I echo Jack Upland's concerns about the bullion, and the unencyclopaedic tone of the content. Of course Wikipedia reflects quality sources, and no one expects that he (or his wife) are painted as being anything other than what reliable sources tell us about the Brezhnevs, but colourful language presented as absolute fact is not a neutral tone. At the very least, it requires WP:INTEXT attribution per WP:CLOP. It is only the one source being used for the content, therefore the voice of the author must be attributed or modified considerably. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
I've removed the reference because of the discrepancy.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:34, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Assassination attempt[edit]

I have updated this article with important (and fascinating) info about an assassination attempt at President Brezhnev. It has been reverted twice. I have no time for an edit war, pursuing WP:ANI or drafting a fuller section therein, so I leave it to one of the more experienced editors (Iryna Harpy?) to step in, rescue it and develop it further:

On Jan. 22, 1969 there was an unsuccessful attempt at his life. One person was killed and four wounded, but Brezhnev escaped unhurt[1]. 

See also the discussion on the other Wikipedian's Talk Page about it for more context: the WP:GA status, etc. My take on this specious argument: imagine a GA WP article about e.g. Reagan NOT mentioning the assassination attempt on his life. Why should Brezhnev be treated differently?

Zezen (talk) 14:02, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Levkovich, Yevgeny (2017-01-22). "Why did Soviet Union's most notorious would-be-assassin shoot at Brezhnev?". Russia Beyond The Headlines. Retrieved 2017-02-19. 
Either you develop it yourself, or wait until someone does. That simple Zezen (talk · contribs). --TIAYN (talk) 14:40, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
@Zezen and TIAYN: I'm flat out IRL for at least another month, but I'm happy to take a look into it as soon as I have the opportunity. I used to have access to Soviet magazines, journals, etc., and have recollections about the incident from childhood (yeah, I'm gettin' old). I'll dig around and see what I can come up with. There are bound to be Russian language publications available online referring to the incident. Cheers to you both! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:14, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy - thank you! We are in no hurry. @The other (reverting) Wikipedian(s), please read WP:NPA and WP:PASSIVE before such further comments.

Off to the (Eastern European) mountains and away from the bytes and archives. Без отдыха и конь не скачет - as Brezhnev used to say ;).

Zezen (talk) 06:24, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be entered under "Repression" with the information that the assassin was treated as a mental patient.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:13, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Not under Repression, by far. By the same token, e.g. Lee Harvey Oswald was even more 'repressed' - as he was extrajudicially terminated with extreme prejudice ;).

If anything, Brezhnev's assassin was practically pardoned, given the USSR mores and the legal practice of the day. That is what struck me most here.

Привіт з Бескиди to all! Zezen (talk) 13:06, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy - so, after almost two weeks: shall you or shall I? Very busy now again, but can (re)take a dig at it. Zezen (talk) 18:44, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

No need to "develop" this or "dig up" anything – there's already the Attempted assassination of Leonid Brezhnev. SteveStrummer (talk) 19:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, SteveStrummer. I hadn't even gotten around to checking Wikipedia! As there's no mention of it in the body of the article, I've temporarily added a 'See also' section with the relevant wikilink. Ultimately, a very brief summary with a hatnote to the main article could be introduced as a section, but I think it's best to try to work it into the existing content. Perhaps Zezen could find an appropriate section but, it could be difficult as there isn't any RS information as to the motivation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:56, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
How strange! It's difficult to insert here because the chronological narrative in this article ceases when he becomes leader.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
@Jack Upland: Yes, I perused the article and thought the same. Given that it's been broken up into economics and international relations, there's nowhere to broach the subject without the motive as it would end up implying a motive. Technically speaking, the only other way would be to work the content into the lead without it looking UNDUE (in lay terms, 'sticking out like a sore thumb'). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
There shouldn't be anything in the lead that isn't in the body... Short of reworking the article, I wonder if "Repression" could be changed to a neutral heading so that issues like this could be included...--Jack Upland (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Dear SteveStrummer - thank you so much for advising us of Attempted assassination of Leonid Brezhnev. Procrastination is useful sometimes ;), as otherwise we'd have engaged in an edit war here if I was to gradually develop this section on my own. I wonder how Leonid Brezhnev had gained its GA status without mentioning it or at least linking it at all.Zezen (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Look, GA status doesn't mean much. Brezhnev is accused here of awarding himself medals, but this is Wikipedia's crazed obsession. The GA process is entirely internally focussed and self-referential. There is no examination of external evidence. Is the moon really made of green cheese? "Bite it and see" is original research. There are reliable sources which mention this, so this is a GA because I couldn't find any grammatical errors. I have written a couple of articles, none of which are GA. If someone nominated them as GA, they would feel the point of my poisoned umbrella.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:41, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

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