Talk:Lesbian

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Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 10:58, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2025

In the Health section, change "Some sexually transmitted infections are communicable between women, including human papillomavirus (HPV)—specifically genital warts—squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis, syphilis, and herpes simplex virus (HSV)." to "Some sexually transmitted infections are communicable between women, including human papillomavirus (HPV), trichomoniasis, syphilis, and herpes simplex virus (HSV)." The current phrasing implies that genital warts are caused by all of the listed diseases, which is untrue. Genital warts are caused by HPV infection, and they are not caused by any of the other listed diseases/pathogens. Also, I removed squamous intraepithelial lesion entirely because it is a potential downstream effect of HPV infection, not a sexually transmitted infection in and of itself. Riot Grrrl 999 (talk) 15:23, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

 Done DrySoup (talk) 20:25, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Introduction: "harsh punishment"/"lack of documentation"

The article's introductory paragraph states "Throughout history, women have not had the same freedom or independence as men to pursue homosexual relationships, but neither have they met the same harsh punishment as gay men in some societies. Instead, lesbian relationships have often been regarded as harmless, unless a participant attempts to assert privileges traditionally enjoyed by men. As a result, little in history was documented to give an accurate description of how female homosexuality was expressed. "

Proposed change to: "Written history contains less frequent record of female homosexuality than male homosexuality, though mentions of lesbianism date back to at least A.D. 100.", and add a note on Lucian of Samosata's depiction of a lesbian relationship to the section on ancient Greek lesbianism. If anybody knows earlier representations of lesbians, let me know so I can adjust. Please speak up quickly before I start working on the article.

Reasons the current introductory statement does not match what is in the article: -The article repeatedly mentions the lack of clear documentation by women about their own sexuality, or about women's sexuality in general. (Quotes from the rest of the article: "little in history was documented to give an accurate description of how female homosexuality was expressed.", "female sexuality is often not adequately represented in texts and documents. Until very recently, much of what has been documented about women's sexuality has been written by men, in the context of male understanding, and relevant to women's associations to men", "Because of society's reluctance to admit that lesbians exist", "Much of the daily lives of women in ancient Greece is unknown, in particular their expressions of sexuality", "the lack of interest from 19th-century historians who specialized in Greek studies regarding the daily lives and sexual inclinations of women in Greece", "No historical documentation exists ", "most discourse on homosexuality centers on men", "lesbians and material focusing on female homosexuality are frequently suppressed"). There is also a wide variety of cultural practice and comparisons discussed. From the Aztec (both male and female homosexuality are documented and disapproved of), to the ancient Greeks (male pederasty is sanctioned, and next to no writing exists from women's perspectives), to the ancient Chinese (women were permitted to have relationships with other women, but not to decline sex with men)... Out of the thousands of cultures that exist and have existed, and with the ways that different misogynistic practices have affected the possibilities of lesbian lives, I think it would take far more documentation and research than is contained in this article to make a blanket statement on the relative sanctions each sex faces without qualification.

-The article in fact mentions many severe punishments that have been meted out to lesbians ("sodomy between women was included in acts considered unnatural and punishable by burning to death", "she was placed in solitary confinement for the last 40 years of her life", "punishments ranged from death, to time in the pillory", "other women who were accused of using dildos, such as two nuns in 16th century Spain executed for using "material instruments", were punished more severely than those who did not" (from other print reading of mine, this punishment included burning at the stake; I can track it down and add it); "lesbians are sometimes raped by heterosexual men with a goal of punishment", "very public beating death of a woman amid shouts of "Damned lesbian!", "Corrective rape is reported to be on the rise in South Africa.". This points to a common blind spot in historical documentation; severe punishments that are considered perfectly legal, such as corrective rape by husbands and fathers or honor killings, does not show up in the records of legal punishment, leaving the severe punishments lesbians have faced in the undocumented private sphere. Apart from that more abstract point, this article also fails to mention other sanctions and punishments that currently exist and have existed; in both Mauritania and Uganda under sharia law, female homosexual acts can receive the death penalty under certain circumstances (e.g. repeat offences), and in Yemen, lesbians can be imprisoned for being gay. Lesbians also face state repression, including torture and death, in other instances, from Russia to Africa; in a tragic and well-documented instance, Sara Hergazi, a lesbian activist, was tortured by the Egyptian government for displaying a rainbow flag. (I will also edit the article to add this information).

Indeed, reading through the article, I think a far more accurate statement is that female homosexuality is much less documented than male homosexuality, usually as a direct result of women being less documented than men, and that female homosexuality, occupying such a different social and legal position to male homosexuality and men, should be discussed on its own terms. Seven77seas (talk) 05:34, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

"Please speak up quickly before I start working on the article." – Since most people have lives outside of Wikipedia editing, it would be prudent to wait at least 4 days before embarking on making major changes to the article. I suggest you post a notice about your proposal in WT:LGBTQ and WT:WOMEN. Pyxis Solitary (yak). ⚢ 11:41, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I came back to this in five days, so I'll make the main proposed edit discussed above. The talk page currently remains open for discussion. Seven77seas (talk) 22:07, 21 May 2025 (UTC)