Talk:Liberation of Paris
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The title of this article is POV
Too many images?
When I scrolled through this article, the first thing that I noticed was that there are many small images, to a point where the article seems cluttered with them. Does anyone agree that several of the images are unnecessary and should be removed? —ems24 02:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. 17:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The sources used to "analyse" Choltitz' role during this battle are a joke, to say the least. I have a stack of copies from the original German war documents from the military archives in Freiburg and there is little to support the French version (as the article claims). For example, Choltitz explicitly ordered not to destroy any food "as a matter of principle" on 18 August 1944. But some poorly researched and politically motivated TV documentary seems to be a far more reliable source. Besides, it is not true that Choltitz has still an overall positive image in Germany. Recently, it has become public that he admitted to have executed Jews on the Eastern Front. But it is also true that he was in much closer contact with the German military resistance against Hitler than we had previously known. In summary, Choltitz was neither a hero nor a pure Nazi war criminal. Please see the results from Sönke Neitzel, Taping Hitler's Generals, with Choltitz' eavesdropped conversations in captivity. This Wiki article definitely needs some improvement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
From the text:
In his memoir Brennt Paris? ("Is Paris Burning?"), first published in 1950, Choltitz describes himself as the saviour of Paris.[dubious – discuss] .....
Whether Choltitz "saved" Paris does not matter in his description of his historical role. The question is whether he I do not have his book, so someone who does have it can cite his perception: did he say that he made the decision that kept the German Armed forces from demolishing Paris? On this Walther Choltitz is the definitive authority. Pbrower2a (talk) 12:45, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
French expatriate/foreign involvement
It is reported tens of thousands of ethnic French, either are expatriates holding dual nationality in other countries (mainly neutral or not involved in the war) and children of French citizens overseas, participated in the Liberation of Paris. One example was Mexican-born Rene Luis Campeon, a lieutanant, was thought as the first French Free Forces person to entered the city of Paris in the Liberation process. Some of the diaspora loyal to their countryment in France came from Australia, Southern Africa and South America. They entered France in secret or in safety by international agreements from Britain although a few came through Switzerland and Spain, then to encountered the civilian Resistance whom were in contact with the exiled Free French. This is alike the numerous stories of French, British and American volunteers on both sides of the Spanish Civil War, especially the British-born George Orwell whom fought for the Spanish Republican side as a devoted socialist will later become a political novelist author. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:47, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I couldn't find any source for american direct involvment into this battle. Eisenhower the supreme commander of allied armies was against intervention at that time. French leaders had to disobey to launch this operation. Besides, wikipedia article for Raymond O'barton is considered lacking sources and it doesn't even say his division participated directly to fighting. 4th Infantry Division article says instead that "they gave French forces the first place in the liberation of their capital" which, to me, sounds like an euphemism to say that they let the french do the fighting.
If someone can bring sources please do. Otherwise, with no reliable sources and to prevent further vandalism like EpidemiaCorinthiana edit, removing USA flag from the infobox seems the most indicated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- I guess you're French? If so, I can appreciate the difficulties in finding sources in another language; but let us give credit where it is due. The following is of import:
Although the Germans had resisted effectively on 24 August, their defenses melted away during the night as Choltitz ordered Aulock to withdraw behind the Seine. General Barton, who had assembled the 4th Division near Arpajon, selected the 12th Infantry--which was closest to Paris and had lost over 1,000 casualties while attached to the 30th Division at Mortain and needed a boost to morale--to lead the division into Paris on 25 August. Motorized, the regiment started to take the road through Athis-Mons and Villeneuve-le-Roi, but gunfire from the east bank of the Seine deflected the movement away from the river. Without encountering resistance, the troops, screened by the 102d Cavalry Group, reached Notre Dame cathedral before noon, 25 August, "the only check . . . being the enormous crowd of Parisians in the streets welcoming the troops." Units of the regiment occupied the railroad stations of Austerlitz, Lyon, and Vincennes, and reconnaissance elements pushed northeast and east to the outskirts of the city. (Map 18)
While American troops secured the eastern half of Paris, the French took the western part. Langlade's command advanced to the Arc de Triomphe, Billotte's to Place du Châtelet, the spearheads of both columns meeting later at Rond Point des Champs Elysées. Dio's troops, split into two task forces, moved to the Ecole Militaire and to the Palais Bourbon. Several sharp engagements took place with Germans entrenched in public buildings, some of them of great historic value--Luxembourg, Quai d'Orsay, Palais Bourbon, Hôtel des Invalides, and Ecole Militaire among others. About two thousand Germans remained in the Bois de Boulogne. To avoid a fanatic last-ditch struggle that might irreparably damage the city, Choltitz' formal surrender was necessary. Though Nordling presented him with an ultimatum from Billotte, Choltitz refused to capitulate.
- Note the 12th Infantry and the 102nd Cavalry were U.S. Army units. This text can be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Breakout/USA-E-Breakout-29.html .
W. B. Wilson (talk) 06:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- "to me, sounds like an euphemism to say that they let the french do the fighting."" The opposite is more nearly true. US units made the liberation possible even in the narrow sense of who was doing the fighting during August (never mind the whole Normandy campaign). The 2eme DB was allowed to enter Paris first because Eisenhower was enough of a diplomat to see that it was necessary. Otherwise US units could easily have entered first. The 2eme DB partied their way into Paris. DMorpheus2 (talk) 18:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed
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Edited for grammar
2605:A000:DFC0:5C:6DF5:185B:8D1:2F20 (talk) 20:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC) I spent an hour going through this entry and correcting obvious grammar and spelling errors. I also separated many run-on sentences. I will not remove the marker requesting this type of clean-up unless someone else has checked my work to certify that the task is complete.
German Surrender section
It's utter nonsense. It should describe what happened at the surrender, not be a character assassination of a dead man. I cleaned up some of the ridiculous stuff, but I think it should be rewritten completely. --18.104.22.168 (talk) 05:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The first item under External Links may once have connected to a French page about the Liberation in Engish, but at present the link redirects to a tourist site. The link is:
- Liberation of Paris – Official French website (in English)
But follow it and it leads you here: http://uk.france.fr/ (or to other language versions of the the same page depending on where in the world you are).