Talk:Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114
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- 1 PoV
- 2 Intro
- 3 Cairo East/Cairo West contradiction
- 4 Rming statement that needs to be sourced
- 5 Radio contact
- 6 Israel perspective?
- 7 Terrorist delivery
- 8 Bias
- 9 Question about compensation
- 10 Comparison in tone....
- 11 Ethiopian shootdown?
- 12 Contradictions
- 13 If I had the time....
- 14 External links modified
I changed the last paragraph to reflect a neutral POV-Julian Diamond 07:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The intro needs to be fleshed out. It's basically not even an intro. I'm feeling lazy though :) --Jaysweet 22:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
A large part of this article appears to be closely paraphrased and, in parts, directly plagarized from Gary Klein's book "Sources of Power." 10 April 2007
NPOV the article, to reflect the fact that Israelis were occupying Egyptian land, and deliberately attacked a civilian airplane without good reason.
- Disagree. Firstly the Sinai had been used to launch attacks against Israel and Egypt refused to discuss peace terms. Israel keeping the territory is at least understandable. Secondly at the time the Arabs were staging frequent raids into Israeli territory, so Israeli pilots would beleive they were acting in self defence against an act of terrorism. The plane got lost, flew into a high tension airspace, did not comunicate to any airtraffic controller and ignored clear signals. Finally if the Israeli planes were close enough for hand signals the aircrew should have realised that they were F-4 Phantoms ( which look very different to MIGS ) and seen the Star of David on the aircrft. And please sign your posts. David.j.james 16:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
There might have been a 'ceasefire' in 1973 but neither side acted much like it. The Continuation war was underway. Egypt and Israel were both engaged in aggressive actions.
The fact that Israel initially lied should be noted. This was an embarrassing incident especially after the the stink Israel made after one of the O-49 Connies my friend Irvn Schindler had procured for Israel before it's independence was shot down over Bulgaria less than 20 years before.
Everyone screwed this one up.Mark Lincoln 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
occupying Sinaiwhen Moshe Sharrett and Nasse
Cairo East/Cairo West contradiction
The article says under the "Airliner perspective" section that Cairo East (CE) is the airport and Cairo West (CW) the airbase. It also says the pilots thought they had overflown CE and the Egyptian Migs (IAF F-4s) were escorting them back to CW. Finally it says that when the pilots noticed it was an airbase they thought there was a mistake so they flew west...presumably AWAY from CE. This makes no sense. Anynobody 09:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that the crew were not up to snuff that day. They made numerous mistakes. They were clearly not up to being involved in any 'conspiracy.'
A bad case of head up and locked.
Followed by head up the asshole.
This got them killed.Mark Lincoln 16:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Egypt offered peace in 1971. Israel - Rabin with US influence - rejected it completely. Israel's first rejection of peace was in 1954 when Moshe Sharrett and Nasser had held secret talks. Sharrett knew the Arabs, had lived with them and understood Nasser wanted peace and stability. Dyan, ben-Gurion et al rejected it out of hand and attacked Egypt in 1956 occupying Sinai until they were forced out in 1957 and the count down to the Six Day War began.
Rming statement that needs to be sourced
18.104.22.168 added the following paragraph that seems to be at least in need of sourcing:
- I strongly agree. Anynobody 08:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like propaganda typical of both sides in the region. Mark Lincoln 16:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Theres no mention about the Israeli pilots trying to commincate with the aircraft using radio. Did they not try, or not have the right radios or did the aircrew not check the right frequenices? Or what? David.j.james 16:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Don't know for sure but I think you're right, I'd assumed it was attempted but the fact that neither side knew what freq to transmit/receive on probably kept them from being able to establish contact. It's the same basic issue with Korean Airlines Flight 902 and Korean Airlines Flight 007, radio contact wasn't established. Anynobody 05:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Usually military aircraft would only - at best - be able to communicate on an emergency channel. I don't know what equipment the IAF had. Mark Lincoln 16:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there really a need for an obvious attempt to rationalize shooting down a civilian airliner? Lacking any citations, coupled with an absolute ridiculous explanation, it reeks of propaganda. You'd seriously have to be an idiot to buy that for a second.
- This whole article is undercited as a whole. WP:NPOV demands that all sides of an issue be covered and simple wisdom should tell you that "You'd seriously have to be an idiot to buy that" on an article about Israel or any other hotly disputed topic isn't the most helpful way to discuss things.--Prosfilaes 12:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I changed the wording slightly to reflect that the justifications are Israels opinion. Previously it sounded like the article itself was making excuses. --22.214.171.124 06:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's not simply Israel's opinion that commercial planes could be used for military purposes. The same assumption drove the Soviet Union to shoot down KAL 902 a few years later. Anynobody 01:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there any indication from the references given in Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114, that Israel had a suspicion that this aircraft had terrorists with parachutes? patsw 16:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it should be in the article that way, (which is why it was in my edit summary instead) the point is that Israel was facing the possibility of a converted 727 being used for military purposes. Assuming it would have to land in order to deliver terrorists is presumptuous considering the lack of sources on what Israel was thinking. Saying it could be delivering terrorists conveys the same intent without saying just what Israel thought was going to happen. At the end of paragraph 2 in the link, only specifies recon or hostile activity, which kinda leaves what that activity could have been pretty vague.
- (P.S. I've moved this from my talk page.) Anynobody 01:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I am amazed anyone tries to defend this but some people will defend absolutely anything Israel does, cradle to grave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is very biased in favor of the Israeli point of view nad gives too much credence to the Israeli explanation without offering the perspective of other parties. It needs to be rewritten to either include alternate viewpoints or none at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Where's the bias? A Libyan airliner was shot down over the Israeli occupied Sinai after going off course. Libya says the IAF jets gave no warning and simply shot down the 727. Israel says their aircraft fired after the airliner's pilot refused to follow instructions. The surviving Libyan co-pilot said that they refused to follow the IAF F-4s (he was there, so he's a pretty reliable source). The ICAO voted to censure Israel.
- Nowhere does the article justify what Israel said or did; It doesn't say there were terrorists on the plane and Israel did the right thing shooting flight 114 down; It says Israel said there might have been and the aviation world didn't buy it. Are you saying the article is biased because it doesn't condemn Israel? If the article did condemn Israel it would be just as biased as if it were condoned. Anynobody(?) 03:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This article sounds like it came from the MFA press office, it needs to either be edited to reflect a neutral point of view or express multiple points of views. It is factually accurate, but because of the admission of other points of view it is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Question about compensation
My own recollection of newspaper reports at the time, taken from the recordings of radio conversations between the aircraft and air traffic control in Cairo, is that the crew saw the Israeli fighters but assumed that they were Egyptian. PatGallacher (talk) 09:39, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Which was contradicted by the co-pilot, as stated in the article and referenced. This is why there is a no Original Research policy at Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Comparison in tone....
After just reading the terrible events that befell Korean Air Lines Flight 007 I came across this event. I must say the two articles could be more diametrically different. This article almost, and without any sense of shame, blames the pilots of the civilian airliner for being shot down. An unarmed plane is shot out of the sky by Israeli jets and it almost passes for acceptable based on the circumstances. Now compare that to the tone of the article concerning the shooting down of the non-military Korean Airliner by the Soviets (boo hiss) and it's quite obvious that this article is written by Jewish apologists. Quite frankly why this article has not been queried more is just another example how wrong Wikipedia as a reliable source truly is. The only people I can see who actually bother to do all this free work here must surely be those with the most pressing agendas!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This article references "a similar incident a month earlier, in which an Ethiopian plane was shot down", and then procedes to provide no citation for it. This list of airline shootdown incidents makes a similar uncited reference. This page of accidents and incidents of Ethiopian Airlines has no reference to any incident whatsoever in 1973 (January, or otherwise). In fact the only shootdown is from 10 Apr, 1969. That's far more than a month earlier. Is there some other mystery incident not referenced in these pages or is the original quote off by multiple years? --CumbiaDude (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I have gone ahead and removed the reference to this alleged shootdown. I have also removed it in the List of airliner shootdown incidents entry for that incident. No source has ever been provided and I cannot find any reference online to the alleged incident that does not apparently stem from the (incorrect) wikipedia entry. - Redshield3 (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Is it true that the co-pilot's own account is contradictory to the Libyan government stating that the attack occurred without warning? The attack was without warning, that is not to say that the crew were unaware of the Israeli jets. Also, how was ignoring the jets, and turning west, "erratic behavior" making it prudent to shoot down a civilian aircraft?Royalcourtier (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
- The Talk Pages are not about discussing the subject, but discussing Reliable Source material for the improvement of the articles. Since this is what the RS stated in the cite, that's how it is stated in the article. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
If I had the time....
- "At 13:54, Flight 114 entered airspace over the Sinai desert, cruising at 20,000 feet (6,100 m)."
Flight 114 was at FL290 (29,000ft) after its intermediate stop at Benghazi, and we don't know how high it was when entering Sinai airspace.
- "Two minutes later, two Israeli Air Force F-4 fighters were scrambled to investigate and they intercepted the airliner at 13:59."
Smart work -- three minutes after getting the scramble call the Phantoms had located and reached Flight 114.
- "The Israeli fighter pilots attempted to make visual contact with the passenger airliner's crew, and tried to communicate to them by signaling with their hands, dipping their wings and firing warning shots, that they should follow the F-4s back to Rephidim Air Base."
They didn't attempt to signal, they actually did effectively signal.
- "The 727 crew's response was interpreted as a denial of that request. The 727 turned back to the west, and the Israeli pilots interpreted this as an attempt to flee."
Hooey. The FL 114 pilot acknowledged the signals from the Phantom/s, lowered his undercariage and gave the impression he would land at Rephidim. He subsequently changed direction, accelerated towards Cairo, was shot at and unsuccessfully attempted a landing. And what about the following?
- "As the airliner cruised over northern Egypt, a large sandstorm below forced the crew to rely completely on instrument navigation."
What? Commercial aircraft used IFR for years before then, by choice and as a matter of course. There were many reasons for FL 114 straying 100 miles off course and miles past the intended destination, but a sandstorm below an aircraft at FL290 would be the least of them. So many beacons/nav aids on the ground were faulty/unserviceable that this .
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