Talk:Libyan Crisis (2011–present)

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Hillary Clinton's role in the disintegration of Libya's government[edit]

I wonder if there's enough basis in what wikipedians consider to be "reliable sources" to mention Hillary Clinton's role in the disintegration of Libya's government? According to an interesting op ed by Justin Raimondo, her role in the removal of Gadaffi and the subsequent breakdown in Libyan society parallels Bush II's role in the destruction of Iraq. An op-ed would of course not be suitable as a reliable source. But Raimondo does cite to sources, such as the Washington Times---but this may also be deemed a non-reliable source, i don't know. Senator Paul has called the intervention "Hillary's War" in an interview with the WSJ (2/7/2014), so perhaps her name could be drawn in on that basis (perhaps in a section called "International Reaction"). In any event, it seems bizarre not to see the words "Clinton" or even "United States" in an article about events manifestly caused or at least catalyzed by US government (state department) policy. Does the wikipedia have (or is it willing to provide) a precise list of publications that it deems reliable so that these can be searched through? Son of eugene (talk) 08:33, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The article now includes US President Obama admitting the "worst mistake" of his presidency, with a BBC reference. —Patrug (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

This article should be combined with Libyan Civil War (2014–present)[edit]

It makes sense to combine both pages (not least as this page has a lot of work to be done on it), and I feel it is just duplicating the same information.  The Emperor of Byzantium  (talk) 15:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

At this stage, Libyan Civil War (2014–present) is one of the four articles summarized here, so it's really not a duplication. If and when the Libyan conflicts reach a conclusion, we can reconsider how the information is organized across the various articles. —Patrug (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 25 May 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not done DrStrauss talk 20:17, 28 June 2017 (UTC)


Libyan Civil War (2011–present)Libyan Civil War – I would like commend IbrahimWeed on his recent move of this page from Libyan Crisis (2011–present) to Libyan Civil War (2011–present). I think it should've been done a long time ago because like the Somali Civil War, this is a single civil war with multiple phases (the 2011 phase, the 2011–14 phase and the 2014–present phase). However I think we should remove the date also. After all, Libyan Civil War redirects here and not to the disambiguation page. Charles Essie (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.Guanaco 07:26, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Oppose. It would be too confusing to rename just this page by itself, because we would still have pages named:
and these pages (along with over 100 redirect pages) are generally treating the 2011 and 2014–2017 phases as different wars. For example, this article now contradicts its own title by referring several times to the "first Libyan civil war", while the "Factional violence" article begins with the lead paragraph:
"Since the end of the 2011 Libyan Civil War, which overthrew Muammar Gaddafi, there has been violence involving various militias and the new state security forces. The violence has escalated into the current 2014 Libyan Civil War."
I oppose the proposed renaming, and strongly recommend reverting back to the previous title "Libyan Crisis (2011–present)", unless there's a coherent proposal for titling all the closely related articles and updating their content accordingly. IbrahimWeed's titles are neither precise enough nor consistent enough to satisfy the WP:Article title policy. He didn't bother to clean up the contradictions in this article resulting from his unilateral title change yesterday. Is he carefully going to clean up all the resulting contradictions in the five similar articles? Is there any evidence that WP:Reliable sources favor calling it a single war instead of two? The Libyan Crisis articles have collectively received dozens of contested Requested Move proposals, and it was inappropriate to move this one without a trace of supporting discussion or consensus or published sources. —Patrug (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
You make a good point about needing a coherent proposal. Here's what I would recommend:
  1. Expand this page to the size of other multi-phase war articles.
  2. Merge all content from Aftermath of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War into the other timeline pages.
  3. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War before military intervention to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (15 February–19 March 2011).
  4. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (19 March–May) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (19 March–May 2011).
  5. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (June–15 August) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (June–15 August 2011).
  6. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (16 August – 23 October) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (16 August–23 October 2011).
  7. Move Factional violence in Libya (2011–14) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (1 November 2011–16 May 2014).
  8. Move Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (2014–present) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (16 May 2014–present).
Charles Essie (talk) 15:27, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Revert back to "Libyan Crisis (2011–present)" per above, and it has been a stable title for years. George Ho (talk) 05:32, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
As for Libyan Civil War (2014–present), I would recommend that its content be split between this and other articles (such as List of armed groups in the Libyan Civil War and the timeline pages) and possibly some new pages (like Foreign involvement in the Libyan Civil War or Libyan peace process). Charles Essie (talk) 21:25, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
Looks fine to me. Libyan Revolution of 2011 is preferable to the other two which are too vague.  AjaxSmack  16:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose, Revert to "crisis. The proposal clashes with Libyan Civil War (2011). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support with Charles Essie's proposals above as well, and also per AjaxSmack above. "Libyan Civil War" is the common name for the whole shebang, from 2011 to present, and as such should be a broad concept / overarching article on that. Charles's peoposals for the other two "civil war" articles seem sensible too. Libyan Crisis (2011–present) is/was an awful title for this.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 28 December 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS No real consensus on changing the naming scheme; the moves are somewhat interrelated so no consensus for individual moves. This also means a return to status quo, meaning a return to Libyan Crisis (2011–present) for this page.(also based on the support in the above discussion for return to crisis)(non-admin closure) Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:26, 13 January 2018 (UTC)


Libyan Civil War (2011–present)Libyan Civil War – The proposal I made in the last move discussion seemed get some support, so I'm reviving it here.

  1. Move Libyan Civil War (2011) to Libyan Revolution of 2011
  2. Merge all content from Libyan Civil War (2014–present) into this page, Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (2014–present), List of armed groups in the Libyan Civil War and new articles focusing on foreign involvement in the war and the peace process.
  3. Merge all content from Aftermath of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War into the other timeline pages.
  4. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War before military intervention to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (15 February–19 March 2011).
  5. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (19 March–May) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (19 March–May 2011).
  6. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (June–15 August) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (June–15 August 2011).
  7. Move Timeline of the 2011 Libyan Civil War and military intervention (16 August – 23 October) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (16 August–23 October 2011).
  8. Move Factional violence in Libya (2011–14) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (1 November 2011–16 May 2014).
  9. Move Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (2014–present) to Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (16 May 2014–present).

What does everyone think? Charles Essie (talk) 18:52, 28 December 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:44, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

  • Support This is a broad concept article, with information about both Libyan Civil War (2011) and Libyan Civil War (2014–present). I'm going to nominate Libyan Civil War (disambiguation), the disambiguation page, for deletion. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 20:20, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    Procedurally closed. Let's keep the discussion here; we won't need an AfD to deal with the changes if there's consensus here. ansh666 02:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
    As the disambiguation page refers to a good number of articles, and it doesn't seem that will change no matter the result of the discussion here, I think it's not necessary to have it deleted. It's not bothering anything at the (disambiguation) title. Dekimasuよ! 19:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Question: I haven't been following this as much lately, so...is this widely regarded in scholarship/news/etc. as a single civil war? i.e. can it be reliably sourced, or is it OR/SYNTH? I seem to remember most news sources stating that the 2011 war (overthrow of Gaddhafi) and the 2014-present war (Haftar et al.) as being entirely separate wars. Even if there's an underlying umbrella conflict, has it been described as a single civil war as opposed to multiple civil wars? We have the current titles/setup for a reason, and we'll need solid sourcing if we want to change it. ansh666 02:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Good question. I would support if sources were provided, and I doubt there are any describing the period covered by the "Factional violence" article as part of a wider civil war. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Through a quick Google search, I managed to find two good sources: this (March 2016) and this (December 2014). So maybe we're past the WP:OR concerns for now. And while seemingly not a widespread view, this RM proposal is well placed and might help deal with any potential confusion in regards to the Libyan crisis topic. Titles for subtopic articles of the current civil war will indeed become quite an annoyance and excessively long by the time we're faced with a WP:SIZE issue with Timeline of the Libyan Civil War (2014–present). If we decided to split chronologically, we would have no other choice than creating subarticles with "Libyan Civil War (date)" in the title (and obviously we can't have Timeline of the 2014–present Libyan Civil War (14 May 2014–30 March 2016), for example). Also, per WP:PRECISE, I'd suggest we move the original civil war article to Libyan Revolution (disambiguation page) and omit the "of 2011" part, which I believe to be an unnecessary precision. A hatnote linking to Libyan Revolution (disambiguation) would suffice. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 22:55, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
  • It seems that a series of what will be "Timeline of the Libyan Civil War..." articles will be subtopics of an article called "Libyan Revolution (of 2011)". I am correct? Does it matter? —  AjaxSmack  22:40, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Only a few sources describe this entire period as one single "civil war" and I did my part in finding some of them. What you need to do is convince us why it's better than "crisis" (I prefer "civil war" myself, by the way). And what else can we do to Libyan Civil War (2014–present)? I say we keep it as it is, for now. Reducing it to a mere "timeline" article understates its significance relative to the 2011 events. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I think Libyan Civil War (2014-present) shouldn’t be included in any merger. It is not the same war as the civil war of 2011, and most sources consider them separate but related conflicts. The ongoing civil war is the latest in a series of conflicts in Libya that started with the civil war of 2011. First Gaddafi was overthrown, then divisions among the victors and other factors led to internal conflict, and then that conflict resulted in a full-blown second civil war. It’s similar to the situation in Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan, where one conflict quickly (in some cases almost immediately) led to another. As for some of the other articles, I think that the individual pages relating to each stage of the fighting (the 2011 conflict, the factional violence, and the ongoing civil war) should remain separate, but the other articles could be merged together. Anasaitis (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree regarding 2014-present as well. Since my question above about sourcing, there have been 2 sources that say that they're the same, but many many more, including I'd say most in the articles themselves, stating that they're different wars (though part of the same overarching conflict). ansh666 02:53, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Yeah. If the sources were more recent (i.e. reflected a changing trend in classification or whatever), I'd be amenable to lumping them together, but as it stands it's probably not the best way to go, as with the other examples. ansh666 09:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Neutral-ish. Weakly support move #0 to Libyan Civil War. Not sure about moves #2, #3, and #8. I'm not educated enough on the Libyan Civil War situation to know what the general opinion of how much of one single cohesive war it is, but I do support a move from Libyan Civil War (2011–present)Libyan Civil War from what I've seen. Seems like this is the primary topic of the phrase, and it's the main civil war people refer to. The version without the parenthetical disambiguator already redirects to the version with it, so getting rid of "2011-present" would be fine by me. ...However, I'm not very sure about moves #2, #3, and #8. Those seem a bit more iffy, and you might need to have a separate discussion about those few... I don't know enough to have too much of an opinion, but a few others above are not entirely 100% on those few other moves... Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree. Left’s forget about all those moves for now and only focus on this page. Charles Essie (talk) 18:32, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I do STRONGLY SUPPORT move #1 on Libyan Revolution of 2011, however. I'm neutral on moves #4-7, and don't know enough to weigh in on moves #8-9.Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay, to formalize my thinking: oppose all. There's been a lot of talk about all this but little in the way of sources backing up opinions - and a glance through the sourcing already present in the articles supports the current naming scheme. ansh666 18:40, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Why don't we simply move this article back to Libyan crisis (2011–present) (or better yet, "Libyan conflict") for now, wait a few months, and maybe then we'll have more sources at our disposal? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:34, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Reverting to the status quo would be ideal to me, yes. ansh666 02:39, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.