Talk:List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises

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Major League Soccer teams are not included in the list for multiple reasons as described in the article, chiefly that it is simply not commonly accepted as on the same level as the leagues for baseball, football, basketball and hockey in the USA or Canada: hence the term Big Four and not Big Five.

Of the criteria listed in Major North American professional sports leagues, MLS cannot meet dominance of its respective sport, ownership restrictions, or high salaries, and has a problematic stand on franchise stability as well (in 12 seasons, two folded franchises in Florida and three name changes not even counting KC Wiz(ards)). If you can build a factual case for MLS's equal standing to the NHL to counter these problems, without restricting your comparison to just popularity in MLS cities in the U.S. Sun Belt, then make it here and get consensus before you go unilaterally adding. Tolerating that sort of thing is what made this article's predecessor such a bloody mess, and it's time that stop. VT hawkeyetalk to me 21:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus they could be dead in 5 years.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 17:24, 15 May 2007.

MLS is included in the article Major North American professional sports teams. Wjmummert (KA-BOOOOM!!!!) 03:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

CFL only cities[edit]

I believe that CFL only cities should at least get a mention in the introduction, as many in Canada regard the CFL as a pro league and the only pure Canadian pro league left. I have left the derogatory sentence about CFL players being a notch below the NFL debite my belief that that is false (many former NFL players still in their prime try out of the CFL and don't make it or they play poorly, such as Ricky Williams), but pairing the CFL up with the NFLE development league is just flat out wrong, and so I removed it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 22:04, 8 June 2007.

Sorry, being "the only pure Canadian pro league left" doesn't put them on equal footing with the NFL. I'd say they're probably marginally better than NFLE in terms of quality of play, but that's pure POV assertion on my part, and to state that they're on an equal footing in terms of being one step away from the NFL is just fact, not derogatory: for 90% of the skill players, it's a stepping-stone league. (To use a smoked-out Ricky Williams to claim that an NFL player in his prime couldn't make a CFL team is just foolish.) Now, does NFLE have the status in its home territory that the CFL does (attendance, history, player continuity, media coverage, merchandise, general public recognition)? No way, and that's where the CFL does have a better claim. You can make a good career as a CFLer, but that just doesn't happen in NFLE. VT hawkeyetalk to me 01:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Mentioning the CFL team in Ottawa now will save an editors trouble when they have to write it in later IMO Kanga-Kucha

I believe that the CFL should be included in ranking because the CFL is popular in Canada as in the NFL, not NFLE, is only popular in the U.S.

Stated in the article before, it says that the CFL is strictly Canadian, so why is the NFL in there because it is strictly American.Gordomono 21:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Because the NFL is not definitionally American, and because it is the dominant league for gridiron football not just in North America, but the world. The CFL has some characteristics of a major league within Canada only, but fails in others. The NFL has all those characteristics, period. The only thing U.S.-limited about the NFL is the geographic distribution of teams. VT hawkeyetalk to me 21:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Just as the NFL is the dominant league for American Football, the CFL is the dominant league for Canadian football, not just in Noth America, but the world. They are different sports, played by different rules. (talk) 02:29, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

What about this?[edit]

Let me know. --necronudist 08:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the concept. I'd leave off the lacrosse leagues, though; players in the NLL and MLL aren't full-time athletes, as most if not all have other jobs in the off-season. I'd make a couple of minor style changes, too: provide some distinction between NFL and CFL teams (either italicize CFL teams or move them to a separate column), and use common broadcast scorebox abbreviations even if they're only unique within leagues rather than trying to create abbreviations that hint at the nicknames. (i.e. retain the CHC/CWS differentiation in baseball, but it's OK for the rest of Chicago's teams to be listed as CHI). Working on my variant at User:VT hawkeye/NN's team table with italicized CFL teams; thoughts? VT hawkeyetalk to me 21:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Good! For me it's ok! --necronudist 08:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, new table is subbed in. VT hawkeyetalk to me 21:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

MLS should be in the Big Five not the Big Four[edit]

The average attendance of the NHL is 16,961 while the MLS is 15,504. Thus, the attendance hardly varies by only about 2,000. Also there is a double franchise in the MLS at Los Angeles which shows great popularity in the Second City. This shows that it should be concidered to be involved in the ranking.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 20:02, 25 June 2007.

16,961 in indoor arenas averaging less than 20K capacity, multiplied by 41 home games, is rather more of a statement than 15,504 * 15 home games, with much lower ticket prices, in stadiums that hold anywhere from 25K to well over 50K. MLS might be bigger than the NHL in LA. That leaves the rest of North America to discuss. VT hawkeyetalk to me 00:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, in Toronto they almost sell out in every home game. Mentioned before, the pay for players is high especially for David Beckham which is well over $50 million each year for five years for a some of over $250 million.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 04:06, 26 June 2007.
Do you really want to argue that soccer is more popular than hockey in Toronto? Come on. Also, please sign your comments by typing ~~~~ at the end of each one, which will get autoexpanded into your name and date/time. This is common courtesy on Talk pages. VT hawkeyetalk to me 13:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, Toronto FC may sell out all their games, but the Leafs do as well- and have done so for decades. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
If I may add, outdoor sports, such as soccer always have larger attendance, since the stadiums are bigger. --Howard the Duck 09:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Wheres the AFL???[edit]

Come now, the AFL is much bigger than the NHL or the LX League. Look at the TV contracts, look at the ratings, look at the video games for Pity's sake!—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 10:59, 2 July 2007

Look at the attendance, look at the salaries, look at the revenues, look at the franchise stability, look at the standing at the top level of the sport. Because ESPN bought a share of the Arena Football League and has suddenly started promoting it as a major league sporting event does not make it so. VT hawkeyetalk to me 01:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow, imagine if we'd followed this IP user's advice back in 2007. Still think the defunct AFL is bigger than the NHL? Powers T 18:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Metropolitan areas[edit]

Teams are listed by base cities, not by city names, so Miami should be named as South Florida metropolitan area like in the original version 'cause actually Florida Panthers are based on Ft.Lauderdale. And there are plenty of similar cases (I've just corrected San Francisco who comprised Oakland and San Jose that are different cities of the same Area, the Bay Area), so I think the list should be revisited. --necronudist 14:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Should We Seperate Baltimore to Washington?[edit]

It has been brought up before. Both have different Markets, why are they being combined here? Are they the only places with different markets that is merged here? Any suggestions? (talk) 05:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Pop'n ranking[edit]

I've combined statistics from the top US metropolitan centres and the top Canadian metropolitan centres for the ranking, so there's not one specific Wiki page to reference those numbers (unless I've missed it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC) - that was me on a different comp. Themodelcitizen (talk)

It would be interesting to see the full population list (I noticed it was Las Vegas between Columbus and Milwakee) even though they have 0 teams in the Big 6. It might be easier to see expansion possibilities. Being a soccer fan I'd like to see the USL-1 markets only because some of them will move to the MLS (ie Seattle and talks about Vancouver and Montreal) Coppercanuck (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


It would be LOT less confusing because Media Market uses ONE definition while the METROPOLITAN RANKING uses different definitions (MSA, CSA, etc) and they are all mixed in one list. Plus, Media Market is what the Sports Franchises really follows in terms of Marketing etc. (talk) 06:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Population rankings are incorrect[edit]

For instance the rank for Baltimore/Washington, DC only takes into account the Washington metro, the entire area is actually fourth not eighth. Similarly the SF Bay ranking excludes San Jose's metro which would push it to sixth in rank. You need to use Table_of_United_States_Combined_Statistical_Areas when applicable and United_States_metropolitan_areas when the ranking represents a single metro area.Timpcrk87 (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I would propose using either the media market rankings or the primary census statistical areas (which includes CSAs, as well as MSAs not a part of CSAs). -- χγʒ͡ʒγʋᾳ (talk) 22:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


What about the Professional Woman's Basketball team cities? (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Done and done. Montville looks really weird at the bottom; when I have time I'll figure out it's pop'n rank relative to the other North American cities. Whether or not the WNBA could factor in as part of a "Big Seven" instead of a "Big Six" is up for debate.Themodelcitizen (talk)
    • Sorry, but I've gotta revert this. The NBA owns the WNBA and props it up financially; only Connecticut and Chicago operate independently of local NBA franchises. The attendances and revenues aren't anywhere close to those of the other six leagues under discussion. Frankly, there's a better case for pulling MLS than adding the WNBA. VT hawkeyetalk to me 02:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Surely the fact that the NBA props it up means that it should be included as a sort of add-on/italicized sidenote to the NBA stats? Themodelcitizen (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


The Seattle NBA team has been removed from the list (decided by the city and owners July 3, 2008) but Oklahoma City hasn't been added.

I've added it. Brady4mvp (Talk to me) 19:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

population of Canadian cities[edit]

metro cities in the US have a lot more area than they do in Canada. the greater horseshoe area around Toronto has around the same area as metro Chicago and has 8-9 million people. metro Denver is about 22 thousand squared km's in area metro Chicago is about 30 thousand squared km's in area metro Seattle is about 21 thousand squared km's in area metro Houston is about 26 thousand squared km's in area

cities in Canada metro Toronto is about 7 thousand squared km's in area metro Montreal is about 4 thousand squared km's in area metro Vancouver is about 3 thousand squared km's in area

in these metro areas Chicago has 9.5-9.8 million people Toronto has about 6 million people Vancouver has about 3 million people Montreal has 3.6-4 million people Seattle has over 4 million people

but Toronto has about 12 million people living within a couple hundred miles of the city. So it could cover a bigger area like Chicago and have the same number of people almost all of British Columbia's 4-5 million people living around Vancouver so Vancouver could make its area the size as Seattle and have the same population. Montreal could have the same population as Sydney, Australia if it had the same area size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

  • For Toronto at least, it would probably make more sense to use Statistics Canada Greater Golden Horseshoe definition rather than the CMA. Canadian CMAs generally aren't as extensive as American ones - such as the one that combines Washington and Baltimore. This would combine Hamilton and Toronto (and Oshawa, etc.) and had a 2006 population of 6.1 million. Nfitz (talk) 19:28, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


I am proposing to merge U.S. cities with teams from four major sports into this article since they cover essentially the same topic. Comments? - Mitico (talk) 19:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose This article is just a list, while the other contains a good deal of analysis and discussion, making it far more substansial than just a list. oknazevad (talk) 20:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Region columne in table[edit]

Options Canada, Western United States, Midwestern United States, Northeastern United States and Southern United States, as census definition.--Feroang (talk) 05:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

List countries by number of American and Canadian major professional sports franchises[edit]

table started by --Feroang (talk) 02:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Country Country2 Pop.
United States United States2 1 312,032,000 113
Arizona Cardinals

Baltimore Ravens
Buffalo Bills
Carolina Panthers
Chicago Bears
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Cleveland Rams
Dallas Cowboys
Denver Broncos
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts
Jacksonville Jaguars
Kansas City Chiefs
Miami Dolphins
Minnesota Vikings
New England Patriots
New Orleans Saints
New York Giants
New York Jets
Oakland Raiders
Philadelphia Eagles
Pittsburgh Steelers
San Diego Chargers
San Francisco 49ers
Seattle Seahawks
St. Louis Rams
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Tennessee Titans
Washington Redskins

Red Bulls
Canada Canada 2 34,557,000 9
? ? ? ?
Totals 122 148 32 30 30 30 18 8

B4 (& B6) column(s)[edit]

I think the count of teams is not that important. For example: Philadelphia has 4 teams, one in each league; while Los Angeles has 6 teams, but only in 3 leagues. I'd rank the cities by the league count, i.e. in how many leagues they have a team. Though only top 5 cities have that "problem". (talk) 09:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I had a very similar thought. Perhaps both could be included, though? At the risk of an ever-wider table... (talk) 04:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Mistakes in populations[edit]

The number of mistakes in the populations here are unexplainable. It makes no sense. For one, it states that they go by their MSA, but many of the cities in the table are using their da fuq? As if 40,000km of land in a CSA is comparable to 7000km in a Canadian CMA...TheCanadianGuy123 (talk) 12:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Populations in list[edit]

An anon IP (who just so happens to be editing from the government of Canada) keeps reverting so I'll start a discussion here. If we want to try to compare population figures across international boundaries, we need to do so in a consistent way, or else it's entirely meaningless. We might as well compare US State populations versus Canadian city populations.

There are two viable options to do this as far as I can see:

  1. Use metropolitan areas as measured by the national statistics organization (ie Core Based Statistical Areas (US) and Census Metropolitan Areas (CA))
  2. Use urban areas as measured by a third party (ie [1])

Option 1 is a reasonable approach, but it relies on the definitions of a metro area being the same in the two countries. For urban areas, on the other hand, we have a third party source which does the comparison for us, which is much preferable IMHO.

The main objection from the Government of Canada IP seems to be that Hamiltonians don't like being considered part of Toronto ("absolutely no one in Hamilton considers their team a "Toronto" or "GTA" team""), but of course what Hamiltonians or their elected representatives think really isn't relevant: what matters is what sources say. I'm sure people from San Jose and their elected officials prefer not to think of themselves as part of San Francisco, but this isn't a list of sports teams by self-identified region, so we shouldn't let civic pride get in the way of a sensible and verifiable comparison. Also, the revision that the IP reverted linked to Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area and not Greater Toronto Area. Other complains have been "Hamilton is not considered part of Toronto's "urban area"", however from Census metropolitan areas: "Statistics Canada has described the Greater Golden Horseshoe as the country's largest urban area."[1] The argument that "Hamilton is not part of the GTA or Toronto CMA. Hamilton is its own CMA." misses the point since the article is sorted by urban areas not CMAs. Urban areas can span more than one CMA. "Canada and US define demographics differently" - this is the entire point, which is why it's better to rely on third party data to do a legitimate comparison for us, rather than comparing demographics computed differently in an entirely meaningless way as the Government of Canada IP keeps attempting to do.

Do others prefer option 1 or 2? TDL (talk) 08:19, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ "2006 Census: Portrait of the Canadian Population in 2006: Subprovincial population dynamics". Statistics Canada. Retrieved 2014-07-11.  line feed character in |title= at position 5 (help)