Talk:List of Austrians
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- 1 The Veronicas
- 2 Hitler and Schwarzenegger, Politician or painter/actor
- 3 Older
- 4 "unknown" Austrians?
- 5 In the List?
- 6 Images in lists
- 7 Elisabeth, Marie Antoinette
- 8 Beethoven is not an Austrian
- 9 Liszt is not an Austrian either
- 10 Subjective vs Objective
- 11 Franz Kafka?
- 12 Albert Misak
- 13 File:Portrait Teddy Kollek portrait.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Hitler and Schwarzenegger, Politician or painter/actor
Hitler is politician and painter; and Schwarzenegger is a politician and actor. is there some rule is wiki about if someone or thing be in 2+ spots in same list?
- For Hitler it is obvious: he is in wikipedia only because of what he did as a politician, so he should not be listed as under painters. --Austrian (talk) 12:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
WOW - did you never get a complaint pairing off Hitler & Schwarzenegger into the same brackets ?;o)) Kind regards eliZZZa
Should we really have people on this list who are (so far) not even famous enough to have their own article? Or worse: not even their German article? For example, at the moment neither Barbara Albert nor de:Barbara Albert exists... -- Austrian 20:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- We shouldn't, I think. But both entries exist meanwhile, so the point is moot. --Austrian (talk) 12:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
In the List?
Images in lists
Putting many images in lists slows down page loading enormously.
Elisabeth, Marie Antoinette
Do Sissi and Marie Antoinette really belong in "Other notables"? Royalty and Nobility seem like better categories. --Trweiss 03:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
- You are certainly right. Gugganij 06:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Beethoven is not an Austrian
Hello, what`s the point about trying to make Beethoven an Austrian just because he went there in his twenties and composed most of his work in Vienna? Following that logic, eg neither R. Schneider nor F. Porsche would be Austrians. And by childishly stating, the list is "rather inclusive" Beethoven does not become Austrian neither. Hence, please do not allege anymore that Beethoven had been an Austrian - everybody who is interested in Beethoven may read on the Beethoven-Wikiside that he spent most of his live in Vienna. (ps: please klick on the German/Austrian version of this page and you will NOT find Beethoven there as nobody in Europe dares to allege such a nonsence) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
- The point of this list (as I see it) is not to categorize people, or to label them as Austrians or non-Austrians. (We have categories for that.) Rather (in my opinion) it should be a list of people who have close connections with Austria. This includes, for example, Hitler, who was born and educated in Austria, even though he was not an Austrian when he did most of the things he became encyclopedic for.
- It should also include Mozart, even though he was born in Salzburg, which became part of Austria only after Mozart died, because Mozart is closely connected with Austria and in particular Vienna.
- Beethoven's entry on this list, which you deleted, stated explicitly that he was born in Germany. It is obvious to the reader (or rather: it was made obvious in the introduction, which you deleted), that inclusion on this list does not "allege" that Beethoven was born in Austria, or had Austrian citizenship (a concept which did not exist at the time, I think).
- Please do not use offensive words like "childishly". If you have a reasonable definition of "Austrian", please suggest it here. It is quite obvious that there are many possible definitions, some wider, some narrower.
- The intended audience of this list are not people who want to learn about Beethoven -- they will read the Beethoven entry instead. Rather, the point of this list is to collect people with strong connections to Austria (in its various forms throughout history).
- Aleph4 14:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but what definition of an "Austrian" are you expecting me to assume except that someone has the Austrian citizenship or Austrian ancestors or was at least born on Austrian territory (maybe "Austrian h.c.")? This side is called "List of Austrians" and not "List of people connected with Austria". Moreover, the corresponding List in German language (ie the Wiki-network of the Austrian, Swiss and German people) does not allege Beethoven to be Austrian (under what definition ever). Furthermore, what do you mean by "should also include" Mozart? He is already listed what is questionable as he died before the 1st German Reich was suspended in 1806 but - however - one could at least say that Salzburg does belong to Austria nowadays. Neither your Hitler example does contradict my statement as he was born in Austria, had Austrian parents and was Austrian citizen until 1925. Finally, the aim of a "list of Austrians" should definitively not be to make the "intended audience" believe that Beethoven was Austrian (but it does unless you post unlogical explinations like "rather inclusive" or "close connections"). I would not mind to add Beethoven to the list in case you rename it accordingly to "List of people connected to Austria" but anything else is missleading and - hence - simply wrong! (ps: why did you change my heading "Beethoven is not an Austrian"? - this behaviour does appear to me quite offensive as well!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
- I thought that "Should Beethoven be on the list" is a better description of the discussion that we are having. But if that offends you, I'll change it back.
- My point is that there is no reasonable definition of who is Austrian? . Partly because the borders changed many times in history, partly because Austrians became Germans, Americans etc, and conversely, and partly because the concept of citizenship is rather new. However, I think that there is a reasonable definition of who should be on this list? , namely, people who spent a significant part of their life in Austria and were closely connected with that country (in any of its version throughout history).
- At least one of us seems to have a wrong idea of wikipedia. For me, de.wikipedia.org is not "the Wiki-network of the Austrian, Swiss and German people". It is the German language version of Wikipedia.
- (By the way, please sign your contributions by adding 4 tilde signs: ~~~~)
- Aleph4 09:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am tired of repeating my arguments again and again. Maybe you just do not want to understand what I wrote (for what reason ever). However Beethoven was born in Bonn and had German parents. If you want him to be on the list, please rename it accordingly to "List of Austrians and people connected to Austria" - anything else is unscientific and missleading. By the way, I quoted the German side to demonstrate that Austrians (as native German speakers) do not allege Beethoven to be Austrian (and who should know it better?). Last but not least, I do not know who of us has the wrong idea of Wikipedia, but it is unfortunately a fact that there exists not just one well written, objective and scientific Wiki-article straightly translated into all Wiki-languages. The respective versions do rather significantly differ from each other in terms of quantity and quality (as one could easily notice by e.g. comparing this side`s English with its German version).
Liszt is not an Austrian either
How do you justify including Franz Liszt in the List of Austrians??
- Contrary to your earlier statement he was born not in Raiding, Austria but in Doborján, Hungary--remember the borders were different back then? If you want to define people's nationality by the present-day borders of Europe, well, then we need to rewrite absolutely friggin' everything.
- He was ethnically German, not Austrian, with unclear bits of Slovak and/or Magyar blood.
- It is unfortunate that he did not speak Hungarian beyond a rudimentary level, but it is worth remembering that most Hungarians (the upper classes at least) barely spoke Hungarian for much of the 19th century.
- And finally, let us allow Mr. Liszt to speak for himself on this matter:
"I am Hungarian, and I do not know a greater happiness than to introduce to my beloved country the first fruits of my education and studies-as the first expression of my gratitude. What is missing yet of my maturity I intend to acquire with lasting diligence, and perhaps then I will have the good fortune to become a small branch of my country's glory." -Announcing F.Liszt's "homecoming" concert that took place on May 1, 1823 in Pest. (Franz Liszt the Virtuoso years - Alan Walker, p. 87)
"I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." -Liszt's letter to Baron Antal Augusz, dated May 7, 1873 (PBUS, p.160)
"Je suis Hongrois". --Franz Liszt, to many people upon many occasions.
Please, dear colleagues, have enough respect for good Mr. Liszt to not incorrectly claim him as Austrian, when he is so clearly Hungarian. K. Lástocska 18:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- Dear friend, this is a very controversial subject. I believe he can only correctly be labelled an Austrian-Hungarian which would allow to include him both in the Austrian as well as in the Hungarian list of famouns people. I will not reargue all the arguments that have been brought forward during the course of the years. For an essay on this controversial topic I refer you to the following: http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~coby/essays/liszt.htm. I would suggest to include him in the list again, but refrain from doing so until you have a chance to read the external source I have just posted. Best, Themanwithoutapast 21:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- It was certainly not controversial for Liszt himself! I have come across that article before (recently, in fact) and found it interesting but somehow less than convincing. (Sometimes I think that only a Hungarian can really understand what it means to be Hungarian!) :-) I also think it's a bit silly and ironic that there is such a big controversy over this man's nationality when he himself was so adamant and clear about it.
- As for the main points (language and ethnic origin) raised by the article you linked to:
- Language: as I have already mentioned, the Hungarian language was not widely spoken even in Hungary in Liszt's time. Before the Revolution of 1848 the official languages were German and Latin, and after that it still took a while for Magyar to really take hold permanently among the upper classes, educated and city-dwellers. Liszt can't be blamed for the second-class status of Hungarian during much of his lifetime--you might as well strip every German- and Latin-speaking Hungarian nobleman of his nationality.
- Ethnic origin: For almost as long as it has existed Hungary has been very ethnically mixed, and many, many people of other ethnic origins (Slovak, Serbian, Romanian, even German) have decided to become Hungarian--voluntary Magyarization was much more common than some would have you believe. For some very famous examples look at László Hunyadi (the whole Hunyadi family is quite interesting in that respect), as well as the families of Sándor Petőfi and even Lajos Kossuth.
- One more thing bears repeating again: it is not our place to decide for someone else what his nationality is. Liszt was, by his own assertion and loyalty, a Hungarian "to the end of his days". Who are we to say otherwise? What right do we have to strip Liszt of his claim to his beloved country? Answer me, please, what right do we have?
- Respectfully, K. Lástocska 22:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- It was not controversial for Mr Liszt? So, can you quote where he says "I am not an Austrian"?
- In his lifetime Hungary was part of the Austrian monarchy, so he can be both Austrian and Hungarian.
- It is you, Mr Kastocska, who insist that Mr Liszt was no Austrian - not anyone claiming that he was not Hungarian (which is, in the English language, broader than being a Magyar.) Str1977 (smile back) 17:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Subjective vs Objective
--126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC) I have removed the following paragraph since there is no other evidence of this person on the web and if decided to be included personal statements must not be included in articles:
"*Georg Emil Walter, biochemist, Vienna. Was born on December 13, 1899. Although his patent was stolen from him by the nazis (I refuse to capitalize nazi) he is the true inventor of a common building insulation. He ran to New York from Vienna when the nazis invaded Austria. He died in the late 1900's."
I agree I also don't like the Nazis but apart from the fact that this insert does not comply with the formatting of the rest of the list (name, occupation, pob), this is a personal statement and regardless whether you like something or not if written in an encyclopedia everyone MUST obey spelling.
Why is the Czech writer Franz Kafka on this list of Austrians? Is this an Austrian equivalent of British people claiming Irish writers as British on the basis that Ireland was under British colonial rule when the writers in question were born? I hope not. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 09:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- It is not at all equivalent. It is difficult to distinguish Irish from English (or American) writers by their language alone, as it is difficult to distinguish German from Austrian writers. But the difference between Czech and Austrian writers is obvious from the language. Jaroslav Hasek was born in Prague (Austro-Hungarian empire) and wrote in Czech, so he was a Czech writer. Kafka was born in Prague and wrote in German, so he was an Austrian writer. --Austrian (talk) 12:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Austrian writers are mostly Germans. Kafka was born in Prague and not in Austria and he speaks and wrote in German, so he was an German writer! And Mozart? Why is Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart on this list? He was not an Austrian man, he only was a German.--2A02:908:FD39:A200:3162:4440:32A3:F707 (talk) 17:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I removed this red-linked entry:
File:Portrait Teddy Kollek portrait.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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