Talk:List of Christian hip hop artists

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Inclusion criteria[edit]

Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Christian_performers_of_hip_hop_and_rap the inclusion criterion for this list is simply performers of Christian hip hop and rap. The list should not include performers who are Christian but do not perform the Christian sub-genre. Meters (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

How do you identify performers in this genre? Self-identification is not going to work because several prominent performers of the genre do not want to be identified with the genre at all. Please provide a comprehensive criteria for possible inclusion in the list. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't add performers to this article. The inclusion criterion has been set as artists who perform in the Christian hip hop genre. Since there is such a genre, there must be music of that genre, hence there must be artists who meet the criterion. What does it matter if they self identify or not? It was clear when the AFD was closed that Christian performers of hip hop was not a valid criterion for this article. Meters (talk) 05:43, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. Please
  1. Stop linking directly to the article.
  2. Give a criteria of which artists should be considered as performing in the genre.
While there is a genre, and you don't understand it or what constitutes inclusion in the genre. To some, such as Powell's 200 criteria, it is people who self-process as Christian and perform music of a specific genre. To others, such as G. Craige Lewis, Christian hip hop is an oxymoron as they are polar opposites. Performers of the "genre" don't want to be associated with it and their adherents will come here to remove them from the list. So either offer the requested criteria or explain why you can't. If you can't, then take this article off your watchlist because it's going back to where it came from. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
This is defined as a list of artists who perform Christian hip hop, so that is inclusion criteria. If we have reliable independent sources that describe somebody as a performer of Christian hip hop, than he should be included. It's very simple. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Two issues with your statement:
  1. So only individual males should be included? I'm just being clear.
  2. Your circular argument does not solve the problem.
    1. Powell, and others, would argue that self-proclaimed Christians who perform hip hop are performers of Christian hip hop. Reviews of their music will appear in Christian publications and some might even allow their names to stand for industry awards, however their music is not on a "Christian" label and may lack distribution to Christian music stores.
    2. Lewis and others say that there is not such thing as Christian hip hop and so there are no legitimate performers of Christian hip hop.
    3. And there are still others who don't want to be on this list.
How do we determine who is considered a performer of Christian hip hop? If you don't want to address the actual issue with a clear definition, you're not helping. And don't give me nonsense that it's references, because I referenced subjects who were Christian and clearly performers of hip hop who were just removed and caused the article to be moved, twice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As with many, many other genres, there often are people or groups of people who will contend that certain artists do or do not fall under a certain genre label, and there often are disagreements as to what the definition of a certain genre actually is (heavy metal is one such contentious genre that I work with and encounter a lot). As Walter illustrates above, there is some disagreement, or inconsistency, as to how Christian hip hop is actually defined. Thus, we go by reliable sources. If a reliable source associates an artist with the Christian hip hop genre, then they should be included here. As per convention on the Christian rock and Christian metal lists, it is even reasonable to list an artist who is defined as performing Christian music, and also performing hip hop. What is original synthesis is extrapolating to say that an artist who personally professes Christianity, or, if a group, whose members profess Christianity, and perform hip hop, but are not confirmed by reliable sources as performing within Christian music. That is why Lil Wayne or Boi-1da would be excluded from this list, but dc Talk, Lecrae, and Street Symphony are included - the former two, while professing Christians as confirmed by reliable independent sources, have not been associated with Christian music, while the latter three all have. Why should we defer to Powell's (or Doug Van Pelt's) definition as opposed to Lewis's? It all comes down to this: Does a source, regardless of the artist's (or artists') personal beliefs, identify said artist with Christian music and hip hop? If so, include the artist; otherwise, exclude.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. An artist who performs what a reliable source identifies as Christian hip hop is eligible for inclusion, and only such performers are eligible for inclusion. I think any attempt to move this article back to including any Christian artist who perform hip hop would be against consensus. Meters (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Seconded. I would say gospel music is tantamount to Christian music, for Half Mile Home are defined as R&B, hip hop, gospel group, by AllMusic.The Cross Bearer (talk) 05:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks 3family6. That's what I was aiming for, but what if there is contention and a Lecrae fan removes with their usual comment? Revert and indicate it's supported by a RS? Sure.and if we get someone adding Yo Majesty! or Lil Wayne in with an inconclusive ref, same. I won't have much time to add sources over the next few weeks, but possibly in the new year. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
How is this different from any other article or list? No one person owns the article or is responsible for it. Changes are made by anyone who wishes to, and the changes may be reviewed by anyone who chooses to patrol that particular article. Any entry of an artist whose article does not have a reliable source showing that they perform Christian hip hop should be removed, or possibly flagged for citation if it seems likely that they do perform Christian hip hop and it has not been mentioned in their article (I'd rather see the mention and citation added to their article). Meters (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you are absolutely correct citations should be given to prove they are in fact CHH artists, where in an ideal world they would be utilized on their artist or BLP page.The Cross Bearer (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
It's my understanding that The Cross Bearer is responding to me and I agree. As for Meters, there have been a few editors who have been attempting to request that RSes be added to list entries, not simply rely on sources to be present in linked article. That fails, W:PV. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:04, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
User:Walter Görlitz perhaps you should ask User:The Cross Bearer who he or she's agreeing with if you have any doubt. It seems to me from the indentation and content that the response is in agreement to my comment that anything included in this list needs to be referenced to a reliable source showing the Christian Hip Hip genre.
I don't care whether such references are in the BLP only or also in this list. By a strict interpretation of WP:STANDALONE#Citing_sources and WP:MINREF one could argue that the references need to be in the list as well as the BLP (or at least that one could force this by challenging all entries without refs), but some lists accept the sourcing only in the linked article. If I'm adding something to an existing list I follow whatever precedent has been set for that list.
I have no idea what you mean by "That fails, W:PV" That's a DAB page and none of the entries have anything to do with Wikipedia policy on lists or references. Meters (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
And a merry Christmas to you. Try WP:V. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

We've lost the edit notice[edit]

In all of the moves, the edit notice seems to have been misplaced. Anyone know how to get it back or should we create a new one? Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:22, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

The edit notice disappeared a long while back, apparently, as I can't find it. I'd create a new one.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

What about artists who are no longer CHH?[edit]

Asaiah Ziv has been released from his contract from the Christian label Infiltrate, as he no longer claims Christianity. He most likely will no longer be associated with CHH. So, do we keep him on the list? I would say yes, since he was CHH before.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@3family6: I would say you are absolutely correct, the rappers can't be eliminated from their participation in the Christian hip hop movement, such as Jahaziel.The Cross Bearer (talk) 04:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
I also agree. It might be worth adding a note to such cases though. Meters (talk) 05:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)