Talk:List of East European Jews

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Ionesco[edit]

Eugene Ionesco, playwright (half Jewish)

I know Ionesco was half Romanian and half French (mother: Thérèse Icard), but I couldn't find any reference about being half Jew. Bogdan | Talk 14:30, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

According to http://www.jewhoo.com (who tend to check their facts), Ionesco's mother was French-Jewish, and Ionesco spoke Yiddish (see also http://www.forward.com/issues/2001/01.04.06/arts1.html ). I'll post other sources if I find them, plus you can always email jewhoo. Udzu 21:59, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Judaica, art. "Ionesco, Eugene": "he wrote about his family history for the first time in the second volume of his memoirs, Present Passe, Passe Present (1968), a sequel to Le Journal en Miettes (1957, Fragments of a Journal, 1968), expressing a new awareness of his Jewish origin."--Newport 21:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Weinberger[edit]

Jaromir Weinberger was a Catholic of German descent.(65.10.60.42)

Danke, Děkuje vám! --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 06:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandaling?? - unconfirmed people[edit]

  • Why 65.10..... removes clearly Jewish people? for examle, Ancerl is obviously Jewish descent (possibly, beause they wasn't Judaist(believer of Judaism)?)
--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 05:47, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

In the list?[edit]

please answer me and add the list

--Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 05:37, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Jerzy Neyman[edit]

  • Jerzy Neyman was born to Catholic Jewish(Polonised) family on Bessarabia.

See Talk:List of Polish Jews page.! /(" ") --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 06:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

    • Jerzy Neyman is not Jewish on either side. His Jewish last name is from several generations back. (anon)

Double postings on Belarusian page[edit]

Just because someone is born in a territory that is today Belarusia does not make them Belarusian. These names are ALREADY listed on other lists; repeating them is utterly pointless.

From LazarKr to Antidote[edit]

  • 1. Yuri Manin - mathematician, You've deleted this person from List of Ukrainian Jews under grounds, that his Jewishness is doubtful. I present here one such evidence from Jinfo.Org:
    • It implies right on jinfo that his Jewish ancestry is still disputable -- given that they had to do extensive research...but if the average person doesn't know he's a jew there's no point of going so deep into it. I will allow you to put him though since it's likely he has one jewish parent.

If you have some opposite evidences , I would learn them. But, please, don't remove persons if you are not sure, that it's justified decision.

  • 2. You have removed several additional persons, that their removal deserves some discussion.
  • 2.1 Elia Metchnikoff, Nobel Prize winner. He's born in Kharkov - today this is Ukrainian town.
    • It doesn't matter what it is today. Accordingly he's an ethnic Russian born in Ukraine.
  • 2.2 Stanislaw Ulam, co-developer of hydrogen bomb. Born in Lvov (today Ukraine).
    • It doesn't matter what it is today. He's an ethnic Pole.
  • 2.3 George Charpak, Nobel Prize winner. Born in Dubrovytsia (today Ukraine).
    • It doesn't matter what it is today. He's an ethnic Pole.
  • 2.4 Isaac Asimov, writer. He is born in Russia. I was wrong to include him in List of Belarusian Jews.
  • 2.5 Paul Baran, co-inventor of Internet. Born in Grodno (today Belarus).
    • It doesn't matter what it is today. He's an ethnic Pole.
  • It's true that all these towns were in Past in Poland. Here is one disputable point that is common to hundreads of persons in Wikipedia. I am aware that by now there is not agreement between users of Wikipedia in what country should be defined some particular person: country of birth town at Present or Country of birth town In Past. I personally prefer to include such persons in country of birth town at Present for reaons that I don't want to eleborate now.
  • But I can accept any solution as far it will be consistent one.
  • In present situation in order to avoid endless disputes, it will be preferable to allow to users to define such persons in both countries, desirably with indication of birth town.
  • 3. I want to make several remarks about multiple posting of persons in Lists.
  • Wikipedia is a Data Base. When people are talking about Data Base they are speaking about Information Retrieval Keys. Wikipedia Lists are Information Retrieval Keys as well. Users of Data Bases simply are not interested to discuss whether some particular Information Retrieval Key increase multiple posting. If they believe that some particular Key will be Useful, they will ask The Data Base Developer to define such Key. I've discussed this matter of multiple posting in Discussion page of List of British Jews.
  • 4. So, why Wultipedia Users should object to Multiple posting ?
  • Let us take an example of Albert Einstein. He was born in Germany and lived at least in two countries Swiss and the United States. So, he is defined at least in six Lists by Country: Lists of German, Swiss and American people and three Lists of Jews. Is ir practicale to reduce multipile posting of Albert Einstein in various Lists ? Why multiplate posting of Albert Einstein should be a problem ?
    • The lists of jews are already far overeaching as it is ---- much of list of British Jews are just repeats from other country lists. We honestly don't need it any more repetitive.
  • 84.228.234.112 09:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • LazarKr 09:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposal[edit]

If this were ever accomplished, it would be I M M E N S E. What I propose is that you have lists for each country, and link them to this one. Dahn 01:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Eastern/Central[edit]

I have expressed my view on the nature of this list. However, I couldn't help but be perplexed at the initiative Alensha took in removing Hungary. Let's look at it: the Czech Republic is still on the list, right? Alensha, you might wanna take a look at a map, and notice that all of the Czech Rep. is west of Hungary. But I might be wrong. See, the problem here is that people still think "Eastern Europe" is a pejorative. What is especially sad about such initiatives is that they do not object to all other countries being in the "cloaca of Europe". They just want theirs to be "better". Dahn 14:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dahn, you might want to take a look at the map too (Image:Physical Map of Europe.jpg) and notice that Hungary is definitely Central Europe. I do not think Eastern Europe is a pejorative term, I think it is a geographical term, and if we are to divide Europe into a Western and an Eastern part, Hungary would be in the Western one. (We can also get into the history and cultural ties that bring Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Rep., Poland, etc. closer to Western Europe than to East, though I know more about Hungary than about the latter three.)
I was thinking about what to do with the Czech Rep., but it would be harder to remove it since they already have a long list here. The only possible solution would be to remove that into a separate article, but I don't know what do the Czech Wikipedians think on this subject.
Also, please have a look at the discussion page of List of Hungarian Jews, an article that is proposed to be merged with this one. The question was already raised there. Instead of these meaningless lists it would be far more informative to have an article about Jews in Hungary, which would link together everything in the topic – List of Hungarian Jews, History of the Jews in Hungary, culture, synagogues etc.
Alensha 15:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the continental-zonal distinction should not exist altogether. They carry a "value" aspect no matter where they stand in geography. In fact, if you were to look at the map, and just the map, you'd notice that, since Europe ends at the Urals, most of the Western shore of the Black Sea (including Ukraine) should be Central Europe. The distinction has no meaning. If you'd look at my first message on this page, you'll see that I had the exact same proposal as you regarding country lists and articles rather than regional. Dahn 16:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

If we look just at the map, with the exclusion of Russia (and possibly Ukraine) lots of countries were Central European, including Belarus and Romania. Your first proposal was good, I think, but the lists for countries should be linked from not here but from a "Jews in Europe" article, without having a separate article for Eastern and Western Europe. Alensha 16:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I was going to propose that initially, but I thought I'd have to fight them to give up reference to these stupid zones (especially since everyone will igore the problems raised, be they geographical or prejudice-inspired). Dahn 17:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you think anyone would object if we now began to separate these articles (List of East European Jews, List of West European Jews) into smaller articles by country? Alensha 17:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No, not really. Let's start, then. Although, I trhink the "Western European" one does not in fact exist.Dahn 17:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It does exist. I'll merge the info in List of East European Jews, List of West European Jews and all the other European Jews articles into one Lists of European Jews which will include not the lists themselves, only links to the countries' lists. Right now I'm too sleepy for this :) (Will do something about the template too.) – Alensha 00:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Please,

  • see Hungary: is a landlocked country in Central Europe
  • see Slovakia:is a landlocked republic in Central Europe
  • see Czech Republic: is a landlocked country in Central Europe --Mt7 16:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Hungary is Central Europe. In hungarian geography schoolbooks, it is said Hungary is in eastern Central Europe (Kelet-Közép-Európa, i.e. "esat of central europe"). Gubbubu 14:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Moldova[edit]

History of this list since its integration into this article:

  • 23:11, 19 February 2006 Antidote
  • 23:58, 23 January 2006 Alensha
  • 23:05, 23 January 2006 Antidote (pointless separation)
  • 18:04, 23 January 2006 Dahn m
  • 18:02, 23 January 2006 Dahn m
  • 18:01, 23 January 2006 Dahn

For the complete history see History of List of Moldovan Jews

Article separation[edit]

Dahn and I listed our reasons above why the articles should be separated. Dahn separated them, Antidote reverted, I separated them again, not noticing that it has already been done once. I think this should be discussed.

IMO the separated articles will be much more useful when there will be separate articles about Jewish history and culture in these countries, and it will be easier to categorize them. Lots of things are categorized by countries, e.g. we have a List of Scots and a List of English people instead of them being together in one "Lists of UK people" article (and those are not even separate countries).

It seems Wikipedia supports the view that these countries are Central Europe, not Eastern. Image:European Regions 16.png. Antidote argues that "the East designation is most likely on Soviet lines". The Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, I don't think it should influence us. Moreover, the lightblue countries of this map have been much more closely tied with Western Europe than with the East for more than 1000 years (and then were connected even more closely with each other, which supports why we should have a name – Central Europe – for the region that consists of them.) The Soviet Union dominated this territory only for 40-something years, which is actually nothing compared to 1000 years of history. The one example that comes to my mind right now is religion – the Central European states have been Catholic for most of their history, while the East European countries are predominantly Orthodox. If we think about cultures, not about 20th century politics, I think, using the term "Central Europe" for these countries is justified. But since it is pointless to have lists of "East Europeans", "Central Europeans", "South Europeans", "Northwest-southern-central-middle-Europeans" etc. (like we have now...) the best solution would be to have a list for each country and have a "List of European Jews" that links them together.

Alensha 14:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)