Talk:List of Haitians
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Should Dumas be on this list?
Alexandre Dumas, père's grandmother was from Saint-Domingue (before the area was called Haiti). Does that make him a person who should be on this list? What about his son, who was one-eighth "Saint Domingan"? Dumas never actually visited the Americas. How much of a link to Haiti should a person have to be on this list? --Ccady 07:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how much of a link a person should have to Haiti. My advice would be to look at other countries' lists to get an idea of that. I did notice however that many people on this list such asPierre Thomas (American football), and Elvis Dumervil are Haitian American, and not born there. My question is should that really count on a list of Haitians? There is already a list of Haitian Americans. My opinion is that they should not be on this list so I'm taking them off. By the way, I'm new to all this, so if I violate any rules of etiquette or otherwise please let me know. Kgromann (talk) 02:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- No. This is crazy. You have to be born in Haiti to be on the list, or immigrated and lived there.Student7 (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
For this type of list, a person must not only be notable (have an article), they must be known outside of Haiti. That is, a person cannot win a national athletic title, go on to the Olympics and win nothing and be here. They must have achieved something internationally, as well. Student7 (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Who made you Noah Webster when defining the word "notability"? There are many notable people not known outside of Haiti and vice-versa. The beauty pageant contestants were born in Haiti, and hence are Haitian. Haiti does not permit dual citizenship, and therefore they are Haitian unless the naturalize in another country. Stop removing these entries due to your mis-contrued definition of notability. Also DO NOT WRITE ON MY PAGE! Discuss on this page ONLY! --XLR8TION (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please read article's first sentence This is a list of Haitians, notable people from Haiti. The list includes people recognized internationally for artistic, cultural, economic, historical, criminal, and political reasons, among others. The subjects are from Haiti and have been recognized international for their artistic contributions. Landing second place in a major beauty pageant known the world round is NOTABLE!--XLR8TION (talk) 18:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is that supposed to be an insult, because if it is you better apologise. so what if my messages look unclear, I might not even speak english as a 1st language and as such have difficulties, its very rude to insult how I write!--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 18:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
So from what I can tell, both people you added won the Miss Haiti Universe pageant and then went on to compete in an international Miss Universe pageant (which they did not win). Is that correct? ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- XLR8TION has used the word "internationally" above. This, of course, is the key to having a maintainable and meaningful list. The person must be known outside the country. Filling the list with 70 Miss Haiti Universe, 70 Haiti Miss Worlds, dozens of Presidents, justices (not just Supreme Court!), and every musical group and athlete, renders the list moot and unmaintainable. We need people the level of a Jean Lafitte, Christophe, and Toussaint Louverture, who most people outside Haiti have heard of. As for any article, we want to use material that will interest readers, and demonstrate the "best" of (in this case) Haiti. And avoid WP:NOTLINK, WP:NOTDIR, WP:NOTWHOSWHO. Student7 (talk) 12:30, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed that they should not be included for being Miss Haiti Universe winners. The question is: should they be included for being contestants (but not winners) in the international Miss Universe pageant? ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Question at least one re-inclusion
Thanks for your work on reordering this list. Would like to question the re-addition of Michel Clérié. He may (have been) notable inside Haiti, but never heard of him, nor do I see how his job would allow him fame on the international stage. As with the others, I'm not questioning his notability, just his inclusion here. Student7 (talk) 14:42, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome, glad it is appreciated. Yes, you were correct about Michel Clérié not being on the international stage; thank you for pointing that out to me. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:48, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
A major contributor has rm the templates requesting that the notable be tied to Haiti directly. All articles in Wikipedia are, of course, stand-alone. That is, links may help the reader (and document the notability here), but can't help the editor in any way. We cannot use another Wikipedia article to justify another Wikipedia article. This is standard stuff. Citations which are germane to the notable having been born in Haiti, or lived there, must be found and copied here. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Also, being mayor of Plano, Texas or a US Congressperson or a Haitian minister of something, doesn't really qualify their presence here. Needs to be generally known outside of Haiti. Famous, not just an article (bio) on them in Wikipedia. Student7 (talk) 22:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Secondly, this seems like "desperation" list. "We might not be rich, but we have notable people." This too, is insufficient and sounds pathetic. There are some honestly notable people from Haiti and readers should be exposed to them. But most of them in article are just "people with articles," unknown outside of Haiti. Not really interesting to general reader, who will become dismayed after reading a few and skip rest of article. People should be known outside of Haiti. The remainer can be entered in Provincial or town article. Mayors anywhere except maybe New York City, are not notable outside of their city, and sometimes are excluded from that article. NYC has had, maybe a hundred mayors. You never heard of most of them!. Student7 (talk) 19:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Student7, it seems to me that you may have a personal agenda at stake here. Throughout all the articles on the list of natives, not one page is as critical as you are being with this article and the only list that comes with a list of rules (made by whom?) such as this excessive jargon of a definition:
This is a list of Haitians, born in Haiti or possessing Haitian citizenship, notable outside of Haiti or their immediate locale. For example, "Mayor of Dumont, Texas" wouldn't count. It's outside of Haiti, but no one can recognize any mayor of Dumont, unless you happen to live there! Due to Haitian nationality laws, dual citizenship is now permitted by the Constitution of Haiti, therefore people of Haitian ancestry born outside of the country are not included in this list, unless they have renounced their foreign citizenship or have resided extensively in Haiti and made significant contributions to Haitian government or society. The list includes both native born and naturalized Haitians, as well as permanent foreign residents who have been recognized internationally for artistic, cultural, economic, historical, criminal, and political reasons, among others. If not indicated here, their birth in Haiti and notability are mentioned in their main article. This list does not include fictional characters or Haitian associations and organizations.
For your information, any person born to at least one Haitian parent is Haitian according to the Haitian constitution (not that I am applying them here). Next, so you haven't heard of some of these people, perhaps your knowledge does not extend as far, but the sources to these people (most of them) were all in the English language. So, how wouldn't that make them notably outside of their country? I also agree with most of the points made by the creator of this article, XLR8TION.
Your points that I disagree on:
(1) "For this type of list, a person must not only be notable (have an article), they must be known outside of Haiti. That is, a person cannot win a national athletic title, go on to the Olympics and win nothing and be here. They must have achieved something internationally, as well."
Response: Says who? You? To be an Olympian for a country, you have to go through a series of trials and qualifications, set by the IOC Executive Board. The Olympics is an international event whether you win something or lose. The fact that this event is televised, written, and talked about, enhances the credibility and notability for that specific person native to his/her own country as well as abroad.
(2) Pertaining to Alexandre Dumas you said "No. This is crazy. You have to be born in Haiti to be on the list, or immigrated and lived there."
Response: According the Haitian constitution, you would be wrong. This follows the one parent inclusion deriving from the jus sanguinis rule in a more purer sense. (1/4, 1/8 Haitian as not being as pure.)
Your points that I agree on:
I can "potentially" see why certain politicians would not be included. (But I am following these "arbitrary guidelines" on that).
Others editors, that I disagree with:
"Reason for limits of adds due to non-winners of contests", Brian3030 said "would only clutter this list."
Response: Have you looked at the "List of Americans" article? This is an irrelevant argument. The fact that this article extends the words "This is an incomplete list that may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by expanding it with entries that are reliably sourced" means that infinity still could not satisfy this list. The point is to expand articles, not to contract.
Student7, you are being far too critical of this article, especially when expansion is needed throughout all Haiti articles as a lot of those start and stub articles need extensive work.
Before I indulge deeper into the subject of notability, kindly explain why that definition above should remain as I am challenging its validity. Please follow up with Wikipedia guidelines, and not the Haitian constitution, as I do not believe both can be inclusive. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to improve all the Haitian articles. With all those changes does come differences with other editors.
- Olympics. Think USA for a minute. Would you suggest that every person who is sent to the Olympics be notable? We're talking thousands here every four years. Most of whom neither you nor I have ever heard of. Or will ever hear of again. Outside of one report from the person's hometown, would I ever be able come up with a site to demonstrate that the person was known outside of the United States, a key to understanding this list. Now maybe the Olympian could go onto a state article (small state. NY editors would definitely baulk!) And probably county. (Again, Nassau County editors might object). Same with "Miss USA." There is one per year. Can you name the winner for 1953 off the top of your head? Me neither! If they went on to win "Miss World" or "Miss Universe" that would clearly make them notable outside the US. Otherwise they would be notable in state article for being "Miss USA" (and no more).
- Dumas. It is true (for example) that citizenship for Ireland (and Canada, and other places, I suppose) can be "inherited." Nothing to do with living there, per se. It might be mentioned in the person's bio if they knew about it and appeared to care. Sounds pretty much WP:TRIVIA to me. Notable list are way too long for most places.
- Try this from another perspective. It's easy to come up with a lengthy list. It is not that easy to get someone to actually read it. Which is why editors often try to trim "see also" and "external references" lists. Today, I tried to work on the See also for Assam which has grown to a boring length. Hardly anyone (except another watching editor like me) is ever going to get through this thing! The average person only spends a minute on any Wikipedia article anyway! And that is text. Lists? I don't know... Student7 (talk) 19:36, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
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