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Archive 1

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Reference review

Per our previous discussion, I am carrying out a reference review that confirms each individual listed in the page has a reference confirming that the subject has publicly stated that they identify as LGBT (as appropriate to the individual). As at this writing, the references for the following individuals do not appear to be correct/sufficient; where applicable, an alternative reference is suggested. A reference that also states the person lives/works in NYC is ideal.

(Imported from my user talk page) - Hi Risker- first of all, I would like to thank editors Figurefour44 and Chrish65 for their valiant efforts and edits to this and the parent LGBT culture in New York City articles. Because the far greater time urgency here is the LGBTQ status, that is what I've concentrated on in quoting sources. Most of them probably also do mention the NYC connection- but it can be challenging to find the required refs and not every ref may contain both the LGBTQ and the New York connection. I'm sure ultimately we can find a ref that also contains the NYC connection for all of them, but this aspect is not nearly as personal (or urgent) as the LGBQT status. Will look at and incorporate your suggestions after we beat our self-imposed time deadline here. Thanks all, again! Castncoot (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Academia and research

  • All seem okay.

Broadway and stage

  • Richard Greenberg - ensure link indicates that membership is required to read the full article (I cannot verify that it includes a self-identification. Note that the Wikipedia article about this individual does not include any verification, either. This reference confirms NYC residence.
 Done (We may have to accept some degree of synthesis for now.) Castncoot (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Brian Hutchison - borderline, although probably okay. Shame the Variety review, mentioned in the WP article for the subject, is no longer available, as it would have been more helpful. Doesn't really say this person lives in NYC.
 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
  • (Reviewed as far as Robin de Jesús - will continue tomorrow)

Risker (talk) 06:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Continuing:

 Done Castncoot (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done Castncoot (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

  • rest seem okay.

Drag

Entrepreneurship and technology

  • All okay.

Fashion

  • Calvin Klein - New York Daily News is a borderline source for BLPs at the best of times, and the link goes to a negative story about a non-notable person; it is not a suitable reference. This is a much better source, it is a quote of Klein himself. (Please also port it over to the article on Klein, it can be used to reference the existing sentence.)
 Done Castncoot (talk) 07:54, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Derek Lam - again NY Daily News, so borderline for BLP, and in this case it's advertorial. Try this instead, including a note that subscription is required; however, confirms relationship with his husband in the sub-headline.
 Done Castncoot (talk) 07:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Brandon Sun - no Wikipedia article; until there is an article that demonstrates his notability, he should be removed from the list.
 Done Castncoot (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Film and television

  • Austin Armacost - The Sun is a gossip rag and is unsuitable for BLP referencing. Unfortunately, none of the other references in the WP article are much better (which raises the question of whether or not someone known almost entirely for being on reality shows is actually notable), and I could not find better sources on a quick search. Suggest removing him from the list for now until a really solid, non-tabloid source is found.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Wolfgang Busch - unreferenced. Please remove from the list until a solid reference source can be added. I note there is no statement in the WP article that states he is gay, either.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Laverne Cox - This is a much, much better reference. Please add it in addition to the one already in the article (which confirms NYC residency).

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC) *More to follow. Risker (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Lee Daniels - NYDN, try this instead. (Incidentally, the out.com article appears to be the real source of the NYDN article, with direct, poorly attributed quotes from that interview.)

 Done 03:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Drew Elliott - the current ref is a gossip site, not suitable for BLP info. This reference should do, although it's an interview with his partner. Incidentally, Elliott has just moved to MAC Cosmetics, so you may have to put him into a different category. Business? Fashion?

*More to come, need to clear cookies again. Risker (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2019 (UTC)  Done, moved to Fashion Castncoot (talk) 04:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • John Cameron Mitchell - Recommend using the NYT article, the current reference is to an on-line encyclopedia which doesn't meet WP:RS.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Janet Mock - Recommend using this reference instead. The current reference is essentially a press release.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • John Mulholland (director) - No idea what that reference is supposed to show, as far as I can see it is just a list of films on a site where one has to log in to do anything. Nothing in his Wikipedia article discuses his sexual identity. Recommend removing until a solid reference source can be identified.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Stacie Passon - none of the available references are great, but the current one doesn't actually state her sexual identity. This one at least describes her best-known film as the "loosely autobiographical story of a lesbian housewife gone wild". Incidentally, it seems she lives in New Jersey, not NYC.

 Done (NYC metro) Castncoot (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Zachary Quinto - current ref indicates he's an LGBT activist, which isn't quite the same thing. Recommend this instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 21:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Greta Schiller - the source is fine, but you're going to have to make sure it is properly attributed as opposed to just giving the google book link.

It does attribute to Here Publishing - does this not suffice? If not, then I would need some help with this, thanks. Castncoot (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Ahh, I see; it looks different in the refs list than it does in the mediawiki editing window. Should be fine, has the date and publication, states it is via google books. Risker (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC) (Consider this one  Done). Risker (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Taylor Schilling - in the referenced interview, Schilling actually refuses to "clarify" her sexual identity. She should be removed from the list.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Christopher Tyra - does not have a Wikipedia article. Remove from list.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Andrea Weiss (filmmaker) - reference doesn't mention subject's sexual identity (in fact it barely mentions the subject), and neither the article about her nor the references in that article specifically discuss her sexual identity. Remove until a solid reference is found.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Law

  • One entry, good referencing.

Literature and photography

  • Nahson Dion Anderson - this is a tricky one. Reference does not provide information on sexual identity. The only reference I could find in the WP article that confirms any kind of LGBT identity is this one, but it doesn't appear to be using the subject's current pronouns of preference, and includes what might be a deadname. I suggest holding this one out until better sourcing is identified.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Cris Beam - reference doesn't refer to sexual identity at all, nor does the subject's Wikipedia article. No clearcut references to sexual identity in the WP article references. Recommend removing until solid reference can be found.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Peter Cameron (writer) - Please remove from list. I just had to delete the article about him because it's copyvio all the way down to its first edit. No prejudice against writing a new article about him and then re-adding him, but it's not top priority.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 02:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Michael Cunningham - The reference source appears to be very gossipy. This NYT reference is probably better.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC) *Will continue later. Risker (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Annie Leibovitz - reference doesn't really confirm nature of relationship with Sontag. This one has Leibovitz use the term "lovers" so is probably better.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Ariel Schrag - not a great reference, doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. One of the refs from the article about the subject does quote her as saying "I found his envy of my queerness intriguing", so it is much more useful, but should be correctly attributed to the original magazine rather than the archive of Schrag's own website.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Sarah Schulman - reference doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. Try this one instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Ocean Vuong - reference doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. Try this one instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Edmund White - not a great reference (although it verifies sexual identity) because it appears to have been published only on the personal website of the author, not in any of the publications for which the author writes. Suggest this one instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Walt Whitman - our extensive article about Whitman states pretty bluntly that his sexual identification has always been disputed, and there is no indication that Whitman himself confirmed it.

 Done (removed) Castncoot (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Media

  • Josh Barro - The current reference is from a registration-required site (suboptimal, especially for BLPs), and I couldn't find any other non-tabloid/gossip site references even confirming Barro's sexual identity. It's *probably* okay (Queerty is generally fairly reliable and not particularly known for outing people), and there were some indications that Barro has spoken of "his boyfriend" on his own Twitter account in 2015 (they may be married now), which would definitely be preferable to the registration-required site.

 Done (new ref, please check) Castncoot (talk) 04:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi Castncoot, I saw that when I was looking about, and it seems to be mostly a gossip site; Queerty may actually be a better reference, even though that particular article seems to require registration. (I didn't get the registration request for the majority of Queerty references, and they were all pretty much fine.) I've done a bit more digging and have found this, which is kind of self-referential but Salon would probably pass the smell test. Risker (talk) 05:24, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Oh, better yet: this Out magazine 100 for 2014.Risker (talk) 05:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I actually put the other one in already- it looks okay...separately though, I don't understand your objection to NYDN as a RS...it's one of NYC's daily newspapers. Castncoot (talk) 05:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 Done. Josh Barro has two supporting sources now. Castncoot (talk) 05:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Keith Boykin - Current reference doesn't specifically confirm sexual identity. The subject has, however, on his own Twitter account

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Ben Brantley - the reference source quotes another interview for the sexual identity. Recommend using the original interview.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Andy Cohen - Anything related to Howard Stern isn't going to be a great source. Suggest using this more traditional reference instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Angela Dimayuka - reference doesn't appear to confirm sexual identity (although it links to a lot of really interesting recipes). Recommend using this instead, which is very clear and includes a direct quote from her.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 05:34, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Chris Geidner - reference does not confirm sexual identity. Geidner confirms it himself on his Twitter account.

 Done, actually removed, now in DC and not NYC. Castncoot (talk) 05:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Sally Kohn - Daily Mail is not an acceptable reference source for BLPs. Use the Washington Post article, which incidentally seems to be the basis for the DM article.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 06:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Michael Lucas (director) - reference is probably fine, but does he belong instead in the Film & Television section, since his most notable activities are related to running a studio and acting?

 Done Castncoot (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Rachel Maddow - the reference is to a blog whose reliability isn't well-established. Suggest instead the AfterEllen archived report.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 19:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Michael Musto - the reference isn't great. Suggest using this which includes a direct quote from him.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 19:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Thomas Roberts (television journalist) - current reference looks like a blog post. Suggest using the People reference instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Choire Sicha - reference doesn't appear to discuss sexual identity, which is also not discussed in the article about the subject, nor any of the references for that article. Should be removed until a better source is found.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 19:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Shepard Smith - NYDN is not a good source for BLPs. Use this instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Andy Towle - reference is borderline, and should be attributed directly to the publication rather than through a google book. Suggest looking for a better one.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Modeling

  • General question - do they belong in the fashion section instead?

 Done Good point- restructured. Castncoot (talk) 03:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Leyna Bloom - link goes to a company's website, doesn't talk about Bloom. This is a better link.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Rain Dove - link goes to a company's website, doesn't talk about Dove. This should do fine.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done (fixed) Castncoot (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Rest are okay.

Music

  • Dai Burger - Reference used is just a passing reference and doesn't confirm sexual identity. This is probably better.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 15:48, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • DJ Keoki - reference is from a borderline source but there don't seen to be any better ones on a quick search. I'll leave this one up to you.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 16:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Le1f - reference doesn't really confirm sexual identity. This is probably a better source.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Nhojj - no WP article, remove until there is one.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • St. Vincent (musician) - bit of a challenge here; her own comments in this reference and others are not explicit on her own sexual identity, but this article has her confirming a relationship with Cara Delevigne and is probably the best one.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Performance arts

  • General comment - there's a lot of overlap between this grouping and other groupings; there may be something to say in favour of merging several of these categories, particularly as so many people would probably be appropriately included in more than one of them.

--Will keep that in mind, thank you. Castncoot (talk) 16:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Amanda Lepore - having a lot of trouble getting the reference link to work; however, this one is still active and confirms sexual identity.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Politics

  • Yes, I know it's the largest city in the US. But I'm astounded that city council members are considered notable.
Yes, they are actually minor celebrities! Castncoot (talk) 04:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Daniel Dromm - reference doesn't explicitly include sexual identity. This reference does.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Carlos Menchaca - NYDN still isn't a good reference for BLPs, but the article involved is primarily about politics, so it *may* pass scrutiny. Would suggest looking for a reference from a source with better reputation in the BLP area, such as this one.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 04:52, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Rosie Mendez - neither the link nor her WP article confirm sexual identity. None of the refs for her WP article seem to confirm it either. Given her extensive presence online, it may take some time to find a suitable confirming reference. Recommend removing until one is found.

 Done --> Found a good ref that can actually be used to support the LGBTQ identity of other NY politicians as well if needed. Castncoot (talk) 05:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's an excellent reference. Good find. Risker (talk) 05:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Daniel J. O'Donnell - the reference is too nonspecific (it's the link to the entire list), put in the specific one please

 Done Castncoot (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Christine Quinn - link goes to a dead page that seems to now be assigned to a different NYC councillor. Recommend this instead.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 05:09, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Social activism

  • Brian Ellner - identified as a gay rights activist in the reference, which isn't exactly the same thing; while very much in the minority, there are many LGBT activists who aren't LGBT. Tried to find another reference from the article, and the closest that comes is this NYT article, which isn't exactly explicit, either, but might suffice.

 Done Castncoot (talk) 05:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Sports

  • General note - surprised this group is so small; on the other hand, "sports" may not really be considered "culture".
True. As more athletes come out as LGBTQ, this list may be reasonably expected to expand over time. Castncoot (talk) 05:22, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
  • otherwise, fine.

Visual arts

---End of reference checks---

Summary

The purpose of this exercise was to ensure that all entries on this list had at least one reference that confirmed the subject's sexual identity in order to meet at least that requirement of BLP. Most of the initial sources were adequate; for those that weren't, a confirmational reference source was found for almost all. The subjects of those entries who do not yet have Wikipedia articles are being removed in compliance with relevant list guidelines. There was only a small number of entries for which there was no easily-identified BLP-compliant reference source available to confirm sexual identity, and they are also being removed, with the understanding that should an appropriate reference source be identified, the subject could be re-added. From the perspective of WP:BLP, it appears to meet baseline criteria, and I do not think there are entries remaining that contravene that policy.

Once the recommendations in the section above are completed, I will move the list back to article space; Castncoot, please confirm what title it should be under when it is moved. There is no guarantee that, once the list is in article space, it will not be challenged; just as any other article, it is subject to review by the broad community and could potentially be nominated for deletion, modified significantly, or otherwise challenged. Not all of the reference sources confirm both sexual identity *and* residence in NYC, so additional sourcing of the latter point may be required in some cases.

And I now know far, far more about LGBT culture in New York City than I ever thought I'd have reason to research, what with living in a different country and having no desire to ever visit NYC again. Thank you Castncoot (and several others who made contributions) for your diligence. Risker (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Risker- will continue to work down to complete the tasks on this over the next few days. Best, Castncoot (talk) 00:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Well done, you've made it to the end of the list. Let me know what title you want it moved to, and I'll try to do so within the next 24 hours. Risker (talk) 05:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you greatly Risker for your diligence inspecting all of the references and finding more suitable ones where needed. That was certainly a big help. I think that for now, the most appropriate title to move it to would simply be "List of self-identified LGBTQ New Yorkers". Thereafter it can evolve as it may.Castncoot (talk)

@Risker and Castncoot: Would either of you object to me archiving this long section? ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and archive then. ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

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No sources

  • WP:BLPSOURCE- This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable and whether it is in a biography or in some other article.
  • WP:BLPREMOVE - Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that: is unsourced or poorly sourced.
  • Wikipedia:Libel -I t is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that the material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. It is Wikipedia policy to delete libelous material when it has been identified.
--Moxy 🍁 16:30, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Just added external link to one of the listees, an example of what can be done to confirm sexuality. If this list is to be deleted (truly regrettable), will not add any further links. But if not, will add to other listees. Have always found it a remarkable listing. Impressive to see the quite extraordinary depth and breadth of LGBT(Q) influence in NYC. In the years following and contributing to this list, am not aware of a single incidence of a request for removal. Is clearly not being looked upon as erroneous or somehow inflammatory or a negative (or positive, for that matter). Virtually every name on here is also included in Wikipedia's other LGBT Lists, such as LGBT People or LGBT Writers or LGBT Lesbian Filmmakers, etc.Figurefour44 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Manila Luzon

@Castncoot: I saw you removed Manila Luzon from this list (and the NY-related external links from her article) with the summary "not quite NYer". She wasn't born there and doesn't live there anymore, but she did live there for something like 10 years. It's where she was when she became notable for appearing on Drag Race; her hometown was listed as New York City on the show (see RuPaul's Drag Race (season 3)#Contestants). There was a source in this article to confirm her former residence there. It was an interview in which she stated, "I don't perform on stage that much, lip-syncing numbers because I live in New York City and there really isn’t that much opportunity to do it. ... I started in Minnesota but when I moved to New York City it's just a different environment here." Here are a couple more sources:

  • "Though she's a Cali queen now, Manila still calls New York home." [1]
  • "Luzon revealed she stumbled upon Drag Race by way of the late Sahara Davenport, whom she was dating at the time while they lived in New York City." [2]

Also, Manila Luzon#Personal life begins with: "A longtime resident of New York City, Manila resided in Harlem ... "

Why say she's not a New Yorker? Not everyone on this list lived (or will live) in NYC from birth to death ... Armadillopteryxtalk 02:25, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected, she is back in NYC, thanks for pointing that out. Castncoot (talk) 03:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Cool, thanks! Armadillopteryxtalk 03:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh, just a comment: That Socialite Life interview, while published in 2018, states at the top that it's a flashback, part of a series where they publish their favorite interviews from past years. Nothing in that article should be taken to be true "as of 2018". In fact, in the article Manila speaks in the present tense about her former partner Sahara Davenport, who died in 2012. Given that she's also speaking about being on Drag Race (which for her was in 2011; see RuPaul's Drag Race (season 3)), I'd guess the interview was originally published in late 2011 or early 2012. Don't use this as a source to say she's back to living in NYC; it just records that she was there for a time, as do (perhaps clearer) other sources. Armadillopteryxtalk 03:32, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Got it, thanks. Castncoot (talk) 03:42, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Literature and photography?

Combining authors and photographers into one section strikes me as a little odd. What if we move the three photographers in that section to Visual arts and then rename this section just "Literature"? Armadillopteryxtalk 01:55, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Update: decided to be WP:BOLD and do this; feel free to disagree/undo. Armadillopteryxtalk 08:27, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Looks good, please continue the boldness. Castncoot (talk) 14:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Should we add a ballroom section?

There are already five performers from the NYC ballroom scene in this article: Venus Xtravaganza and Hector Xtravaganza (in the Performance arts section) as well as Kevin Aviance, Crystal LaBeija and Pepper LaBeija (in the Drag performance section). I think they, together with the performers I list below, could easily populate a designated Ballroom/Ball culture section (and that might be most appropriate, given the house structure of that scene):

Members of the House of Amazon

Members of the House of Aviance

Members of the House of Dupree

Members of the House of LaBeija

Members of the House of Ninja

Members of the House of Omni

Members of the House of Xtravaganza

Other

I'm not aware of any standalone articles from the Houses of Balenciaga, Infiniti, Mizrahi, Mugler or Pendavis, but if someone else is, it would be great to add them as well! I should note that many of the above-linked articles are not the best written or best cited, so we may need to do our own research to locate the sourcing needed to add them to this list.

How do people feel about creating a Ballroom category (No pun intended!) and adding these entries? Armadillopteryxtalk 08:39, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Armadillopteryx: This is absolutely excellent, and I do agree with a separate section for ballroom culture. I wasn't aware of your contribution here when I added a new section entitled New York City Drag culture earlier, quite a coinicidence, but really not surprising in that it shows just how increasingly prominent the drag as well as ballroom scene in NYC is becoming. Perhaps this list could be added to this article, and then do you think you might be able to add a few summary sentences describing this overall culture in the new LGBT culture in New York City#New York City Drag culture section? Best, Castncoot (talk) 05:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
@Castncoot: Funny timing! I just answered you on my talk page about that :-D Armadillopteryxtalk 05:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it is! But I think that the notability of the subject matter itself is driving our ideas. Castncoot (talk) 05:16, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest that the ballroom culture is probably significant enough to qualify for its own article, including a solid description. This list is already extremely long, to the point that consideration should be given to splitting off sections already. Risker (talk) 05:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Wow, your guidance sounds good, Risker. See Armadillopteryx, this is what happens since you have come up with a great idea! Castncoot (talk) 05:21, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I support the idea of splitting Ballroom (and possibly others) off into their own articles. I can't, unfortunately, devote much of my own time to those projects, but I will happily contribute what I can. Armadillopteryxtalk 05:24, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I would also support an eventual spinoff but I have realized that for now it's going to be a little more complicated than at first appearance, because there is already overlap between this new list created by Armadillopteryx on this talk page and listees in the relatively short performance arts section of the article page itself. So (for now), I've combined them into one single section called ballroom and performing arts. I think what we ought to do first is to get these names above added piecemeal to the article page with proper sourcing. Once the names are in place, we can figure out the best way to recategorize the listees as needed and see which categories might actually be able to stand alone for new articles. Castncoot (talk) 08:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
If we do it this way, I have an idea: what if we create a new level-3 header called "Nightlife" and put "Drag performance", "Ballroom" and "Other" (where e.g. Klaus Nomi would go) as its subsections? Then we can use the level-3 header "Performance arts" for subsections on Broadway/theatre and dance. Does that have any appeal?
Also, a small comment about this edit: I wouldn't refer to any members of the LGBT ballroom scene as "ballroom dancers", since Ballroom dance is an unrelated art form/cultural phenomenon. What about "ballroom performer", for example? "Voguer" would also be appropriate in most (but not all) cases—sourcing should clarify that. Thanks for starting these edits, Castncoot! Armadillopteryxtalk 09:55, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Good point, Armadillopteryx- I've changed the terminology on that edit to ballroom "performer". Meanwhile, please feel free to make whatever improvements you feel are needed! Castncoot (talk) 16:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Okay, I have a few minutes now and will try something out. Feel free to comment/criticize/revert if it seems like a disimprovement. Armadillopteryxtalk 01:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Update: I've made a change to the article, and I've started striking out the entries in the above list that have been added. Armadillopteryxtalk 01:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
@Armadillopteryx:, you can add Miss Lawrence who splits time between NYC and Atlanta. Gleeanon409 (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 6 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to List of LGBT people from New York City per consensus (non-admin closure) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 15:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

List of self-identified LGBTQ New Yorkers → List of LGBT people from New York City – There are really three aspects to this. I'm hoping that doesn't muddle the discussion too much.

  1. "Self-identified" is unnecessary since we must follow self-identification project-wide anyway; I see this as parallel to WP:LISTNAME's proscribing words like "notable" in list titles.
  2. Other parts of WP:LISTNAME apply. "List of people from [city]" is explicitly given as an example, rather than the use of demonym.
  3. LGBT and New York City match those articles and similar ones (e.g., Lists of LGBT people, List of people from New York City). Note also:
  • Removal of the Q does not change the scope of the article.
  • While commonly understood in New York City to refer to people from the city, "New Yorker" is still the demonym for the whole state, and we are a global encyclopedia.

I would support any change that removes "self-identified" unless I note otherwise. I believe the other changes are also best given our policies but am more flexible on those. --BDD (talk) 21:39, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I wholly support keeping the Q, it’s more inclusive and better represents those who it’s meant to represent. More and more people identify as queer who do not feel lgbt represents them.
Businesses, Media, and community groups already have switched over, and I feel the time is soon coming when all of Wikipedia will switch over for similar reasons. Gleeanon409 (talk) 10:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I largely agree with you, but article titles should be consistent with each other. It would be better to move LGBT first. --BDD (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I would anticipate a long entrenched battle before certain editors would ever allow that to happen. By the same logic of fighting against letting the T or B in, no matter which side of history they were on. I say just keep making progress where we’re at and save that one for later. We already have loads of LGBTQ articles so it’s not that big of deal to leave it as is, whereas editors do war over letting the Q in after. Gleeanon409 (talk) 20:35, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Alright, I'm looking in titles and LGBTQ is more common than I realized, though still nowhere near as popular as LGBT. --BDD (talk) 15:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
I support maintaining the title exactly as is now. In its present form, this is the most appropriately functional and representative title on multiple levels. Castncoot (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Self-Identified seems unnecessary. List of LGBTQ New Yorkers is smoother, less cluttered. Announces precisely what the list consists of, LGBTQ New Yorkers. Mostly relieved and delighted that the list is alive and kicking.Figurefour44 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:11, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't mind "List of LGBTQ New Yorkers" either. Castncoot (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Agree. Gleeanon409 (talk) 09:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rename article

I suggest that the article should use "LGBT" rather than "LGBTQ" in the title, as LGBT is the standard usage on Wikipedia. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Bohemian Baltimore, I have just requested the formal move of the article to the change you proposed. You can express your support if you want. Super Ψ Dro 11:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 02:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

List of LGBTQ people from New York City → List of LGBT people from New York City – "LGBT" instead of "LGBTQ" is way more used in the titles of other Wikipedia articles and it's the common practice. Super Ψ Dro 11:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

  • Support for consistency with the article LGBT. SnowFire (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. There seems some confusion over the result of #Requested move 6 January 2020 above, which was closed (correctly I think) as a move to List of LGBT people from New York City and the move performed. But closer subsequently moved it again to the current name with the edit Typo when acting on successful requested move. This rather strange action was queried and the reply was even stranger, see above. It looks like a unilateral attempt by the closer to act against consensus, but AGF and assume they're just confused. In any case, there is already a policy-based consensus that the name should be List of LGBT people from New York City and I will add my opinion that this is the best title in terms both of common name and consistency. Andrewa (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nicky Doll

I want to add Nicky Doll to this article, but although I can find dozens of sources to verify her ties to New York City (e.g. this one), I'm having a hard time finding a source to confirm she self-identifies as LGBT. Does anyone else know of a source that could be used for this purpose? Armadillopteryx 03:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

My concern about the gallery aside (see above), this is a thorough and well-sourced list. Thoughts on what would be required to get the entry promoted to Featured list status? ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:06, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Just thinking aloud (well, in writing): what sort of metric could we use to assess this list's comprehensiveness? Armadillopteryx 01:27, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Armadillopteryx, Well, I suppose comprehensiveness is one thing and extensiveness is another. I'm sure there are more names to be added, and of course the list will continue to grow, but from my perspective we should be more concerned about quality sourcing for existing content and a solid foundation for additional growth. I see this list as similar to the List of XXX University alumni entries and similar, some of which are decent in quality but not necessarily "complete". ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@Another Believer: How do those things usually factor into an FL review? I've never partaken. Armadillopteryx 04:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Armadillopteryx, Wikipedia:Featured list criteria has a note on comprehensiveness. Some examples of the alumni lists can be seen at Wikipedia:Featured_lists#Education. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

While I love the many images of so many wonderful people, I'm concerned about the current image frame breaking so many section headings. On my screen, even the References section is forced to have a single column because the gallery goes so far down. I'm also concerned how the gallery might appear on phones and mobile devices. Thoughts on removing this image frame and replacing with smaller galleries within specific sections? ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:29, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right--on a mobile device with a narrow display, the reader would have to scroll down past all the pictures to reach the body text. I agree that it would be better to distribute the pictures across sections. gnu57 04:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
No one else has weighed in, so I've gone ahead and removed the galleries. Feel free to add back smaller galleries or images within sections. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
No. This has been throughly vetted at the administrative level. Castncoot (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Castncoot, I'm not sure what that means. Can you share a link? What are your thoughts on breaking up the single gallery? That's way, way too big. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:19, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
You can see my talk page as well as this Talk page above. As far as breaking up the gallery- absolutely, I would be in favor of that. But deleting 10,000 bytes and every single picture is analogous to the horrendous expression throwing the baby out with the bath water. I do agree that a break-up would be helpful, however. Perhaps, 1) A-F, 2) G-M, 3) N-S, 4) T-Z might be a good start. Castncoot (talk) 04:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Castncoot, Wouldn't galleries for some sections be better? This way people in politics are grouped together, others in drag, etc. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:37, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I like that. One gallery per subsection would look terrific. Perhaps we can both work on that project, and others are of course always more than welcome to join. Castncoot (talk) 04:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Castncoot, I've removed the single gallery again. There is not consensus to keep. I'm not opposed to section galleries being added, but the single one is not appropriate. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
OK, I will work on the split galleries then. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Castncoot (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Kandy Muse

Assuming there's a source specifically confirming sexual orientation, I believe Kandy Muse could be added to this list. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:49, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Image spam out of control

Article not legible for those viewing in mobile view...no one will scroll 100 time to find information. Example of what not to do.--Moxy- 13:18, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Per WP IUP: "Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text. A gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. Just as we seek to ensure that the prose of an article is clear, precise and engaging, galleries should be similarly well-crafted. Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article while avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made." Herein is exactly the whole point- that each individual in the left column is as notable in their own right as the next- there are no metrics to say that one LGBT individual is "better" or "more" notable than another. If they are described in the text column the left, then they are pertinent, notable, and appropriately illustrated. I'm not aware of any specific numerical policy ratio. Never assume that everyone has the same look on their browser or uses their browser in the same manner you do. There is also a function called 'Desktop' at the bottom of the page on mobile that takes barely a couple of seconds to scroll down to. Generally speaking, putting an UNDUE emphasis on one single aspect of WP:MOS ignores the greater good accomplished by taking a more holistic view. Castncoot (talk) 18:16, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for regurgitating what I wrote years ago....its clear to me now we need to be more blunt as you missed all 4 points. Its wonderful you like images...but its to the point that its detrimental to the articles your editing (as has been said to you many times) - net negative.--Moxy- 00:04, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
Policy is policy, and that's what I'm following. Policy trumps opinion. Castncoot (talk) 05:31, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
At some point it would be nice if you followed our basic MOS rules MOS:ACCIM. Perhaps you can structure the article to be accessible for all devices not just the one you're using and user-friendly like at List of people from Ottawa.--Moxy- 10:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Gregory Gourdet

Where should we add Gregory Gourdet[1]?

References

  1. ^ "Openly Gay 'Top Chef' Alum Gregory Gourdet To Judge On New Season". Instinct Magazine. 2020-09-30. Retrieved 2021-05-10.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

---Another Believer (Talk) 19:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Now know why it won't load on mobile devices

Articles with many images will time out on mobile versions of Wikipedia. Ideally, a page should have no more than 100 images (regardless of how small). See MediaWiki:Limit number of images in a page.Moxy- 04:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

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"LGBT from" listed at Redirects for discussion

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