Talk:List of video games with LGBT characters

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


Listification / Tablification[edit]

Multiple editors during the AFD have mentioned that the article's current proseline state is not quite suitable for a list article, which is how it was originally split from the parent themes article. I'd like to start by pointing to the main hub at Lists of LGBT figures in fiction and myth. On one hand, I find List of LGBT characters in film to be to be lacking in detail. While it does note orientation of characters, there is no detail beyond that such as character reception or impact. List of LGBT characters in television and radio and List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction however introduce a Note column, which contains many notes that are similar to those found in this list.

I would recommend we follow the latter two as an example. Below are two suggested table formats. The first is by character, while the second is by game/series, as the article is currently organized by to some degree.

Character Year Introduced Developer Series First Appearance Description References
Bob 1999 Bob Inc. Bobville, the Series Bobville, the Beginning Bob, the main character, is gay and married to Gary. [1]
Gary 1999 Bob Inc. Bobville, the Series Bobville, the Beginning Gary is gay and married to Bob. [1]
Game or Series Year Introduced Developer Character(s) Description References
Bobville, the Series 1999 Bob Inc.
  • Bob
  • Gary
Bob (Main character) and Gary are gay, and married. [1]

The first table fits the article and naming standards of the lists, while the second table fits the current organization a bit better. There's some content in this article that is closer to something like List of LGBT-related video games (Which doesn't exist) than a List of LGBT characters in video games (Redirect, former name of this article).

The AFD has closed, and nearly everyone said cleanup was needed, and many called for a format change. This is just meant to get a ball rolling and I'm completely open to other suggestions. -- ferret (talk) 15:07, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

  • I definitely agree that a format change is necessary. I personally prefer the second one, as I don't think the series or first appearance is necessary to track. (Not to mention, at least currently, I don't believe many of the characters are recurring, or even from series.
  • However, as you mentioned mentioned - the article is currently more structured as "Video games that have LGBT characters", than "LGBT characters in games". I do believe we either need to be listing the character first, to focus more on the character, or retitle the article accordingly. My vote: I prefer the simplicity of option 2, only with listing the character first, then the game entry. Sergecross73 msg me 15:19, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
    • These are definitely just examples. I came up with Series and First Appearance just playing in my sandbox. They could be combined into simply "Appearances" as well. -- ferret (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

I actually prefer prose for an article like this. Tables make the content harder to read and more difficult to add free-form text, in particular when entries are non-homogeneous, like in this list. I note that in the two table examples above, there's little room for the accompanying explanation that all items in the article currently have.

In any case, shouldn't we decide first what will be the inclusion criteria and overall structure for the cleanup that you fellows want to do? The grouping and fields of the list/prose sections/table should emerge from that. Diego (talk) 16:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

You've now rejected all inclusion criteria, and all suggestions for a reformatting. You've got give a little bit here, you know. Especially considering the AFD showed a consensus that some substantial reworking is necessary. Sergecross73 msg me 17:47, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Could you PLEASE comment on the ideas expressed, rather than another editor's behavior? BTW I was not going to participate in this thread, I only did it because ferret asked me to. Diego (talk) 18:02, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not saying you didn't have a right to comment or something, I'm merely pointing out that you've actively opposed virtually every suggestion for change since the AFD discussion, while making zero suggestions for change yourself. You even seem to grumble when people remove unsourced junk entries. I'm just saying itd be nice if you weren't fighting change every step of the way. Sergecross73 msg me 18:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
I'll reply at your talk page, this is off topic and best discussed at user_talk. Diego (talk) 19:09, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
  • I guess option B does focus more on the game than the character, but it seems easier to navigate - if a game/series features several LGBT characters, they'll all be grouped together and only take up one spot in the list. Another option would be to not do a list at all, and instead have prose about the history of LGBT characters and their portrayal, while mentioning particularly noteworthy examples from different eras - this is what I as a reader would want, but perhaps it would be too much of a change from what the article currently is trying to do. I don't know. (note that I'm unlikely to work much if anything on this myself - I'm interested in the subject, but it's not the kind of article I'm interested in putting my WP time into)--IDVtalk 17:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
  • If this is changed into a table, would there be a single giant table, or a table for each section? Would sections still be grouped by decade/year, or do we use the classification from the academic paper we have available? (Those are relevant questions either if we keep prose or we change it into table format). Diego (talk) 18:28, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
  • If there was a "year" section to the table, it would eliminate the need for the decades separation we currently have, which is kind of awkward as is anyways, with there being a lot of non-standardized subsections for each decade currently... Sergecross73 msg me 18:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
  • If character is not the primary sort, I would expect the year column to be primary sort, which would make decade sections become some what irrelevant. Additionally, we should be able to do this as a sortable table without issue, which also solves the issue. I just didn't go that far for samples. -- ferret (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Huge shoutout to @Daniel Carrero for taking on this effort. -- ferret (talk) 12:38, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! :) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:42, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorey and Mikleo situation- Tales of Zestiria[edit]

I found a small article on them being canon/homosexual on here, but recently when I came to look, it was gone. It was a perfectly explained article, but without source. I recently was able to find the source for every specific thing mentioned, but now there's an argument on whether it's too vague or not. I do agree some parts are kept vague (for example, Bandai who didn't clearly stated it but instead dropped hints and indirect statements), but some things are undeniable, in my opinion.

Tales of Zestiria features a male lead, Sorey, and his male best friend, Mikleo, who are strongly implied to be in love with each other. In the game's skit-style dialogue, the player can see that Sorey finds Mikleo attractive (the word in question being a "babe"). A later skit also finds Sorey and Mikleo confirming that "things like [love] come up" for them; however, there are no female characters that could potentially be love interests for either of them—the game very clearly shows that. In an interview with the scriptwriter, it is said that an "m/f romance wouldn't work for Sorey." Multiple in-game titles show that Sorey and Mikleo are of the utmost importance to each other; Mikleo has the character title "Soulmate" in Japanese (translated to "Peas in a Pod") and Hideo Baba, the brand manager and producer of the series, calls Mikleo Sorey's "one and only," another title in-game. Explicit confirmation is lacking, as Bandai Namco feels they cannot outright state it, but these implications are virtual confirmation.

This is the piece I'm talking about which got removed due to no sources. I gathered some links to multiple pages explaining these arguments. Some of it are tumblr blogs, yes I read the Wikipedia policy, but it is a translation of an interview with Hideo Baba, the scriptwriter from Tales of Zestiria. One of the links also provides a screenshot of something Hideo Baba said on the Bandai site, but the interview has been removed from the site. Also, the reason why Bandai can't outright state it is because homosexuality is still kind of taboo in Japan. Sales would drop, logically, thus this is most likely the reason why they kept it small. But, they still somehow made a homosexual (I'd call it skinny love) relationship work in a very delicate manner.

Official in game titles (if you have the game, you can find evidence of this too in the title section)- http://luzloshiv-lelei.tumblr.com/post/113736183965/compilation-of-mikleos-titles-that-seem-to-be Thing's like love come up (skit)- http://jeredu.tumblr.com/post/132778595277/messenger-of-love-skit-since-nobody-seems-to-have Sorey's idea of babe hunting- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMjSDEJLti0&feature=youtu.be&t=44m (skit starting from 44:00, Wicked Nekkid Wind) Official novel translation where Sorey calls Mikleo beautiful- https://talesofsymphoniac.tumblr.com/post/138842941142/its-been-a-week-since-i-finished-the-game-and-i Translation of the interview with Hideo Baba (interview should be on the Bandai official Japanese site)- http://kiraleshoot.tumblr.com/post/132078427863/interview-just-a-part-of-it-translation (part 1) http://kiraleshoot.tumblr.com/post/116222176378/so-i-shared-the-interviews-of-the-voice-actors (part 2) Hideo Baba stating Mikleo is Sorey's one and only (this was removed from the official Bandai site, but this post includes a screenshot of the official Japanese text)- http://minoath.tumblr.com/post/148142823525/that-interview-with-baba-in-case-people-need-the

Yes, it could be argued that this is vague, but a few things are undeniable. 1. The in game titles for Sorey and Mikleo. 2. Some of the linked skits (for example, Sorey calling Mikleo a babe and it's true that things like that (love) come up.. which Mikleo ends with but you've gotta be the last person we'd talk to about it.). 3. The official novel in which Sorey poetically rants about how beautiful Mikleo is, which doesn't exactly seem like something you'd think about a friend or family, especially not same sex. 4. Yes, this is translated by a tumblr blog, but I don't see why that's wrong. If you take a good look on the internet you can find more translations of the interview, and all of them exactly say a male/female relationship doesn't work for Sorey. Baba also stated that there is romance in the series which is not a m/f relationship, which makes clear Sorey is not asexual either, which leaves him homosexual, if you look at the many hints and statements dropped. Mikleonly (talk) 13:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

This is all original research and not acceptable sourcing on Wikipedia. You need a third party reliable source (something like you'd see at WP:VG/S websites like IGN or Eurogamer) that directly states the LGBT aspect. None of this "Well character X said character Y was cute" nonsense. I'm talking "Staff Writer at IGN noted Sorey and Mikleo was a good example of a homosexual relationship in JRPGs" or something of that nature. It needs to be directly stated, or it does not belong on the list. Sergecross73 msg me 13:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Shouldn't the interview with the game's producer Hideo Baba be considered an acceptable sourcing? The person who helped write/produce the game would seemingly be a higher and more trustworthy source than IGN or Eurogamer. There's an article on LGBTQ game archive here (https://lgbtqgamearchive.com/2017/02/11/sorey-and-mikleo-in-tales-of-zestiria/) that cites the Baba interview that mentions the LGBT relationship. Hiigara129 (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2017[edit]

I'd like to make several additions to the list, starting from several characters from DanganRonpa V3. Ziodyne (talk) 05:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 05:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Very well. Here are my additions:
The protagonist, Shuichi Saihara is heavily implied to be bisexual.
1) He is fine with accompanying both female and male characters during the Love Suite Events.
2) Notably, he consents to being in a romantic relationship with K1-B0 (a robot who identifies as male and should also be added to this list). He also expresses disappointment when Kokichi leaves during his own Love Suit event. He does not consent to engaging in a romantic with Korekiyo, but he ::states that he "doesn't deny he's curious".
3) During one of his Free Time event with Kaito, he muses that his thoughts about his male best friend don't seem very platonic.
One of the characters, Kokichi is heavily implied to be homosexual.
1) He flirts with the protagonist Shuichi constantly, even going as far as to say he wants to steal his heart.
2) He flirts with other male characters as well, and has a negative reaction to seeing a half naked female classmate in chapter two.
Tenko is a confirmed lesbian. She has a rather over the top fondness for girls and dislikes men, but she truly loves one character in particular (Himiko).
K1-B0 outright admits to being in love with Shuichi during his love hotel sequence.

Ziodyne (talk) 04:50, 8 November 2017 (UTC)Ziodyne

Status on this potential change?

Ziodyne (talk)Ziodyne —Preceding undated comment added 00:03, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 00:11, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

The hotel events are unlockables in the game itself, what do you mean by "reliable source"? Can't we just link to the game's steam page? 86.120.200.29 (talk) 12:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2017[edit]

Change:

"a gay and lesbian murder mystery problem solving game for Apple Mac computers written in the HyperCard language, distributed on underground gay bulletin boards."

To:

"a murder mystery/problem solving game for Apple Mac computers written in the HyperCard language, distributed on underground lgbtq bulletin boards. The player assumed the role of a lesbian detective investigating a missing trans woman in the Castro neighborhoods of San Francisco." IAmAHorror (talk) 00:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: The slash punctuation mark is deprecated in such contexts (although a well-placed hyphen or two might be helpful). "LGBTQ", which should be capitalized, was not commonly used in 1988, so it would be an anachronism to use it here. I agree that the current wording isn't ideal. If no one improves it in the meantime, I'll take another look after I've had time to read the cited source. RivertorchFIREWATER 16:08, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Adult game inclusion[edit]

Not sure how I feel about the inclusion of games such as Artificial Academy. These are 100% pure fan creation games. The characters themselves are only created via character creator, so it's not as if someone wrote them to be gay/straight or otherwise. I feel like this boarders on adding every fetish game under the sun. This list should probably only be about character specifically written to be LGBT. --Tarage (talk) 01:47, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

On second reading... I'm thinking maybe non-adult game creation should stay, such as the Sims. That is important enough to merit inclusion because so many games prevent same sex relationships. Artificial Academy however... The point is not to be inclusive, but to pander to fetishes. --Tarage (talk) 01:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm interested in discussing where can we draw the line. For example, wouldn't we want to include basically all yuri and yaoi games here, even if many are pandering to fetishes by definition? Some may have erotic content but also have stories. On the other hand, Artificial Academy doesn't have its own article so (regardless of any merits or lack thereof) maybe a point can be made that it's not notable enough to be in this list.
Artificial Academy is basically just a sex simulator, in that it has very little story and interaction besides a few options like "go to karaoke", "go to school" and "confess love" and has a detailed interface for sex things like choosing sex positions. This is unlike The Sims, in which there are lots of things to do, and while the game does include sex, it's pixelated and the game does not focus on it.
Apparently Kindred Spirits on the Roof (lesbian) and Coming Out on Top (gay) are two notable examples (I mean: they have stories and they have their own articles), but they do have some porn. I suppose these can be kept?
One possible plan B could be keeping List of yaoi games (current blue link), creating List of yuri games (current red link) and removing these games from List of video games with LGBT characters as redundant. I'm not advocating this, just saying it's a possibility that may or may not have its merits.
One of these days, I added True Love (1995) to the list. I think this one is worth mentioning because while it's a dating sim with heterosexual hentai images, you can get with a guy at the ending but there are no adult images with him, so it's not pandering to people who'd like to see gay sex, and it's not a yaoi game. Apparently, many adult and non-adult dating sims prevent same-sex relationships too.
FWIW, List of animation and graphic art works with LGBT characters has a few hentai titles here and there. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I think if it's genre defining or vital to the LGBT as a whole, then inclusion is fine. If it's a game who's purpose isn't porn, then it's fine. As soon as it's purpose becomes porn, it's not worth including. I'm actually in favor of deleting the 'list of yaoi games' because 90% of them are red links and it's not even valuable since most aren't even translated in English and that list is not even close to being comprehensive. --Tarage (talk) 18:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Do you have any objections to what I've said above? If not I'm going to start pruning in a day or so. --Tarage (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I'd say purely adult games (I.e. no iota of a story or character development) should be out, as well as fan games with no significant coverage. Everything here should have degree of secondary coverage. I'd almost suggest that all entries most be notable and have their own article as well, but that would need a separate discussion. -- ferret (talk) 23:27, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree, which is why I'm probably gonna tag the BL list with a delete here soon. --Tarage (talk) 23:58, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
BL list? Nevermind, I see that's the name for the yaoi games list. -- ferret (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
It's a 'list' that is neither inclusive(Such a list would be pages long and hilarious to try to keep up to date) nor does it actually link to many articles besides a few. It's fan fluff and it has no purpose here other than perhaps to be a look up page for fans. Not something that belongs on Wikipedia. --Tarage (talk) 00:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
And I've nominated it, because it's not worth having. Feel free to jump in. --Tarage (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Unnamed/Minor Character inclusion[edit]

Another thing I've found while looking through the list: "An unnamed minor character". If the character doesn't even have a name... is it really worth including them? One or two throwaway lines don't seem like they matter. If we REALLY want to go down that road then you'd have to mention the infamous scene in FF7 with crossdressing and... I just don't feel like it's worthy of inclusion. This list should be a sign of how video games portray LGBT people, positive and negative. I don't feel like this "An unnamed minor character" is worth any introspection. --Tarage (talk) 01:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I support removing some minor characters, including unnamed minor characters and characters whose existence consists of one or two throwaway lines. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Make sure to view this in the right lens. This is a list of video games with LGBT characters, not a list of LGBT characters. That said, minor throwaway characters may not make the bar, especially if there is a lack of secondary coverage. -- ferret (talk) 16:35, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Still, I hope the LGBT characters of each game get listed here whenever possible. When I was cleaning up the list, I found a few instances of text basically saying "This video game has LGBT characters!" that didn't explain further or mention the characters. I tried to fix this for multiple games, and I added "clarification needed" for other games. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on List of video games with LGBT characters. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of video games with LGBT characters. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:04, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Danganronpa V3 and some other suggestions[edit]

Hi! I noticed you had several characters for Danganronpa 2, so I figured I'd bring up V3. I'm not that great at editing, so I figured I'd put it here to run it past people who are better at it than me. Sorry if I mess this up, I'm really bad at this.

In Danganronpa V3, there are several LGBT characters.

Tenko Chabashira - Tenko has an obvious crush on Himiko Yumeno, another girl, and even calls Himiko her soulmate in the back route of the Chapter 2 Class Trial and her ideal girl in the bonus mode. Also, in her official English profile, it states that women complimenting her will "make her heart aflutter", but if men were to give her the same compliments it would result in them "getting thrown across the room".

Shuichi Saihara - Shuichi is pretty implied to be bisexual, as during his love suite events, he is shown to be interested in any of the characters regardless of gender. Furthermore, in a free time event with Kaito, he states that "only Kaito could give me what I need" and then gets flustered and says he shouldn't be thinking about boys like that.

K1-B0 - Keebo is a robot and is genderless, and when Tenko asks him about it he says he has never really thought about his gender and doesn't really know his gender himself, although he refers to himself w/ he pronouns. It also is implied that he can fall for anyone regardless of gender, because he has a crush on Shuichi in the love suite mode.

Kokichi Oma - Kokichi admits during his free time events w/ Shuichi that he wants to steal his heart, and wants Shuichi to think about him constantly. He also calls Rantaro Amami "my dearest Rantaro"/"beloved Amami-chan" and keeps Angie's wax statue of him in his room.

Also, outside of Danganronpa, it's worth mentioning that in Night In The Woods, Jackie (Bea's friend) is missing, and she's a confirmed trans woman. Also, in Horizon Zero Dawn, Brageld is a gay man Aloy meets who is mourning the loss of his significant other.

Again, I'm really sorry if this was annoying or poorly written, I'm not used to doing this!! Iwillprobablyneverusethis (talk) 05:59, 5 March 2018 (UTC)