Talk:List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin/Archive 1

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This would be nice if next to the words their meanings were listed.

I've started working on that. Unfortunately many of these words are rarely used today, so their meanings are sometimes obscure. I went down to "ameţi" but DEX online -- a collection of Romanian dictionaries -- has just gone offline, so I'll have to wait.
I could use any available help though... — AdiJapan ☎ 06:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Have a look at this old version of the List of Dacian words page: [1]. You'll find the translation for some words. Mentatus 09:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks! — AdiJapan ☎ 10:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome, Adrian. Mentatus 13:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

"Move to Wiktionary"

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with Dmcdevit, who says this page should be moved to Wictionary. This article does not concern the translation or explanation of a group of words, the translation part was only added afterwards, for English readers who don't understand Romanian.

The main purpose of this article is to list a series of words that might represent the substratum of the Eastern Romance languages, that is, words that might be the last surviving bits of the Dacian language. It concerns history and linguistics.

The simple fact that it talks about words is not a good enough reason to think it is better suited to a dictionary. It is an encyclopedic article, 100%. More so than the following articles:

and many others which I don't think are useful to anyone.

As such, I removed the "Move to Wiktionary" label. — AdiJapan ☎ 10:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I also definitely oppose the suggested move to Wiktionary. IMHO it is preferable to have all the substratum words listed in an Wikipedia article than spread all over the Wiktionary. Mentatus 12:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

removal

almost all, if not all, of the words connected to Albanian are in fact borrowed from that language. they should be removed from the list immediately, especially since full etymologies and phonological transformations can be given for just about each word (in Albanian). du nay was clear in his "history of the romanian language" that russu's list was preposterous; albanian is the source for a great many of these words. i would refer anyone to vladimir orel's works on albanian etymology, all of which are in english and from around 2000.

Flibjib8 23:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You could, for example, add a paragraph about the Albanian origin of those words if you have references to back it up. However, we cannot just remove those words from the list, since they represent a published point of view, which is regarded as scientifically sound by other linguists. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
Can you also clarify when and how those Albanian words came to be borrowed in Romanian? — AdiJapan ☎ 04:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Some words are not of Dacian origin

Here are some remarks, I don't insist on them, just want to be helpful.
I think some words in the list are of Slavic, Turkic or Iranian origin. The word stăpîn is also present in Bulgarian (stopan) and is believed to be of Iranian origin. The words cioban, ciomag and some others are clearly of Ottoman Turkish origin, and one should not forget the adstratum of various other Turkic peoples and languages in the wider region. If a word is present also in Hungarian, it should be considered more likely to be of Turkic origin! I remember when studying Hungarian they pointed KALAUZ as a Cuman word, couldn't balaur also be of Cuman or similar origin? Just a shadow of doubt, I don't know myself.
The word "gorun" is clearly Slavic, plz check Bulgarian горун, благун (gorun, blagun), names of trees! In common Slavic and Church Slavonic GORA means "mountain", while in middle or modern Bulgarian (Serbian too) it has come to mean "forest". The word GARD could be a very early Slavic (before the metathesis of liquids (Ar>RA, cf. a "frozen" early Slavic placename Gardiki in Greece, Peloponnes [remained as pronounced until 7-8 century] and compare it's developed form in Gradec (grad-ec), the Slovenian name for Austria's city of Graz. It could be of course some Germanic borrowing. Groapă should be related to Slavic *grobǔ (pronounced since early as [GROP], meaning "GRAVE"). The word iazmǎ looks suspiciously Greek, I can't be sure, however, ZM is a typical phoneme combination for Greek. Another Greek word is leagǎn, here I'm sure. It goes through Turkish liğen, which comes from Greek lachani, if I remember well. Anyway, in Bulgarian it is legen, so the southern relation seems more likely. I can't believe I see şut (English SHOOT, a football term) mentioned here as Dacian! This word is also present in Serbian (šutirati-to kick) where it is clearly a foreign loanword. Also, stejar, whenever there is J in position other than initial, the word is likely to be SLAVIC! Stejar could be related to Croatian and Bulgarian STOŽER (with various meanings but generally something firm, stable and reliable).
Finally, why should Albanian words be deleted or explicitly pointed as Albanian borrowings? They cannot be borrowings if they come from the common predecessor of both Romanian and Albanian! On the contrary! It would be untrue and therefore unscientific! National affinities should be expressed elsewhere! There is no better proof of the Paleo-Balkan origin than the presence of an Albanian equivalent!

Cheers 85.11.148.125 22:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are aware that articles in Wikipedia can only contain information that has already been published elsewhere. Arguments, no matter how scientific, must be given by indicating their sources, otherwise they fall in the "original research" category, which is not allowed here. What I mean is that, if you have references that support your arguments, you are welcome to make those changes directly in the article. In its current form, this article contains only statements from sources that have entered the scientific circuit, all of them mentioned in the article. It is not Wikipedia's role to decide whether they are true or not (no matter how strange that may sound). You can, however, contribute to the article by pointing out those statements that, according to other sources, are incorrect.
I corrected the entry of gorun by indicating Bulgarian горун as an alternative etymology, which I found in a Romanian dictionary, online here.
About iazmă, the same dictionary says "unknown etymology".
About leagăn: Romanian dictionaries give as possible origin Latin ligare (to tie), through an undocumented form *liginare. If you have a source stating it comes from Greek, please add that info in the article. In any case, at least one scientist claims it might be of Dacian origin, so I included it in the list.
About şut: someone made the mistake to translate the word as kick, while in fact there are other meanings. One of them is (animal) without horns, which links it to the Albanian word shut. I corrected the translation in the article.
I'm not sure what you mean by deleting Albanian words. In some place the Albanian equivalents are missing just because I wasn't able to find them in my dictionaries. Also, I don't see why you're talking about national affinities.
I know this article is far from being complete yet; I only got to about the middle. Of course, I could use all the help I can get. Cheers. — AdiJapan ☎ 05:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Move to new title

The title seems incorrect. A better title would be "List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin" or something (perhaps another word than "possible" like presumed, estimated, plausible, supposed etc...) 惑乱 分からん 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Ever since I wrote the leading paragraph I thought the title was wrong. Thanks for the push, I moved the article at the title you suggested. 分からん? 分かるじゃん! — AdiJapan ☎ 02:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Good. The subject is interesting, though, and deserves a good article. (My japanese is rather poor, though, but I'm happy when people get the dumb pun in the signature...) 惑乱 分からん 02:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Some words' translations

Hi :p

I took a brief look on your list. Nice work. I am not a lingvist or something, but I always looked for such a list.

There are some words that you said are not used anymore. I'll try to find a meaning to them and just add them in this section.

For example "deh" is a sort of "well", or "however" or "anyway" (interjection) 

 For example: Daca tot eram in magazin, mi-am luat si o caciula noua, ca deh... oricum cheltuisem aproape toti banii.
 [As I was already in the shop, I also bought myself a new hat, as I'd spent almost all my money anyway]

I don't want to mess up your article :P As soon as I find new possible meanings for words in the list I'll add them here. Also, if I have a source for them, I'll add it too. You add them in the table. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Octav43 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

You could be right about deh, but you cannot be sure that Hasdeu referred to that meaning of the word. Somehow I don't think Hasdeu would have introduced an interjection in his list, so I suspect his deh might have had another meaning.
The same problem appears at some other words. For example someone thought the word bară in the list had the meaning of English bar (rod, shaft), but for that meaning the etymon is obviously the French barre (and previously Latin *barra). The meaning of bară that might actually come from Dacian is that of marsh or puddle.
When translating and describing the etymology we have to make sure we are considering the right meaning. — AdiJapan ☎ 03:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi & thank you for having started such a great topic! Could you please consider adding the following comments to the list: for the word "urda", see the English word "curd" of similar meaning q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curd; etymology of curd possibly PIE (Proto Indo-European) "*greut-" refer to http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=curd&searchmode=none. For "zǎr" (also zer?) see "serum" (latin for whey)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum, from PIE *ser-/*sor- q.v. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=serum&searchmode=none Gabrieli 15:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

In Polish, ser = cheese, bryndza = brînză; which suggests a common source of origin at some point. Gabrieli 16:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Found a few more, but must rest now :)
creţ = kręcony (Polish for curly)
cujbă = kij (stick in Polish) possibly 'cuj-[băţ {Rom.}]' = kërbaç Albanian; q.v. Eng. Cudgel from O.E. cycgel
q.v. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=cudgel&searchmode=none
ghes = godas 'poke' in Albanian
ghiob = possibly 'doboš' [barrel] in Serbian
gordin = gruda Polish for grape
mătura = metla (Serbian) ; miotła (Polish) ; mitla (Ukrainian); for broom
melc = mileti (Serbian)
mieru = more (Serbian); = mėlynas (Lithuanian) [if an 'r' to 'l' change]; for blue
murg = mrk (Serbian) for brown; q.v. English 'murk' [from Proto Germanic *merkwjo-
{http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=murk&searchmode=none}]
pinza = pinti (Lithuanian) for weave; pinklės is Lithuanian for web; pajęczyna is Polish for web
rabdare = endure (English) = duruar (patient in Albanian)
sopirla = zhapiu (tr. Shq. Albanian), zhapinj (Shumës Albanian)
stapan = stary-pan 'old-master' in Polish and Ukrainian
vatra = vatra (tr. Shq. Albanian), vatra (Shumës Albanian) vatër (Albanian)
viscol = vihor (Serbian) for storm
Sarmizegetusa: shar = city (Kurdish) [of the] massagetae {my opinion}; original idea ~ 'shar mizgeft' = 'temple city' in Kurdish from the article by Ali Hussein Kerim "So many similarities ... are Kurds and Romanians related?" q.v. http://www.dacia.org/mag-2005-24.pdf. See also "The six Mede tribes in Herodotus" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes making a Thracian-Median connection, and the land of the Medes also in present day Kurdistan. Gabrieli 20:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Citations (just asking)

I haven't been following this closely (my knowledge of the languages in question is not nearly at the level to make useful contributions) but I notice edits like this that add information without adding sources. Could someone tell me: does this represent going back to the same source and taking more information from it, or adding information that now appears to be attributed to a source that does not actually contain that information? - Jmabel | Talk 07:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The main source is the DEX, as stated in the "References" section, which would become pretty large if we added a link to the entries in the dictionary for each word. If necessary, I could add "NODEX" in the "Sources" column. Hope it answers your question. Mentatus 07:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Dacian words

I think the Dacian words from which the Romanian words listed should probably be included, it would help to show that words weren't just thrown in there. How do we know the words are from Dacian if we don't know what the Dacian words are/were? — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 06:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, that's the big problem, we don't have access to the original Dacian words. Linguists just believe these words come from Dacian because there is no other language they could come from, so automatically they are thought to have remained from the substratum. Part of the words have cognates in Albanian, which is thought to have emerged from a language related to Dacian, and this helps in supporting the hypothesis of Dacian origin for these words. But there is no hard proof. — AdiJapan ☎ 16:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Wrong word

There are no Serbian word berikat. Maybe berićet(profit, earnings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.157.153 (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The Serbian word berikat is mentioned in no less than three dictionaries [2]. It could be an old, regional, or infrequent word, which might explain why modern speakers don't know it. — AdiJapan ☎ 11:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

corrections needed

Some corrections will be needed:

1) use the correct s-with-comma-below, not s-cedilla in Romanian

2) mention when a spelling is not current anymore in Romanian

3) mention when a word is not current anymore in Romanian, indicating the current one(s)

4) mention when a word is only used regionally (e.g. at the countryside and which part of it) or only archaically (e.g. in bedtime stories and/or by old geezers). Many old words fall in these categories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.119.244.141 (talk) 06:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Some notices

I noticed some things upon reviewing this article:

  • acăţa (to catch) - can it be related to the PIE root for catch (unfortunately, I can't remember it but I know Albanian kap [to catch] is one of its derivatives.) If so should PIE roots be included?
  • ală (a monster that unleashes storms) - possible relation to Albanian Djall?
  • aprig (fiery, hot-blooded) - possible relation to Albanian prek (to offend -- also means to touch)?
  • bară (marsh) - possible relation to Albanian bar (grass)?
  • buză (lip) - maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't this come from the Byzantine Greek?

There is probably a lot more that I missed, but this is what I could find.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There's a PIE root *kap- meaning "grasp, hold". Could it be that one? Also, Dacian is assumed to be PIE, anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
PIE roots are marginally relevant in this article, so I guess mentioning them would be fine. The main problem though is that we need sources to verify those claims. Otherwise it would be original research.
Dacian is not PIE, but maybe IE. — AdiJapan 04:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Of course. Sorry. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

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