Talk:List of Sinfonians

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WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities (Rated List-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon List of Sinfonians is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Image copyright problem with Image:Glennhughes villagepeople.jpg[edit]

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How are we determining what constitutes a "Famous Sinfonian"[edit]

How are we determining what constitutes a "famous Sinfonian"? Someone may be preeminent within their respective field but not with the general public. Someone such as Curuso or even Burrell may have been well known with the general public during their lifetimes but are not as widely recognized today. Any thoughts? - 768.210.193.172 (talk) 00:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. What really defines famous?
I think that we should limit this list to match one in the Themes For Brotherhood. It is already quite an exhaustive list. Also, once this is done, we may want to lock this article to prevent people from vandalizing this page. By vandalizing, I mean adding themselves as famous Sinfonians when they clearly are not. - (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that it's necessary to require notability for each person on the list of Notable Sinfonians here. If they can't have a Wikipedia article due to Wikipedia Notability policy, then I'd say they shouldn't be here. If they can but don't have a Wikipedia article, then they should still be safe to be listed here. Any thoughts guys? - Sc0ttkclark (talk) 22:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know if the following are Sinfonians[edit]

Timothy Mahr, John Corigliano, Roger Sessions - (talk) 01:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh oh, the biggest problem here is... References[edit]

There are no references for proof of the information contained in this article. Please denote references using this format:

The cat who knew the most, apparently knew about curiosity[1].

Then list the references at the bottom of the article like this:

  1. ^ SITE - Curiosity killed the cat

Please edit this section to see the actual wiki code behind it :-) - Sc0ttkclark (talk) 22:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Could an uploaded picture be used as a reference? The letter from Schulz is hanging in the school of music at FSU. Ayzmo (talk) 01:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

SInfonian Suggestion[edit]

One Sinfonian I believe should be listed (possbily under conductors or music educators) is Dr. Christopher Kiver (Alpha Zeta). He is currently the conductor of the Penn State Glee Club and Hi-Los. He also won two Grammy Awards (Best Choral Performance and Best Classical Album) for his conducting work in the 2006 Album "Bolcom: Songs of Innocence and of Experience: Requiem." (see 48th Grammy Awards). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tubajoe0 (talkcontribs) 08:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Big Changes to this Page[edit]

Over the next few weeks/months, I'm going to be seriously trimming down this page. Things that I'll be doing:

  • Verifying Fraternal membership. While this ability is available only to Sinfonians, I will do my best to screenshot the relevant pages and host said images (somewhere)
  • "Famous Sinfonians." Per a suggestion in a previous section (which I agree with) the "Famous" Brothers will only be those with Wikipedia articles to their name. References (for their notability) will come from those pages, as well as the Themes for Brotherhood. As a side note, I'll be commenting out the non-Wiki names, just to start off with, so that if there is any dispute it can be re-instated (easily).

Obviously if anyone wants to help out, or has other suggestions, I'm definitely open to them. Cheers. Primefac (talk) 22:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Great start on the new format. It is clear and easy to read. I would recommend using "Initiating Chapter" instead of "Original Chapter" as some were initiated into multiple chapters (Dykema for example. His original chapter was Alpha, but Phi is often cited as his chapter).
Regarding verifying fraternal membership, the national database is great to use, but it is not perfect. Rachmaninoff was recently determined to be an Alpha honorary from 1919, but he was not in the database to my knowledge. Pierre Monteaux was discovered to be an honorary of Alpha as well, and this was mentioned in a publication from the 1930s or 1940s. I would not use whether or not a brother has their own Wikipedia article or whether or not they are included in Themes for Brotherhood to determine whether they are worthy of inclusion. The Themes list has not always been accurate (Barber, Cage, for example). Vic Firth is not included in the current Themes list to my knowledge, but I don't think anyone would question his notability. Many of the names that I added that were not included in the Themes list were discovered through internet searches (Senator Lee of Oklahoma, from Mu Chapter, for example) or through old fraternity publications. The visual artist Hart was discovered this way. There was also an extensive list of honoraries published in the Sinfonia magazine published around 1939 that was a great resource.
Not everyone is going to recognize every name, but this list has the potential to be a good teaching tool and a mind stretcher. Flagler (Beta Gamma honorary) is a well known name in Florida and North Carolina, given the institutions that bear the name Flagler. Carroll Kearns, the US Congressman from Pennsylvania, may not be known in most of the country, but brothers from Pennsylvania will recognize the name.
Again, great start on the new format. I have been frustrated by the fact that some people have included themselves on the list (who are clearly not "famous"), but I would be very cautious about simply removing names based on their absence from the national database (it's not perfect), whether or not they are listed in Themes (its more thorough than it used to be, but still has room for growth), or whether or not they have their own Wikipedia page. About five years of research has gone into the list as it stood this summer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbheath (talkcontribs) 17:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, I'll just give you some of my thoughts w.r.t. the changes I've made.
  • I (unfortunately) have no control over the display boxes (I'd personally like to add some things) - this is a template by the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject. I have tried (where applicable, esp. with Nat'l Hon's) to include multiple chapters.
  • I should note that, at current, I have not actually deleted any names. Anyone who I have not been able to identify as a Sinfonian (which is, I believe, a grand total of 8 so far) I've made note of for to be checked later, and simply commented out their entry. This way, they can easily be moved around once I actually start doing some reference-checking (to bring the article in line with the references request currently sitting at the top of the page).
  • The same goes for Sinfonians without Wikipedia pages/have stubs - though this is because they don't meet the guidelines for Wikipedia's Notability requirements. Seeing as this is a list of "notable" Sinfonians, that seemed an appropriate litmus test. Also, I keep remembering the line "significant recognition in their respective fields" from the intro. Undoubtedly there are a few Brothers who fit both of these categories but I commented them out anyway, and they'll get added back in eventually.
I really am impressed at all the work that's gone into this page. It's quite a huge list! I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm making light of that effort when I go through making changes, and I'm certainly up for discussion on the changes I've been/will be making. My revisions are to bring the page in-line with the accepted convention for this type of page. Primefac (talk) 21:46, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Who are the 8 people you haven't been able to identify as a Sinfonian? (talk) 01:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, that number was a guesstimate, but they are: Leonard Rose, Elmer Bernstein, Arthur Foote, Gunther Schuller, William Steinberg, Leopold Stokowski, Vladimir Golschmann, Theodore Thomas (conductor), Charles Gates Dawes (wow, 9, pretty close). This is based entirely off the Sinfonian "Member Verify" app on their website (i.e. I'll try to do some more in-depth searching once the entire page has been re-done). There will probably be more (as I'm only 1/3 down the list), so I'll just update this page when I find them. Primefac (talk) 10:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The Surprise principle[edit]

Per WP:SURPRISE, I'm not sure that the chapter names should link to the universities. It makes it look like the individual chapters were notable enough for their own articles. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:04, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan, unless you want to change every single fraternity/sorority "List of" articles, I think this will probably stay as-is. I do not think it fits the true meaning behind SURPRISE that when someone clicks on "Alpha" they are taken to an article on the New England Conservatory. Primefac (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok, makes sense. Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Should honorary members be included?[edit]

I expected this to be a list of people who had been members of the fraternity, and later went on to do notable things. Instead the only connection I find on Wikipedia for some (e.g. John Phillip Souza and Bill Conti) is that they accepted an honorary membership. It would seem strange (and even promotional) to list as alumni people who have accepted honorary degrees for having given a speech at a university. Do the honorary members on this list have any association with the fraternity other than having accepted an honorary membership? If not, should they be included in this list?--Wikimedes (talk) 06:55, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikimedes, this list has both types (initiated as collegiates, and initiated as honorary). Initiating an honorary member is not as simple as having them show up for a speech or an honorary degree; it's an entire process that is given careful consideration and much debate. Some, such as the Alpha Alphas, may already be in the fraternity, but have done enough in their to merit the honour. Others may have never gone to university. Either way, it is the actions and the impact of the member that are more important - not if they happened to go to university and be initiated while they were there. Primefac (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

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