Talk:List of avatar claimants
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- 1 Buddha
- 2 Shirdi Sai Baba
- 3 J. Krishnamurti?
- 4 Merge Suggestion
- 5 Fair use rationale for Image:Samael Aun Weor4.jpg
- 6 The Sahaj reference
- 7 Lots of OR in the article
- 8 Jimmy Hendrix is considered by many to be an avatar
- 9 Colors
- 10 Buddha
- 11 New Category
- 12 Bhagwan Swaminarayan
- 13 Meher Baba
- 14 Image copyright problem with Image:Saw1.gif
- 15 Hitler?
- 16 Adi Da
- 17 Sathya Sai Baba
- 18 who have claimed and are considered by others
- 19 Original Research
- 20 Jesus Christ
- 21 Suggested move to Avatar Claimants
- 22 Not a list of divine people who one could assign the word avatar
- 23 Ongoing discussion on moving the term Avatar to primary topic
I have deleted the Image of Buddha from the list of avataras. The thought is repugnant to all buddhists. Buddha can never be an avatara of vishnu. Buddha was an ardent critic of Rigvedic religion ( now called as Hindu religion). I have also changed "Derived Religions" to " Other Religions" The earlier was a mischevious statement implying that other religions are derived from Hinduism.
The obstinate attempt to appropriate the name of Buddha by Bhramins (the priestly class of Hindus)is malicious. Gravely threatened by the onslaught of Buddhism which had almost destroyed the stranglehold of Bhramins over the society, they started usurping the Buddhas religion by calling him an Avatar of Visnu, in order to destroy buddhism,(Buddhism is highly critical of Bhramin supremacy and the foundation of hinduism, The Caste System). This started when the Bhramin commander, Piyushmitra shunga, of the last Mauryan Emperor,assasinated him and took over the throne. He systematically started the persecution of Buddhist monks leading to partial annhilation of buddhism in India. Read Babasaheb Ambedkars Thoughts on the same subject on http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19A.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20I.htm
- Buddha is called an Avatar of Lord Vishnu in the Bhagavata Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam). An article examining the proof that the Bhagavata Purana came long before Buddhism can be seen here: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/sb.htm#3
- In that Purana, it is stated that Lord Vishnu incarnated as Buddha in order to deceive the Atheists, not to guide man. Not all of the Avatars of Vishnu are for guiding man, some are for deceiving the evil-doers. Armyrifle 16:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, according to Buddhism, Buddha is an avatar, he was an avatar of a bodhisattva. The term 'avatar' occured in Buddhist literature before it ever occurred in Hindu literature, and it referred to bodhisattvas descending from Buddhist heavens to take births, sometimes to become Buddhas. --Simon D M (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Since when was budda born on the same day as charles manson?
- Oops. I'm surprised no one noticed that earlier. I created this by taking the table from the "considered to be deity" one and changing the names. I'll fix that.--T. Anthony 04:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Shirdi Sai Baba
Did Shirdi Sai Baba claim to be an avatar? That sounds doubtful to me. I have two books about him at home but I need a lot of time to check them. I remember him saying suggestive things like "Happy are those who believe their guru to be Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva" (or something like that) in the Shri Sai Satcharita (holy book of their followers) but this is not a direct claim, I think. I think however that the burden of proof is on the person who added the entry to provide citations. Andries 21:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- I simply copied what was listed in the article avatar to create this list. I really have no strong opinion of the authenticity of what was there. In fact I was hoping this would evolve to become noticeably different then the list there.--T. Anthony 14:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- Renamed the article with the same syntax as the List of people considered to be deities, for NPOV and consistency. Also added "Hinduism and derived religions" to broaden the scope for inclusion. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 05:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Was Jiddu Krishnamurti considered an avatar by the Theosophical Society and their followers? The J. Krishnamurti article says they "believed him to be a vehicle for a prophesied World Teacher (see Second Coming; Maitreya Buddha)" ... I went to that page and I guess that would technically mean he was considered a bhodisattva and not an avatar, but then he's not on the list of boddhisatvas.
I originally thought that maybe avatar specifically means an incarnation of a deity from the Vedic/Hindu religion but then I saw that the page says "and other religions" so I thought I would bring this up. Thanks! --220.127.116.11
Shouldn't Jesus Christ be included here, not to mention Lord Krishna and Bhagawan Nityananda MahaDave 21:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
- No. Jesus Christ is not technically considered an avatar from a Hindu perspective. Krishna is a traditional Hindu avatar, and the page lists the more nontraditional, less universally accepted, "avatars". As for Bhagawan Nityananda, I'm not sure. -- t c s 13:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Samael Aun Weor4.jpg
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The Sahaj reference
- Nice Simon, I concur that refference is rock solid. Nice find. Hohohahaha (talk) 16:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- I am sorry, by your own admission, you are a blocked user.... you don't get to play here anymore. Hohohahaha (talk) 20:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Lots of OR in the article
In some cases there is zero references to any sources. One should be careful with that. Please see WP:V and WP:NOTOR for every entry there should be reference to WP:RS. Wikidās ॐ 15:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Can editors please confirm which areas are sourced from what sources please? Wikidās ॐ 17:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Jimmy Hendrix is considered by many to be an avatar
- Your section was clearly outside the remit of the page (which you changed to justify your section). This is disruption. Stop it. --Simon D M (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Freelion, I saw the link you offered as "evidence". "Avatars" in the sense of Second Life or other virtual world spheres is not the scope of this page, therefore my mention of "nonsense". Also I am quite familiar with Jimi Hendrix and had he made such a claim seriously, I would know. Hoverfish Talk 12:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- If Freelion is genuinely confused, and not editing to make a point, he should refer to Avatar (disambiguation). --Simon D M (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly an important point, but are the colors supposed to alternate? Later additions to the table have clearly not been fixed, and the result is not what I call aesthetically pleasing :) Should we continue to alternate colors, since as the list gets longer it may be harder to update the table colors. --t c s 13:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "heterodox" part not only because it is unsourced but also because some traditional schools do accept Buddha as an avatara of Vishnu and instead consider Balarama avatara to be heterodox if included in the Dashavatara. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Buddha should really be removed from this list, since he is considered as a part of the Dashavatara by many Hindus, including some traditional schools. Unlike the others listed here, those who consider Buddha part of the Dashavatara are not a minority group. This was also discussed at the CfD for Category:People who have been considered avatars, where Buddha was also removed. For these reasons, I am removing Buddha from this list. --Shruti14 talk • sign 16:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The Category:People who have been considered avatars was created after discussion about inclusion of Swaminarayan (and possibly others of similar status) into such potential category as well as its associated list, List of people who have been considered avatars. The category is currently being considered for deletion. -- t c s 14:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Saw1.gif
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Nazi Ideologue Savitri Devi suggests in her book The Lightning and The Sun (and elsewhere) that Adolf Hitler was the 10th Avatar of Vishnu, Kalki. This is a belief that I suspect is still held by many Neo-Nazis. Perhaps it warrants inclusion in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I am removing this entry because in the quote by him given as a reference he is clearly stating that he does NOT wish to be mistaken for saying he is God or making a claim of his own Divinity. "By avatarically revealing and confessing my Divine status to one and all, I am not indulging in self-appointment, or illusions of grandiose Divinity. I am not claiming the status of the Creator God." (Adi Da ~ Da Love-Ananda Gita First word , Page 21 , 2nd Edition 2000) If someone wants to put it back they should add a quote where his state as incarnation of God is affirmed by him, not denied. LittleDoGooder (talk) 21:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
LittleDoGooder, do you understand why this article is being kept separate from List of people who have been considered deities? I daresay "avatarically revealing and confessing my Divine status" amounts to being an "avatar claimant".
- It's 2015, I added Adi Da , not having seen this Talk page; instantly reverted by User:Dazedbythebell "(Please replace with a reliable reference." There are several. Such as the quote above, as Dbackmann says, "By avatarically revealing and confessing my Divine status to one and all," , which He IS saying He's doing, He disclaims " self-appointment", "illusions", or being "Creator". He IS claiming to be an Avatar. Also, on Adi Da, wikipedia article, 2nd paragraph, there is another avatar claim with reference. Also, on http://adidam.org we see his latest, and presumably last name change is "Avatar Adi Da Samraj" (Samraj == Greatest King). Is that sufficient? GangofOne (talk) 04:02, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Sathya Sai Baba
I see in the main article it says that he says he is the avatar. But so far no one has supplied a reference for where he said this. I don't doubt it. I merely am seeking someone to help to find a reference for a quote by him saying this. The reference that was there had no mention of the word avatar. I will continue to look also. LittleDoGooder (talk) 21:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
- Here is a link to Sathya's discourses and also Wikiquote. I have looked and can find no statement by him in which he uses the word "avatar" or "avatara." Also no follower has come forward with a citation for this claim by him. Redletternight (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- His precise claim is as follows: Claims that his is a "human form in which every divine entity, every divine principle, that is to say, all the names and forms ascribed by man to God, are manifest." (From the constantly quoted 17 May 1968 discourse The Revelation, VI, 210-213.) No mention of the word "avatar" appears in the discourse. Careful reading reveals that Sathya, at least here, makes no claim by any particular Sanskrit term, neither using the word satguru nor avatar. Thus he could be saying any number of things. To make an assumption of what term he is claiming for himself is purely speculative, unless a better source than this can be found. My own research has turned up nothing, but I'm still looking. Redletternight (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
who have claimed and are considered by others
The wording has been slightly changed from "have been considered to be by others" to "claimed and are considered to be by others" to not include suggestions such as Jimmy Hendrix and Adolph Hitler who never claimed they were avatars but there are some people in the world who have written things like that. The older criteria could include almost anyone. Redletternight (talk) 19:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Please try to give references that include the term "avatar" or "avatara." Interpretations of statements to "mean" avatar, without giving citations by published sources amounts to original research. Note, for example that Nirmala Srivastava does not herself claim to be an avatar. Redletternight (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Some have suggested this. But the Christians like to draw a distinction. See Incarnation (Christianity). The Incarnation is not a recurring phenomena like the avatar concept.
Suggested move to Avatar Claimants
I suggest this Wikipedia List be renamed (moved) to 'List of Avatar Claimants.'
- This is more consistent with other similar Wikipedia Lists such as List of messiah claimants and List of Buddha claimants.
- There are likely to be published comparisons to the avatar concept for so many people who have never claimed to be the avatar. As named above, Jesus Christ, Adolph Hitler, and even Jimmy Hendrix, have been described as avatars in published literature. So the List title "List of people who have been considered avatars" is so vague as to be problem producing.
- Many of the names on this list that have appeared at times are people who never suggested they were avatars or the avatara, and in fact in some cases expressely cautioned against people mistaking their discourses as implying this (Adi Da is a good example: "By 'avatarically revealing and confessing my Divine status to one and all', I am not indulging in self-appointment, or illusions of grandiose Divinity. I am not claiming the status of the Creator God.").
- Some of the people who have at times been listed were put here by people who were merely trying to interpret the meaning of the person's words about themselves, and also interpret the meaning of "avatara." This winds up becoming original research by necessity. Sometimes it comes down to attempting to syncretize words, such as God-man or messiah or Incarnation (Christianity) with the Hindu concept of the recurring avatars. This attempt at syncretism is itself original research. See Wikipedia:No original research.
- By changing the name to List of Avatar Claimants you are going to have a much shorter list that is much easier to verify.
- By leaving it as it is, the list stands the chance of becoming a meaningless subjective list of opinions, interpretations, and original research.
- The notion of calling someone an avatar in its original Hindu context is highly complicated because in Hinduism everyone is an 'incarnation' of divinity. In fact, in the Advaita branch of Hinduism, every atman (soul) is really One with and identical to "Brhaman" (the Creator God). Thus in a sense everyone is an avatar. So it is extremely easy to misinterpret the meaning of an Indian saint's words to mean he is saying he is the or a avatar in a unique sense. This is helped by including only those who specifically claimed to be avatar or avatara by that terminology. Otherwise interpretations are a little suspect. In Hinduism we are all, in truth, one and identical with God. But we are not all avatars.
- Support. This list is an ill-defined mess and it's only getting messier. There are currently no clear criteria for how you get on the list. Considered? By whom? Claiming to be Avatar is NOT the criteria. See the AFD discussion -- this is the list of persons that OTHERS consider to be Avatar (except that it must not include any claimants in the Dasavatara list and it must not include Buddha). Maybe I consider Sathya Sai Baba to be Avatar. Can I put him back on, based on my say so? Maybe I think my little sister is Avatar, although I doubt she knows the meaning of the word. Also Strom Thurmond and Karl Marx. Can I put them on as well? Is a specific number of believers required to make the cut? Or is it only an avowal of personal sincerity. Changing the criteria to a personal claim to the title brings everything into clarity. BIG SUPPORT for rename. --nemonoman (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
There may be a need for an administrator if this if this is what people elect to do as there is already a redirect at "List of avatar claimants."I now see there should be no problem. See Wikipedia:Move#Moving over a redirect. Redletternight (talk) 18:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Support Deletion would be better. If I claim that I'm an avatar, then .... no, better not do that :-) Priyanath talk 04:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
- I see that I'm a bit late for the discussion, but I do support this change. I have to say, though, that this list is becoming more problematic. --Shruti14 talk • sign 01:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Not a list of divine people who one could assign the word avatar
This is not a list of people who have said things that could be interpreted to mean they are avatars by extrapolating on the meaning of their words. It's a list of people who have said they are avatars using that word. If one were to extrapolate what is meant, for instance, by "incarnation of the divine" then Jim Jones and David Koresh would be on this list. The parameters of the criteria had to be narrowed because of the temptation to interpret what people have said which would cause the list to degenerate into original research and be subject to endless debate. Dazedbythebell (talk) 14:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand that this list is going to include anyone who was ever verifiably claimed to be an "avatar" of some deity (usually Hindu) in any verifiable and quotable source. The purpose of article renaming isn't to reduce the scope of the article so much that a "list" article ends up with two or three items. We don't need a separate article for "here's two people who said they were avatars", if that's what this is supposed to be, we can just make it a very short section at List of people who have been considered deities. The only point of keeping this article separate is the more ambiguous or wider sense of the term "avatar" compared to "deity". --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see any consensus that the purpose of this list was to be "more ambiguous or wider sense of the term 'avatar' compared to 'deity.'" You write above, I understand that this list is going to include anyone who was ever verifiably claimed to be an "avatar" of some deity. How did you come to this understanding. It is the opposite of the discussions above, that wished to narrow the scope to something that can be verified. If you wish this list to be deleted, then please propose that in the proper way. I personally would not oppose a deletion. I agree the list serves very little purpose. You could also propose another name change that is closer to what you would like it to include. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe I should summarize what the consensus was for the name change. A list of people who have ever lived that others have claimed to be an "avatar" in some sense has the potential to be limitless. There are verifiable published sources that some people have claimed Hitler, Manson, and Jimmi Hendrix to have been avatars. So it was decided to include only those notable people who clearly and specifically made this claim about themselves. Secondly, it was thought that to include people who made claims about themselves that could be interpreted to mean they were avatars also was potentially limitless. The reason is that in the East especially, the conception is that we are all in fact Brahman. Thus in a sense we all are the deity descended - thus an avatar in one sense. So any teacher of advaita vedanta, for example, will say he is the deity descended into physical form. This is true of all of us, and that is the point of that expression. So it is very easy to interpret such statements to be equal to claims of being 'the avatara.' Even if they say they are Vishn, Shiva, or Brahman, or all three, this still is true of all people in one sense in eastern philosophy. Yet the mythological appearance of 'the avatara' is a separate concept. And I can't quite explain why that is. I don't know enough about it. So this is why the list was narrowed to people who make the claim of avatarhood using the word "avatar." In many of the cases that werer previously listed, no reference could be found that they ever said they were the avatara. One, in fact, actually went out of his way to claifiy that he was not making that claim and shouldn not be misunderstood as saying that. Yet his name was still included, with this exact quote given as the reference that he referred to himself as avatar. The point is not to have a big scope or a small scope, but to have a clear uniform scope. If it is too vague then there is no way to have a scope at all. It becomes a veritable list of opinions and potential quarrels. I suggest either staying to a clear scope that precludes argument or simply remove the list. In a way it's a silly list. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)