Talk:List of best-selling music artists/Archive 14

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Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15

The Doors

According to the documentary When You’re Strange, The Doors sold more than 80 million albums and continue to sell more than one million albums a year to this day. I did some quick verification and the RIAA has 74.5 million in certified sales for them, which represents only sales in the United States I believe so the worldwide total should be more. If anyone wants to double check this and add The Doors to the list, look at these sources: [1] [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.127.185.209 (talk) 13:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure where you are getting the 74.5 million in certified sales for RIAA as all I see in RIAA's database is 35,050,000 million (singles, albums and videos combined). RIAA's certified albums sales for The Doors stands at 32.5 million, and plus three singles in the database here (each Gold single counts as 1,000,000 because singles awards before 1989 were: Gold=1,000,000 and Platinum=2,000,000), plus 550,000 in videos sales. I'll look at their certifications in other markets' to to see where their sales should stand.--Harout72 (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

U.K. Sales

The UK sales for some of the artists at the top (mainly The Beatles and Elvis Presley) seem to be surprisingly low, I am almost certain that the Beatles have sold more than 5.5 million records - She Loves You alone has sold almost 2 million and I want to Hold Your Hand, Can't Buy Me Love, Day Tripper and I Feel Fine have all sold over 1 million, they make over 5.5million easily on their own, then Sgt. Peppers and 1 combined make over 7m, adding up to 12.5m before all their other singles and albums, which would have sold much, much more. I have found this source (although I'm not sure if it is very reliable) telling me that they have sold 20.8 million records worldwide, it also says that Elvis Presley has sold 20m. The other artists are probably right, but the Beatles and Elvis, especially the Beatles, are way off. I'm sure that even if the provided source isn't reliable, there must be some source that shows that Both artists have sold much more in the UK than shown

The aforementioned source --> http://everyhit.com/record2.html

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.140.159 (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, both The Beatles and Elvis Presley and even ABBA have sold a lot more than the BPI's certification database is able to support. BPI's certification scheme was established in 1973, whereas all of the mentioned artists/bands had sold big portion of their materials by then. The certification-figures in the tables are based on the number of Platinum/Gold awards, whereas everyhit.com indicates total actual sales figures for albums/singles rather than Platinum/Gold certification awards; therefore, we cannot use those figures.--Harout72 (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson

Hi. According to various users and MTV interviews, Marilyn Manson has sold over 11 million albums in the United States, and his worldwide sales are over 68 million. For someone as famous as Manson this number seems a little low, however putting this aside, I think he should be added to the list since the list starts at 50 million and over. Manson is (United States)(1994-present)(Shock Rock/Industrial Metal). (Ethmarns) 10:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

According to RIAA, Manson has sold some 4.5 million albums in US and some 150,000 videos, no major sales on his singles. The 4.5 million in certified sales could translate into some 5.5 million or 6 million in actual sales but not 11 million. Manson doesn't seem to have had major sales in UK, Germany or France, and those are the largest markets that generate most of the sales. I would say his worldwide total should be some 20-25 million (singles, albums, videos combined), but nowhere close to 50 million.--Harout72 (talk) 15:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Madonna

Why Madonna record sales are 200 million? Record sales are: albums + singles & videos - combined.

Madonna has sold 200 million albums + about 170 million singles & videos. It can be easily checked even through Wikipedia's articles on Madonna's discography and other multiple sources.

So the exact number seems to be 370 million records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princcce (talkcontribs) 08:18, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Best regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princcce (talkcontribs) 08:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I have verified Madonna's claimed figures by going over her certified sales. Her available certified sales based on Albums, Singles, Videos support 157.6 million records in certified sales. Meaning that Madonna's actual sales could reach 200 million and perhaps slightly surpass that mark, but it will never even reach 250 million records. That said, from my experience I have noticed that number of news services as well as music industry related associations may use the term Album when referring to artists' sales, but I assure you that they talk about all records (singles, albums, videos).--Harout72 (talk) 19:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply. As far as I undestand from the article, Abba has 54.1 million certified sales, Queen - 85.8, Michael Jackson - 149.6. And all of them are put in the top of the list. So why Madonna with her 157.6 million certified sales (which is more than Abba's, Queen's and MJ's) is placed behind them? Where is the logic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princcce (talkcontribs) 03:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a good question and let me try and explain it carefully. If you please look at the footnotes below the table which contains all top selling artists, you will see that lot of countries have begun issuing certifications after ABBA (for example) had already done selling most of their materials. The same thing happens with Elvis Presley, The Beatles and even Queen. Now, when calculating certified sales, I also look at the entire European continent's IFPI database, which has been launched in 1996. And I avoid double counting by subtracting the figures that I find in each market's database from IFPI (Europe) figures which represent entire certified figure for Europe (I hope this makes sense). As for Michael Jackson, he has sold at least 75-80% of his records before 1995 or 1996 (before IFPI Europe database was launched). Therefore, I don't have the luxury to look at his entire European sales, since several notable markets in Europe including Italy, do not offer certification databases, and the 149 million in certified sales (for Jackson) is bases on all the certified sales each market contains respectively. On the other hand, Madonna has released some of her best selling albums including Ray of Light after 1996, which gives me the advantage to see remainder of her albums' sales which cannot be found in avaiable markets' databases. By the way, have you seen the figures which you have mentioned above Madonna has sold 200 million albums + about 170 million singles & videos or you are simply assuming? If yes, please provide the source, I personally have not come across anything that large for Madonna.--Harout72 (talk) 05:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Speaking about Madonna sales I used such resources as Wikipedia itself, for example. There is a page called “Madonna albums discography” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_albums_discography and pages for each album like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_%28album%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like_a_Virgin

For some albums after 2004 I used http://www.mediatraffic.de/

So albums worldwide sales (in millions) are:

1983 – Madonna – 10 1984 – Like a virgin – 21 1986 – True blue – 24 1987 – Who’s that girl – 6 1987 – You can dance – 5 1989 – Like a prayer – 13 1990 – I’m breathless – 7 1990 – The Immaculate collection – 30 1992 – Erotica – 5 1994 – Bedtime stories – 6 1995 – Something to remember - 9 1996 – Evita – 11 1998 – Ray of light – 20 2000 – Music – 11 2001 – GHV2 - 7 2003 – American life – 4 2003 – Remixed & revisited – 0,5 2005 – Confessions on a dancefloor – 7.4 2008 – Hard candy – 3.8 2009 – Celebration – 1,4

TOTAL ALBUMS SALES – 202 million

Figures seem to be quite real and not exaggerated.

As you see Madonna released most of her successful albums before 1996, when IFPI was launched (like Michael Jackson did ,for example).

Also I found the following: “According to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, Madonna has sold more than 200 million albums worldwide” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_%28entertainer%29

I’ve searched IFPI web-site for such information. There is a mentioning of Madonna: “Enduringly popular 'Queen of Pop' Madonna has seen sales of her latest album Confessions On A Dancefloor go from strength to strength, as it also gains its fourth Platinum Europe Award since its release last November. The disco-inspired album is the eleventh studio offering from the American, who has sold over 200 million albums worldwide throughout her illustrious career.” http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_news/plat_month_20060913.html

So only albums sales are already 202 million worldwide.

As for singles & videos & live CD’s – total will be about 170 millions - 75 singles, from which 37 are top-10 in Billboard main chart, Madonna is currently the highest ranking solo artist on the “Billboard Hot 100 All-Time Top Artists” as well as having more number-one singles in the United Kingdom than any other female artist (5-th overall). - 9 Concert Tour Videos, 4 Video compilations, 3 Live CD’s

I can provide you with the sales numbers for each single and live CD, if you need – but this will be a huge list of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princcce (talkcontribs) 05:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

First, Meddiatraffic.com is as unreliable as a source gets, you can verify it yourself by asking the folks at WP:RSN. Second, do not use wikipedia pages to support your arguments. And finally, please provide a reliable source which actually states that Madonna has sold 200 million albums plus 170 million singles, and by reliable source I mean something like CNN, FOX News etc. and not something like Mediatraffic. As for the IFPI source, that happens to be one of the the sources Madonna's figure is currently supported on the list, and I wonder why IFPI would only mention her album sales and leave out such a huge figure like 170 million for her singles alone. By the way, Live CDs are considered albums; therefore, already included within the stated figures by reliable sources. Unless, you have figures published by reliable sources, it is pointless to continue this discussion.--Harout72 (talk) 15:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Guinness World Records 2011 she has sold over 275 million albums. Quote:

Top-Selling Female Recording Artist Madonna (USA) holds the record for album sales up to December 2009 of 75 million in the USA and 200 million abroad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.101.121.113 (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

You should also take into consideration that 275 million albums stated by Guiness are only albums. Let me explain why: Madonna has 64 million certified albums by RIAA. Together with singles & videos - this number reaches 87 million of certified sales by RIAA. It can be easily checked. So if Guinness states 75 mill. albums in USA - that means only albums (the real album sales, when certified are 64 mill) So 275 million albums - are only albums, without singles and videos. That means that total record sales will easily surpass 300 million mark.

Another proof that Madonna sold more than 300 million records is "The Independent" source. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/queen-of-the-comeback-564522.html Thr article of 24 May 2004 states that Madonna has sold more than 250 million records. After 2004 she released her successful "Confessions on a dancefloor" album, together with 4 singles, one of them is "Hung up" which reached n.1 in 45 countries (Guiness record) and sold about 5-9 millions. "Hard candy" album with 3 singles, one of them is succesful "4 munites" (2.75 millions in USA). "Celebration" greatest hits. Live CD/DVD's "I'm going to tell you a secret", "Confessions Tour", "Sticky & Sweet Tour". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princcce (talkcontribs) 08:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Black Sabbath

Black Sabbath have sold more than 100 million records not 50 million please correct that. links to prove it are : news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8075397.stm ; wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/7783. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.149.49.230 (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Barbra Streisand

She should be included in the top section where the certified sales are recorded, especially given ABBA's inclusion. ABBA only has 52.3 million records certified... Barbra has 71.5 million certified in the USA alone. Her discography page suggests she has 200 million certified worldwide. 68.33.80.143 (talk) 03:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

New Kids On the Block

This is a list of New Kids On the Block's certified sales in some of the major markets:

Since IFPI started counting European sales only since 1996, a few million copies may have gone uncertified. In addition, sales in the other major markets like Austria, Switzerland etc may give a few million more copies. At the maximum, New Kids On The Block may have sold 40-50 million copies. I don't see how they have sold 70 million copies even if a single source supports it. -KingdomHearts25 (talk) 09:45, July 11 2010 (UTC)

I personally would look at all the available certifications, you have left Germany's certified videos out (75,000, not a big difference), but for US, I'm counting only 22 million (albums, singles, videos combined).
US certified sales 22,000,000
German certified sales: 825,000
France: 600,000 Albums, 325,000 Singles, 1.4 million Actual sales
Dutch certified sales 50,000
Austrian certified sales 100,000
Swiss certified sales 50,000
Even though, we don't have the luxury of knowing what Australia's and Japan's certified sales are, I too believe New Kids on the Block could not have sold over 50 million (maximum 55 million) records worldwide. I'd agree to change their estimated sales if there is a reliable source that could support 50 million. Otherwise, we should leave them where they are as our focus should be on those artists on this list whose certified sales and actual sales are really far apart.--Harout72 (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


Edit request from 68.188.158.152, 21 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

QUEEN

I noticed that Queen has sold more records than Abba, yet they are lower on the list and are being stated to have an estimated lower sale of records. This should be fixed to avoid confusion.

68.188.158.152 (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

ABBA with 370 million in sales VS. Queen's 300 million records, with ABBA higher on the list than Queen, I must say, I'm not sure I follow you.--Harout72 (talk) 06:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 213.94.149.114, 23 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} According to this website Oasis have sold an estimated 70 million albums, the given estimated album sales given on this page currently is 50 million http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/music/reviews/some-might-say-oasis-are-still-world-beaters-after-slane-gig-14351086.html#

213.94.149.114 (talk) 02:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Done Dabomb87 (talk) 03:13, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Michael Jackson worldwide sales

Ive updated Michael Jackson worldwide album sales from 750 million to 780 million world wide. Another editor (Harout72) has undone it and decides that this should be discussed on the talk page. Thats fair. ill just present the facts.

its estimated that Mj sold over 750 million before he died.

Since he died he has sold an estimated 31 million albums worldwide since he died which would bring the total to over 780 million albums, here are the facts. everyone from the wall street Journal to CBS News supports it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704588404575124023860735864.html

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100316/entertainment/entertainment_us_music_jackson_sony?printer=1

http://www.hollywood.com/news/Sony_Enters_7_Year_250M_Deal_with_Jackson_Estate/6833897

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-michael-jackson16-2010mar16

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/michael-jackson-estate-makes-biggest-recording-deal/story?id=10118364


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/15/entertainment/main6302318.shtml

just a few of many credible sources

Buffaloxoldiar (talk) 00:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok...while you do have reliable sources supporting your cliam that MJ has sold 31 million since his death, none of the sources (or at least the ones that are considered reliable for the purposes of this article, as they were the only ones I checked) claim that MJ has actually sold 780 million. Without that, such an edit is considered original research; we will need a reliable source claiming 780 million before we can upgrade the figure. Hitthat (talk) 07:25, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Why would he need an article to verify 780 million sold if its a known fact that Jackson has an estimated sales of over 750 million pre-demise and credible articles verify another 31 million sold since death all you have to do is add both estimated numbers that comes from credible sources and figure out that its over 780 million sorry hithat but that reason you gave is invalid all the evidence points to final tally over 780 million. same difference. Ill have agree with buffaloxoldiar anything else seems biased as the evidence clearly supports the fact of 780 million plus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hubbletelescope2 (talkcontribs) 08:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

While it is very possible that Jackson has sold 31 million records after his death as stated by some of the prestigious news services as Wall Street Journal and LA Times for example, it is important to note that none of those highly reliable sources above does actually mention a total worldwide sales. It should also be noted that because we have used CNN's article supporting the 750 million estimated figure within Jackson's table, it does not immediately mean that Jackson, in fact, has sold 750 million and not 350 million (the latter of which is much closer to his certified sales), meaning that Jackson's worldwide, adding the 31 million on the top of already estimated worldwide sales, could equally translate into 380 million. The inclusion of the 750 million was the result of the long and tiring discussion that took place in the mid of 2009, which was only done to bring editors of two sides (those that leaned towards 350 million and those that leaned towards 750 million in sales) to consensus and nothing more. In case anyone has missed the discussion which I'm referring to, feel free to go over it here and please do not start similar discussions here again. Thanks.--Harout72 (talk) 15:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I just read both sides of this discussion and i gotta say i find it odd that this is even being discussed, seriously. If CNN has confirmed that Michael sold 750 million and The Wall Street Journal says he sold another 31 million since death why would you need another credible source to confirm that the estimated sales is over 780 million.If you add two credible sources sales figure in this case 750 + 31 it makes it a credible 780 million plus, thats simple mathematics. Regardless of how much he sold, wether it be an estimated 300 million copies 31 million would be added to that, same for 350 million 31 million added to that or 750 million 31 million added to that . What he sold since death has to be added to what he sold before death, from what ive read he was the largest selling artist of the last year. it would be disingenuous. We are editors not politicians lets not take something this straight forward and make it complicated, that's congress job.Knighttrain (talk) 03:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Knighttrain, if you are going to read the archived discussion, please read it entirely. Also, in case you have not noticed, CNN has published both 350 million and 750 million on the same day both of which are being used on this list to support both figures, and only one of them happens to be close to Jackon's certified sales and that's 350 million. Lastly, we are not in a business of adding or subtracting figures here at wikipedia, we are after verifiability, since you're are not familiar with the term Knighttrain, I suggest you go over WP:V. --Harout72 (talk) 04:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The table states Jackson was active from 1964 to 2009, but back then in the sixties Jackson wasnt a solo artist but lead singer of the The Jackson 5. So either the sales reported in this table should be accumulated (band + solo carrer) in accordance with the period referenced or 1964 should be changed to 1971. thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.12.38.214 (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Just to point out, the idea of not doing your "own research" when it comes to fitting two pieces of info about an artist's sales is NOT adhered to with Elvis Presley... Two source, one claiming sales of 300 million whilst alive, another claiming 300 million after death cite a 600 million title... Jackson's sales should be allowed to be displayed at least as 780 million with the countless 750 million articles out there (and mentioned at the top of this section) and the many articles showing Jackson's sales of 29-31 million sales in 2009. (And on aside, Elvis' source of 1 billion sold is poor at best, it claims higher sales than The Beatles with no source itself; it's not accurate when taken into comparisant with the other articles all claiming roughly the 600 million mark; Jackson should be considered for movement beneath The Beatles as second best selling act of all time, as this is clearly the case.) Mc8755 (talk) 02:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Mc8755, perhaps, we should consider adding Jackson's 29-31 million posthumously on the top of 350 million which clearly seems a lot more realistic based on what Jackson's certified sales suggest. As pointed out countless times, had Jackson really sold 750 million records as suggested by countless sources, who seem to have copied that the same figure from each other without doing their own homework, his certified sales would have been at least 450-500 million. Especially, taking the fact under consideration that Jackson has come into the music scene when almost every single developed country in the world did already have certification-awards based markets. Which, I must point out for the 100th time, did not exist during Presley and even The Beatles. --Harout72 (talk) 03:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

  • That seems fair enough for now, considering there is no reliable source for a collective figure yet, but when it comes to certified sales against predicted total sales, Jackson's 140 odd million are closer to 750 million than that of Presley's 190 odd million to the 600 million - 1 billion mark, who has at least half of his sales in a time when charting in place. Mc8755 (talk) 11:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Mc8755, you are not reading closely. During when Presley was recording and releasing his materials most developed countries in the world (with an exception of US) did not have certification schemes established yet; therefore, most of Presley's materials have gone uncertified. However, that is not the case with Jackson as every single developed market (that is responsible for generating most of the sales in the world) had already established certification-award schemes. I have posted immediately below the tables all the establishment years for those markets who currently offer certification-databases. By the way, most of The Beatles' and also ABBA's sales have gone uncertified too.--Harout72 (talk) 15:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I didn't mean to single Presley out, I understand what you're saying. But he died in 77, so his "300 million" sold posthumously would have been at a time when most developed countries had certifiable records or sales. And at the same time, Jackson's time spent in the Jackson 5 group would have avoided certifiable sales in many countries in the sixties too. I totally understand that The Beatles and ABBA are in the same boat, and let's face it, the 1 billion mark seems a little high in "estimations" for any recording act, but I just wanted to emphasize that Jackson's sales seem to be lagging when it comes to inclusion of the recent events leading to the surge in sales for his material... Mc8755 (talk) 15:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
We are to look at Jackson's sales as a solo artist and not combine his sales of both solo career and sales of Jackson 5. However, his solo career's sales would include his occasional collaborations with other artists, which are tracks that one could also find on Jackson's solo albums. Presley's certified sales which I have gathered myself from databases (posted within the table) clearly surpasses Jackson's certified sales, whereas good portion of Presley's materials have not been captured by most markets due to having been released before '73 (for UK, France) or '75 (for Germany, Canada), not to mention that many other markets began issuing their certifications much later than that, for example: Argentina (1980), Switzerland (1989), Sweden (1987), Austria (1990), Brazil (1990), Mexico (1999) etc. So in the end, while, I too believe that like Jackson's 750 million, the figures for most artists are inflated for promotion reasons including The Beatles' and Presley's, Presley by all means comes in as the second best selling music artist in history.--Harout72 (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

ALSO, WHY NOT ADD 100 MILLION SINCE HE WAS IN THE JACKSON 5 SAME AS PAUL MCCARTNEY SOLO AND WITH BEATLES, OR FOR EXAMPLE JUSTINE TIMBERLAKE SOLO PLUS N SYNC AND GEORGE MICHAEL SOLO THEN WITH WHAM!!. THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.249.240.227 (talk) 23:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I have changed Elvis Presley's sources with The New York Times and The Independent, claiming directly 600 million. So, it is not "own research" anymore :) Bluesatellite (talk) 03:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

As the sales figures refer to Jacksons SOLO carreer, "1964" has to be changed to "1971"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.12.9.93 (talk) 05:04, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Artists that should be listed

http://www.britannica.com/psychedelic/textonly/beachboys.html This site explains that The Beach Boys have sales of about 70 million albums. Also, I couldn't find any reliable sources, but Beyonce as a solo artist has supposedly sold 50-70 million records. Can someone clarify? Pyramid Productions (talk) 14:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I have verified Beyonce's actual sales with certifications, and she seems to have sold over 50 million records; therefore, I have already put her up on the list about a week ago. As for The Beach Boys, the 70 million in album sales stated by Britanica is not realistic, I have gone over their certifications and their sales outside the US has not been very strong; in other words, at least 60-70% of their sales seems to have been generated by the US market per certifications. Here are their available certifications:
And these are the only markets that The Beach Boys have certifications from. I believe they may have sold some 60-70 million records (albums, singles, videos combined) but not 70 million albums only.--Harout72 (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Lawrie manc, 4 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Hi, I was just reading this page, and noticed an inaccuracy. The band 'Oasis' have sold almost 80 million records as of now, not 50 million. You should also note that the artist is releasing another album of greatest hits this year, having sold out on pre-order on many retail sites, including play.com, which stocked more copies that a lot of other retaillers put together. So please look out for increases in sales in the near future. If you wish to confirm this, or to obtain any more information, please contact the Billboard.com Editor, Jessica Letkemann at Jessica.Letkemann@billboard.com.


Lawrie manc (talk) 17:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

 Question: Can you provide a reliable source to back up this claim? Otherwise the change can not be made. SpigotMap 17:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done Their page says 70 mil, so that's what I will change it to (with a source). If you can provide a reliable source that says 80 mil, re-request an edit. CTJF83 pride 19:04, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
We've had a long discussion about the sales of Oasis as well as about the very article by Belfast Telegraph, please refer to the discussion at Archive 12. Please do not replace the current source with Belfast Telegraph as the certified sales for Oasis do not even support anything close to 50 million in actual sales. Thank you.--Harout72 (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

IRON MAIDEN Iron maiden has sold more albums than 70 million they have sold around 100 million so what's going on there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.12.166 (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

For Iron Maiden's 100 million, please refer to the following archived discussion here.--Harout72 (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Mariah Carey

Mariah Carey is the best-selling female artist and she has sold at least 200 million albums, not 175. Please change that !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.121.104.207 (talk) 01:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It has been discussed in Mariah Carey talk page that she has not sold 200 million, although you can find a few reliable sources for that claim, like this. That number came in 2008 from her former label, Sony Music, which is already known for inflating the sales figure of artists such as Michael Jackson. According to Mariah Carey current and official record company Island Def Jam / Universal Music Group), in their press release in 2009, Mariah Carey has sold 175 million, including albums, singles, and videos worldwide ([3], [4]). Mariah's official website also said the same.[5] Baratayuda (talk) 03:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Country flags

Would it be possible to add flags to this, to be bring it in line with other "best-selling" lists...? It would be a great help. Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.49.108.232 (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

We had some inserted but they were removed by an administrator for redundancy.--Harout72 (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Where is Britney Spears?

I remember seeing her on this list all the time, and now she's gone. she has to be at least near 90 million units (second highest selling artist of this decade). u should not exclude her by all means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.38.214 (talk) 22:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

She was never removed.--Harout72 (talk) 00:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
She is under the "100-199" section. She was upgraded from her previous section as her sales have increased and the sources were old.--PeterGriffinTalk 01:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Madonna (again...)

Well, as the earlier discussions about Madonna's record sales that only include the album sales, I've found Madonna's new and recent source from The Independent in 13 January 2010, claiming 300 million "records". Since her available certification numbers are higher than those of Michael Jackson, ABBA, or Queen (as discussed above), I have been adding this claim to this list without consensus firstly. I hope there will be no complaint because I feel that to support this figure her certification database is much bigger than most of artists here (except The Beatles, Elvis Presley) Thank you Bluesatellite (talk) 04:13, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree on placing her there. I think we should leave it as "Guiness" lists it at 250 million.--PeterGriffinTalk 04:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Guinness never claimed 250 million, please show me the book scan!! Bluesatellite (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Thats what Legolas said. And I don't agree, so you need to provide a consensus to make such changes.--PeterGriffinTalk 04:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
OK, I'm not going to do warring with Mariah Carey fan here. Please wait the others before refusing my contributions. I'm waiting Harout72's comment, since he is the most experienced editor in this article. Thank you Bluesatellite (talk) 04:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Trust me, an obsessed "Madonna" fan is much worst and annoying. I asked nicely to do things amicably, and you choose to accuse and be rude. That is why I prefer to not work with editors like you. You need a consensus! Please bring it all the the Madonna page, it will be discussed there.--PeterGriffinTalk 04:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I would not put Madonna within the table along with other five artists/bands just yet. I believe the 300 million in record sales claimed by Ireland's Independent is inflated by at least 50 million records. Yes, Madonna's overall sales is quite impressive, no doubt about it, but 250 million figure in actual sales is the most I'd use for Madonna. I understand that Madonna's certified sales from available markets goes abreast with that of Jackson's, but do we really need to lie to ourselves by another inflated sales figure. The only reason I decided to construct a table and place, initially, The Beatles, Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson in it, was only to end the endless and ugly dispute that took place last summer over Jackson's 750 million figure (it can be found here). I suggest we approach logically and intelligently, and accept the fact the Madonna's 149.9 million in certified sales which I have from all markets combined would never turn into 300 million in actual sales just like that. Had Madonna's truly sold 300 million records, her total certified sales from these same markets would have been over 200 million. By the way, we need to include all certified sales from all markets respectively, not just US and UK. But again, I don't think Madonna should be up in the table. At least she should be removed for now and placed back in the section of 200-299 before we can come to a final decision. --Harout72 (talk) 15:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Well Harout you explained that really well, I totally agree and don't think 300 is an accurate figure. She should stay in the 200-299 for now.--PeterGriffinTalk 16:13, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok then, let's go ahead and move her back where she was before.--Harout72 (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Well Harout72, I'm speechless now. You asked source, I give The Independent article from 2010, not fansite. You wanted certifications, she also has that. Please see again the previous discussion where you said Madonna has 157.6 million based on certifications, that number is higher than those of Michael Jackson, ABBA, or Queen. Well, I can still see at the top of this page "Artist without sufficient certifications to support claimed figures may not be added to the list". I give a source, she has huge certifications as well, so WHAT is the problem now??? If she can not stayed there, so why Michael Jackson can! Even with claim of fantastic 750 million, but less certifications than Madonna. Really, I can't accept it. Bluesatellite (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok let's please keep our composure here as we don't want this to turn into another Michael Jackson type of discussion. We are just discussing, we have not made any final decisions yet. Let me just point out a few points as far as ABBA's and Queen's total available certified sales goes. Both ABBA and Queen have begun their career in early '70s when much of the developed countries didn't have certification based schemes, meaning notable portion of their releases have gone uncertified even in markets like Germany and Canada for example (both of which have established their schemes in '75). Therefore, their certified sales coming from our available markets are much lower.
Let me now post Madonna's certified sales below and we can discuss further about what we're going to do. The order of markets are : biggest to smallest.
US certified sales: 64 million Albums, 19.5 million Singles, 1,275,000 Videos
Japan's certified sales (database is from July 2003 onwards): 950,000 Albums
UK certified sales: 14,860,000 Albums, 8,700,000 Singles
Germany's certified sales: 9.5 million Albums, 2.5 million Singles, 250,000 Videos
France's certified sales: 9,625,000 Albums 4,150,000 Singles
Canada's certified sales : 4,4 million Albums, 50 Singles
Australia's certified sales (database is from 1997 onwards): 2,590,000 Albums, 700,000 Singles, 90,000 Videos
Brazil's certified sales (database is from 1990 onwards): 2,375,000 Albums, 650,000 Singles, 155,000 Videos
Mexico's certified sales (database is from 1999 onwards): 420,000 Albums, 20,000 Singles, 10,000 Videos
Spain's certified sales (database is from 2004 onwards): 930,000 Albums, 60,000 Singles
The Netherlands' certified sales (database is from 1978 to 2006): 1,590,000 Albums, 50,000 Singles
Sweden's certified sales (database is from 1987 onwards): 810,000 Albums, 240,000 Singles
Argentina's certified sales: 670,000 Albums, 16,000 Videos
Switzerland's certified sales (database is from 1989 onwards): 870,000 Albums, 145,000 Singles
Finland's certified sales: 572,508 Albums, 13,617 Singles, 6,291 Videos
Austria's certified sales (database is from 1990 onwards): 485,000 Albums, 75,000 Singles
Poland's certified sales (database is from 1995 onwards): 480,000 Albums, 15,000 Videos
153.7 million is our total from above markets. IFPI (Europe) has 26 million in certified album sales for the entire European continent, the database is from 1996 onwards. The figures for each Madonna's album for IFPI (Europe) include all European markets' sales including those above as well as those which don't offer searchable databases. Therefore, we cannot post IFPI (Europe) figures as a large portion of those figures are already covered by the markets above, the remainder of the figures for each album respectively (after subtracting those above) are for to get a clearer idea of Europe's certified sales.
While, I'd hate to see another artist with an inflated estimated figure in the table, Bluesatellite does have a point If she can not stayed there, so why Michael Jackson can! Even with claim of fantastic 750 million. To have prevented this from happening, Jackson should not have been put up in the table in the first place. But at the time of the ugly dispute last year, that seemed to be the only solution. So my question to you Bluesatellite is: can't we be intelligent enough and accept the truth and keep Madonna off the table rather than making the table even less credible than it already is by including Madonna with 300 million in sales? I am only trying to have an honest list. --Harout72 (talk) 01:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I wanna say sorry to you Harout72 if you feel uncomfort with my statement, and thank you for completing Madonna's available certifications. But I want to point up that, first, Madonna has four certified-singles in Canada (Vogue, Justify My Love, Die Another Day, and Hung Up). Second, Madonna biggest-selling studio album "True Blue" (1986) has gone uncertified in several market including Australia. Harout72, I do not come here to claim Madonna has sold 400, 500, or even worse "750 million records". I just changed the claim of 250 million from the 2004 article of The Independent to a recent 2010 article of the same media, which claimed "only" 50 million more in seven years. I believe she may deserve it since her certified catalogue is near to the artists who has stayed on the top of this page a long time. Although in fact, she has more certification, Madonna still at the bottom of this new section. It would be another story, if I come here to claim A. R. Rahman or Nana Mouskouri sold 300 million with their lack popularity and certifications. It is Madonna, an artist who now still releases and sells records since three decades ago. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, there will be no honesty if we talk about best-selling artists, albums, or singles. If we wanna be honest, we will never believe Elvis Presley sold "one billion", even how iconic, influential he is. Nothing Beyonce sold 50 million with just three albums. So, please, as I said above I do not come here to exaggerate Madonna's sales figure. I just want we are "fair" in this case. I just changed 250 to 300 million, not "from 300 million to 750 million" (more than twice) as the last year's discussion. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about Canada's certified sales, I just re-checked my sheet and I happen to have 4.4 million in Album sales alone and 50,000 units for "Justify My Love", I'm not sure why at the bottom of Canada's column on my sheet I had only 1.7 million, I also re-checked all others just in case. But I don't have any certified sales for her other singles from the Canadian market, I may need to go over Madonna's Canada's certified sales once their database is back online (under construction at the moment). I don't mean to make this long but I thought it would be worth pointing out that with regards to Beyonce's certified sales, Beyonce has 40.7 million in certified sales from the same markets that I have for Madonna above. 33 million of Beyonce's certified sales comes from US market alone. Nana Mouskouri is an early beginner, so no matter how hard we try to get her certified sales, most of her records have sold before the developed world had any certification schemes. As for A. R. Rahman, this guy is from India where the population is 1.1 billion, which makes his 100 million records in sales somewhat believable.

Back to our main issue here, as I stated above you do have a point. And I personally don't think that Madonna has sold as much records as much Independent claims, but my main focus here is to keep artists like Cliff Richard and Bing Crosby off this list whose claimed figures are oceans apart from their certified sales regardless of the period they have been popular in. Anyways, here is what I suggest, if the other editor Petergriffin9901 doesn't oppose, I guess we could go ahead and implement Madonna's certified sales along with her available recent claimed figures. I hope sounds fair to both sides.--Harout72 (talk) 04:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I really appreciate your explanation, Harout72. For the last time, I say we should be "fair"; aside of her certifications, Madonna's new claim is not multiple-times higher than the other claims. And for Petergriffin9901, I'm highly doubt he will agree with this new claim, since he has a longtime disagreement with the editors of Madonna related article. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

It's best to have a consensus on this issue before we move forward. Let's wait and see his response.--Harout72 (talk) 06:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Before I make my decision, I would like to ask you a question Blue. Why on earth do you have to pull fan things and battles into this discussion, what purpose does it serve you. I don't hink its fair that you continuously try and bash me and make our discussions more and more ugly. You had no reason to say I'm highly doubt he will agree with this new claim, since he has a longtime disagreement with the editors of Madonna related article. I would like to also point out one more thing. On "Legolas" talk page, I asked you why you wouldn't vote to allow claims such as "Mariah Carey sells 200m" or ""best selling female artist" wehn I had sources like the "The independent" and many more as and more reliable. And you answered me And Peter, the reason I reverted your "200 million claim" on Mariah Carey because many other users including Kww and Jay disagree with it. This went oon because everytime I place some Carey info, you revert instead of doin as you asked me before "Please respect my edits", so I don't think your a fair editor and all your looking to do is fight over things. Please explain it to me, because this is what i unfortunately see.--PeterGriffinTalk 01:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
...This went oon because everytime I place some Carey info, you revert instead.... Excuse me Peter. Which info on Mariah Carey article did I revert everytime?? Did I vandalize Mariah's article? Remove her certifications or sales on her albums, like you did in the past to Madonna's article ?? Or did I say Mariah Carey bitch, prostitute?? Sorry, I'm not trying to do personal attack, sorry. This is out of topic. If you want to discuss such things please come to my talk page! Bluesatellite (talk) 05:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I didn't call Madonna a "Bitch prostitute", I said "her big break came from pornography, sex and prostitution; things that would make a dog famous. I said only true things, or aren't they? And I didn't make any personal attacks or out and out call her out for, and just so you know I regret saying those things, my argument should have stood out for itself, without belittling her, but its something in the past and I haven't done it again. And yes, whenever I would change it from 175 to 200m you would revert, your reasons Im not sure of, instead of "respecting my edits". Ill tell you something, I don't have a big problem with listing Madonna and her claimed sales, but I would appreciate it we could from now on edit in peace and work together, not always in argument and in warring. My mission on Wikipedia is not to belittle or vandalize Madonna's page, you show me once I out and out vandalized her page? I have not. Anyways I say let the edit go, the opposite of what Blue labeled my decision. I have another issue though, I do not believe Michael Jackson's absurd claims to belong there. There is no way in hell he sold 750, or even half that, so I would like to remove it.--PeterGriffinTalk 09:44, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks like we have a consensus, meaning we can move forward and place Madonna into the table by implementing her certified sales along with the 300 million. As for Michael Jackson's 750 million, I could not agree with you more that there is no way his actual sales is probably not even half that much. But, we probably should not touch it as I'm sure this place might very well turn into a battle field again like last year. I was the one who removed Jackson's 750 million and downgraded him into a lower section with 350 million figure. I'm sure you had a look at the endless discussion, that's when I decided to construct a table and place Jackson along with The Beatles and Elvis Presley in it. I wanted certified sales included, so any rational person who took a look at the 750 million would never believe it, because we all know if Jackson truly sold 750 million records his certified sales would be (from our available markets) at least 450-500 million. --Harout72 (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, gotcha, thanks. I have one more problem. If Madonna is in that table, shouldn't we also mention her sales at 200 and 250, like with Abba. I mean there are many sources claiming 200, 250 and 1 claiming 300. So we should list all 3--PeterGriffinTalk 06:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure we could do that, let's just make sure they are not very old. One year old should be fine, the older article from Independent's UK division probably should be left out, anything newer and as reliable should be fine.--Harout72 (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Just want to know where they got that Michael Jackson has sold 750 million albums and singles in this world. He sold a lot, his album Thriller was the best selling album of all time, but it is not so powerful to have sold that much. This list is very unfair, absurd numbers. His songs always burst on the charts worldwide: Holiday, Like a Virgin, Papa Do not Preach, Like a Prayer, Vogue: who ever heard these songs? Removing the current hits it, like Frozen, Music, Hung Up, 4 Minutes, which maintained its popularity over the years. Madonna has sold more than 100 million singles, in total, would give at least 350 million to 400 million in sales for her. I guarantee that Madonna has sold more than 300 million albums and singles, it is the biggest selling female artist of this world, both albums as singles. Madonna is to put 300, put 300 for Michael Jackson too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.62.35.169 (talk) 02:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

beach boys

im suprised the beach boys arent on this list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.63.118 (talk) 01:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

If your surprised, go look for some reliable sources and find one about their sales.--PeterGriffinTalk 01:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin

First of all sorry for my english i'm from argentina. And second, this is the second time i put this message( because i don't know if you or someone else deleted my other) that led zeppelin sales are about 300 million albums worldwide not 200 million, you have two sources that say that led zeppelin sold about 200 million, but i'm giving you 7 souces that say that they've sold 300 million, here they are (please don't delete this message, it's just to help the article)

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=28855 http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1693348,00.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6992623.stm http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aaiFFXwxS1YM&refer=muse http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL0542671120071207 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562990/20-million-Led-Zeppelin-fans-rush-for-tickets.html http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/09/led.zep/index.html

--Dethmyname (talk) 16:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Please allow some time for me to go over Led Zeppelin's available certified sales to see if the 300 million may seem realistic for them.--Harout72 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I finished going over Led Zeppelin's available certified sales, below I'm posting the largest market at the top and the smallest at the bottom by separating the figures for Albums from Singles and Videos:
US certified sales: 111.5 million albums, 1 million singles, 1 million videos
Japan's certified sales (the database is from July 2003 onwards): 100,000 albums, 100,000 videos
UK certified sales (database is from 1973 onwards): 7,140,000 albums
Germany's certified sales (database is from 1975 onwards): 3,200,000 albums, 75,000 videos
France's certified sales (database is from 1973 onwards): 1,875,000 albums
Australia's certified sales (database is from 1997 onwards): 1,820,000 albums, 105,000 videos
Brazil's certified sales (database is from 1990 onwards): 250,000 albums, 100,000 videos
The Netherlands's certified sales (database is from 1978 to 2006): 140,000 albums
Argentina's certified sales (database is from 1980 onwards): 450,00 albums
Switzerland's certified sales (database is from 1989 onwards): 140,000 albums
Finland's certified sales (database is from 1971 onwards): 54,156 albums, 10,006 videos
Austria's certified sales (database is from 1990 onwards): 65,000 albums
The total available certified-album-sales from the markets above is 126.7 million. While, Led Zeppelin's US certified sales is outright phenomenal, their certified sales in European larger markets (including UK, Germany and France) is not as impressive. Regardless of the fact that Led Zeppelin have begun their career as early as 1968/1969, had they really sold 300 million albums, our total from available markets above would have been at least 150-170 million certified-album-units. Note that European larger markets which have established their certification-schemes in early '70s or mid '70s have certified Led Zeppelin's early sellers. Also, we seem to have equal number of reliable sources which claim that Led Zeppelin's album sales stands at 200 million, CNN reports 200 million albums, Telegraph reports 200 million albums, Daily Mail reports 200 million albums.
However, if there was a reliable source which claimed 300 million records (meaning albums, singles, videos), then it would be something to consider. Only then, I'd agree to move Led Zeppelin into the main table on the list with all their available certified sales posted. Otherwise, as far as their album sales go, 200 million is a lot more realistic than 300 million.--Harout72 (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, the certified sales worldwide that you check, made about 126.7 albums sold. And you say that 200 million is more realistic but in your list from 300- you have Madonna and ABBA and Elvis Presley and most of the sales also came from the US and little over Europe but you have this sources that say that Elvis sales are from 600 million to 1 billion worldwide but the available certified sales are 189.2 and 174 million came from the US, and ABBA has only 52.7 million certified sales but according to reliebe sources they've sold 370 million records worldwide, so i don't know why is more realistic to believe that led zeppelin sales are 200 million, when there are several sources from london (BBC) and others more, that says that at the point they made they return to stages in 2007 when their music executive died they 've sold over 300 million records, besides when they started they also sold records that are not certified because some of this countries which have recording industries, where not created until years later. --190.188.145.123 (talk) 00:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Madonna is on the list with almost 155 million in certified sales not to mention that her source does state records not just albums. Records are albums, singles and videos. Whereas Led Zeepelin's sources only speak of album-sales, and that's what I meant when I said 300 million in album sales (only) is not realistic; however, 300 million records (albums, singles and videos combined) would be logical. I would not compare the size of the catalog that Presley possesses to the size Led Zeppelin does have, not to mention that Presley has begun his career in 1958 and sold large portion of his records when only US market had certification-scheme. In other words, the larger an artist's catalog is, the more units there are uncertified which lie between (for example) the first platinum-award and the second platinum-award. We could never see those units until an album or a single reaches the next platinum-award. And in the case of someone like Presley, there are too many of those uncertified units in the US market especially since the platinum-award-level is very high. By the way, the most important markets in the world including UK, Germany, France and even Canada (Canada's certification-database is currently under construction), did have certification-schemes established not long after Led Zeppelin launched their career. As for ABBA, they have mostly been liked by Europeans and nations in Asia pacific where dance music has always attracted millions of people. Dance music has never been big in the US market, therefore, the number of ABBA's certification-awards is not impressive, but I'm quite sure their certified sales would have been high had all European markets begun issuing certifications earlier than they have.
Once again, let me emphasize that I am not refusing to put Led Zeppelin into the main table, I'm simply after a source that uses the term records instead of albums. Please bring it to my attention when such a source is located.--Harout72 (talk) 01:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Here are four sources that say that Led Zeppelin has sold about 300 million records wordlwide http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3669860/Led-Zeppelin-Why-rarity-made-the-Led-Zep-reunion-so-precious.html http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0496389/bio http://www.gotickets.com/concert/led_zeppelin.php http://www.amazon.co.uk/Led-Zeppelin-Videobiography-DVD/dp/B000OPP71S. But again i don't think is imposible for a band like Led Zeppelin to sell 300 million albums in over 42 years since their formation. --Dethmyname (talk) 02:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The last three cannot be used at all as they cannot be regarded as reliable, but the first one is reliable, but it does state they've sold 300 million records by 1980 which we should not use as it may open doors for deputes. Editors later may say, if they've sold 300 million records by 1980, then their sales by now should be 400 or 500 million, and I don't want to start anything like that. Is there another source perhaps you could get hold of, a reliable one, that does simply state The band has sold 300 million records without playing around with time periods? --Harout72 (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's 1 source from CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/09/led.zep/index.html --Dethmyname (talk) 02:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

That'll do it, good job. Let me have some time and I will implement the certified sales and move them into the main table.--Harout72 (talk) 03:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


Scorpions

The German Hard-Rock Group Scorpions Sold over 100 Millionen Records, look at their Site here on Wiki, and Links: http://www.the-scorpions.com/english/ and http://www.knac.com/article.asp?ArticleID=7467 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.4.111.108 (talk) 07:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Can't use those sources you've provided as they cannot be regarded as reliable. Articles should come from prestigious new services preferably, some music industry related associations are ok too like MTV for example.--Harout72 (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Link: http://www.mtv.co.uk/artists/scorpions or http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/06/the_scorpians_rudolph_schenker.html, Is this Enough?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.4.111.108 (talk) 15:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Not bad, are there other articles from prestigious news services like CNN, BBC or Deutsche Welle claiming alike figures?--Harout72 (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

another Links: http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/0,1518,673699,00.html http://www.bild.de/BILD/unterhaltung/musik/2010/04/07/scorpions/ehrung-auf-dem-rock-walk-of-fame.html, and http://www.rockwalk.com/inductees/inductee.cfm?id=184, or http://www.billboard.com/news/scorpions-forsee-fantastic-future-following-1004063623.story#/news/scorpions-forsee-fantastic-future-following-1004063623.story and http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/hard-rock-aus-deutschland-die-scorpions-gehen-in-rente-1.75714 , http://www.metal-hammer.de/Scorpions_Rock_Legende_Karriere_Ende_STING_IN_THE_TAIL-site-hammer.html --91.4.46.200 (talk) 10:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC) http://video.foxnews.com/v/4138651/sting-in-the-tail/?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g4:r2:c0.000000:b32548632:z6 --91.4.46.200 (talk) 12:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC) more links: http://www.haz.de/Nachrichten/Kultur/Uebersicht/Scorpions-hoeren-nach-neuem-Album-und-Welttournee-auf and http://derstandard.at/1267743506546/Abschiedstour-Scorpions-bringen-ihr-letztes-Album-raus or http://www.gala.de/stars/ticker/BSBS105371/Rammstein-und-die-Scorpions-bei-World-Music-Awards-geehrt.html --91.4.101.146 (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2010 (UTC) http://multibrand.blogspot.com/2010/05/scorpions-borobudur-temple-show.html --91.4.58.211 (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

  • Since their certified sales doesn't suggest that they may have sold 100 million albums, I updated their figure using a source that uses the term records, meaning Albums, Singles, Videos, which is somewhat logical. But as far as having sold 100 million albums, they may not have sold that much, looks to me like it's just a promotional figure tossed about to market their current or supposedly the last album. Anyways, Scorpions are now within the section of 100-199.--Harout72 (talk) 01:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! --91.4.103.71 (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Vicky Leandros

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but I think that Vicky Leandros should be back on the list. She has sold over 50 million albums and was awarded for this in 2009. She has released several gold and platinum albums throughout Europe in the 1960s-80s. [1] Tako21 (talk) 06:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's been discussed briefly before, see the archived discussion here.--Harout72 (talk) 15:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well in that case it needs to be more than briefly discussed again . Who goes on these lists seems to largely be based on certain contributors opinion of what is likely or not . This is no criteria to work on . It seems also that certified sales also cannot be used because huge selling artists who we all know are worldwide household names have very few sales certified and those that are just make no sense . Like Nana Mouskouri having 600,000 sales in Germany - Europe's largest market where she has been very popular for decades and supposedly 1.5 Million in Canada . Most of the certified sales are just rubbish for most of the artists quoted . It just goes to show that lots of sales are not certified so that means they have not been sold does it ? You say Vicky has no certified sales so that means she has sold no records . You obviously cannot go by certified sales . There is no solution but to use claimed sales - backed up with sensible certified sales - where they exist - bringing common sense and consensus of opinion with discussion etc by interested party's who have knowledge of the artists successes and achievements in the relative markets - numbers of hits - chart positions - years of sales etc - but not just one or two people's opinion and based on non existant certification and what sources are approved or not .

Vicky should be on the list for over 150 Million - look into the latest claim this week from esctoday which agrees with most others . She has had a well publicised national award in Greece for this and a platinum disc televised in Germany recently for 55 Million just in albums . Look at the list of best selling Greek artists worldwide and you get the same result . You cannot go on certified sales because you say Vicky has none and I assure you she has not had no sales  !!! She has had dozens of huge hit singles in multiple languages . Japanese and Far East sales are legendary . Also Canada , South Africa and most of Europe . Some smaller markets granted like Greece though they buy alot of music for their size and Netherlands aswell as being huge in all German speaking areas . So please look at her again and your criteria . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.201.184 (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

First of all, you need to familiarize yourself with certification-award-levels of those markets which you're going to use for your arguments as you have done for Nana Mouskouri. Mouskouri's German certified sales may not be a lot but it's surely not 600,000, it is 1,275,000 (including Gold video: 25,000), see Germany's certification-award-levels here. By the way, Germany did have the largest market in Europe about a decade ago, that's not the case anymore. The largest market belongs to UK, has been for years now. Although, Mouskouri has begun her career much earlier (in 1958) than Vicky Leandros in order for her records to have been certified by most markets, she has three of her albums certified in UK as well, total of 270,000 units there. Not to mention that she has certified sales popping up everywhere regardless of how early she's begun her career. For example, France: 2.2 million certified albums, 500,000 certified singles and 13.3 in actual sales, the Netherlands: 100,000 in certified albums, Argentina: 180,000 in certified albums.
And when looking at certified sales of those artists who have begun their careers much earlier than the period when most markets instituted their first certification-awards, I'm not looking to find 100 million certified-units in certification databases for those who have claimed figures of 150 million as it supposedly is the case with Leandros. I'm simply trying to see whether the claimed figures are inflated and tossed about to make the actual sales more impressive for promotional purposes. With all due respect, but if Leandros has supposedly sold 55 million albums just in Germany, how do you explain that all of her records have gone uncertified, don't you think that they are simply trying to promote possibly an upcoming material? Record companies do inflate sales figures all the time for various reasons, read the following articles for example: 1. NewsLine: Former Music Executive. 2) Troubles in Stores.
Bottom line is that relying on certified sales is a solid way of determining whether or not the artist in question has actually had success in a particular market. In other words, had Leandros really sold 150 million records, we would have seen at least 25-30 million of her records in certification databases considering that she has released countless albums after 1973 which is when UK and France have established their certification schemes, and Germany in 1975 and the Netherlands in 1978, and Finland in 1971 and US 1958. Neither of those markets; however, does have a single sign of strong sales for Leandros. Also, Leandros' chart-positions in Germany on most of her singles/albums don't seem to be phenomenal, see the singles' positions here, and for albums here, search for some of her earlier albums here. Her UK charting is not at all impressive, if non-existent. I also checked Leandros' chartings in other markets, I must say none in France, none in Finland, none in Sweden, none in Spain, none in Italy, none in Australia, none in US, she seems to have charted in Norway with only one single, she's charted in the Netherlands with her singles between 1972 and 1982 but none of her albums have charted there. In Switzerland, six of her singles have charted but again none of her albums have charted. In Austria, five of her singles and only three of her albums have poorly charted. I believe, it's quite clear that Leandros' 150 million seen in some articles is nothing but a promotional figure. She perhaps has sold some 50 million records (albums, singles), but 150 million is clearly out of the question. Hope my explanation somewhat clears things up for you.--Harout72 (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I do know already pretty well all the info you give here . I have every album and single in every language and even most pressings that she has ever released - over 500 of each albums and even more singles and I know alot of her chart positions in each location . I accept alot of what you say but some of the countries you mention are places that she has not been popular in . She has had no success in UK apart from her ESC winner and none at all to speak of in the USA . She has many gold discs and awards for phenomenal sales in Japan for example - also South Africa . The award on German TV for 55 Million albums was world sales not German sales . According to her label it is as accurate as they can be from records gathered and certainly as accurate or more so than alot of claims I would imagine . She HAS had charting records in Australia - not a big market but you say you didn't find any . I know Come What May was number 2 there . It's not a big market I know but nevertheless it's a chart placing where you say you found none . I don't know all the details but she has had many hits in France - again you say you found none . For Example Apres Toi sold over a million copies and was number one there in 1972 - A L'est D'Eden was number 2 in 1984 and there are many others . She got a disc for a million sales of Apres Toi in France . I know all her chart positions in most countries and there are many examples where you are saying you found none . Korea , Singapore, Japan , South Africa are more places with alot of success but particularly Japan . Anyway I do follow your logic on alot of points and some points are accurate and I agree with - others are not and the info is not correct . The 55 Million albums worldwide ( noone claimed it was in Germany alone which I agree would be ridiculous ) for Vicky clearly has to be accepted and then if so it would be pretty obvious that she has sold atleast twice as many singles ( more in my opinion ) . It is certainly as believable to me as most of the claims on here . I do follow the way you have investigated but suggest that unless all countries sales can be accurately investigated then you have to apply the same criteria to all artists and rank on claims - discuss believability - liklihood whatever you want to call it but you can't exclude artist claims for some and include others - even ranking them on the largest claims right at the top !!! You do not have Vicky EVEN in the 50 Million section when she has been on national TV in 2009 with a big publicised award for over that figure just for albums never mind singles . It may be right - it may not be - just the same for everyone else . She has received lots of awards where the 150 Million figure is given and her claim is as good as any other . I accept you are finding a lack of certification . In Germany she has had singles which have sold individually over a million copies . It seems to me that most of the figures are not accurate that I am reading - all highly improbable for most of the artists . I agree with alot of your assessment for Vicky - I'm not a biased fan though I am a fan and in the scheme of probability I can see why you doubt the figure which is very reasonable - so do I - but nevertheless why are some artists getting the full benefit of what are probably even more outlandish claims and others do not get on the list even . It is indeed a problem hard to solve . What I would do in the case of Vicky Leandros is to give her the full status of a 150 Million seller as so much publicity supports that whether it is right or wrong but state also the certification that can or cannot be found after all countries have been checked . Afterall the claims given for all artists vary greatly and then the certification listed is a small fraction of it and obviously gives no indication in most cases of the truth - just the same as in the case for Vicky Leandros . I did appreciate your timely response and time spent - Thanks . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.201.184 (talk) 08:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC) I don't have much time to spend on this unfortunately but I have just looked at the sites you highlighted for Vicky Leandros regarding performance of her records in Germany . Now if there is one place you would expect to find well documented for her it would be Germany . However not all the info is there . Many charting records are missing I can assure you . Also where are the ones from 1965- 1970 ? One site has some but not all the singles which makes me think how accurate are they ? Anyone would have to look under Vicky without her stage surname also which may cause confusion to anyone researching . She has also had charting albums in Holland so you see I disagree with some of the info on the sites to begin with and I am right . May not make millions of difference but does lead me to doubt other info you have seen if EVEN German info can be wrong on sites about one of their most successful ever acts . To clear up the award given in Germany or televised there as I put it - she had to be somewhere when she received it - but it was for worldwide sales of albums not obviously just for German sales - she just received it in a Germany broadcast . During Vicky's most successful times concerning sales Germany was the largest market in Europe though it isn't now . Also on a recent series charting the most successful chart acts of all time there Vicky was the number one female singer ahead of all others on chart success including Nana Mouskouri who has been very successful there . Anyway if I look at all the other pointers you have given I will only find the info you have found and I see no reason to doubt what you say or check it and don't have time anyway . Some of it though may be wrong and /or incomplete . I know now why there are so many mistakes on Wiki about VL -because whoever got their info on Germany did it from the sites you have highlighted !!

I looked at Johnny Hallyday at random just to see the reference source for his 100 Million sales . BBC news obviously then considered to be an approved source . But where did they get their info from to state that as they will obviously not be experts on J H . Probably his record company - manager - entourage or himself ! They must get it from somewhere and you don't know where!! Maybe I told them . Not of course but just making the point about any supposed legitimate reference source - that you have no idea where they got it from or if it is correct anymore than you do if I tell you . I do accept though that certifications must give an indication atleast . Thanks and that's it from me - No more I can say ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.201.184 (talk) 14:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC) P.S. - Just looked at the sites you highlight for other countries that you are using to tell me there are no charting records in those locations for V L . Can't believe that you are basing your facts on these sources . They are not official - anyone can add record titles there and comment on them . For some countries where they give chart info it is accurate for others it is not or just missing !!! They are NO reference source of any reliability . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.201.184 (talk) 15:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding. Let me try and respond briefly. Johnny Hallyday is someone absolutely major in France, you can find countless certifications on his albums here and singles here, not to mention that his French actual sales is at 60.7 million. I personally would not believe that figure if I didn't see the number of his French certifications. I see that you seem to doubt whether some others have sold as much as claimed by news services. The fact and the matter is that records companies do always inflate sales figures mostly for promotional reasons, and this is nothing new. However, I do put in a lot of effort into trying to keep this list as honest and credible as I possibly can. In other words, if a news service claims some 250 million for someone like Cliff Richard who doesn't have enough certifications to back up a figure that huge, the answer is simple: Inflation/Marketing Tool, and he has no place on the list, at least not with 250 million, that is outrageous and I'm not afraid of proving that.
Back to Vicky Leandros, I hate to say this but 150 million in sales is a very difficult figure to achieve without having success in number of large markets, that would include not only Germany, but also UK, France, Japan and even US, not to mention that another large portion would have to come from medium sized markets like the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Spain, Italy and so on. Believe me, markets such as South Africa, Korea or Singapore are not even worth mentioning as they could never generate much sales, at least for someone who has a claimed figure of 150 million.
You may find this very difficult to believe, but I have checked for existing certified sales for all artists on the list even for the artists from the Japanese market. I honestly don't know how to tell you this and not make it sound offensive, but I would really stop believing what TV stations in Germany or elsewhere have to say about Leandros' or any other artists' record sales. Thanks again for your understanding.--Harout72 (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Not at all it's I who thank you for your patience and understanding for much of what I have written . I completely understand your points and how you are working and absolutely believe that you have checked certification for everyone . The lists are now using certification as the criteria and that being so if it's not there for VL then that's as it is . The lists were compiled at one time on claims and I suppose I was harping back to that . I see that you would expect some certification of a reasonable percentage as an indication of any supposed large scale figure claimed and as you are finding none - I do find that amazing and can't see how it can be mindyou considering the knowledge I have of Vicky's hits and chart positions all over the world with press cutting of disc awards at the time etc in many cases - but your criteria has to be the certification you find - I just don't think hers can all be certified when it should have been or any of it for that matter if you are finding none at all . I know figures are usually exaggerated and I'm sure you could gather I don't even believe the figures given as a fan - but a fair minded one I think - but I believe as you suspect yourself that she does deserve to be atleast in the over 50 M section . However you have to base on what you find and I completely accept all you say . However most of the chart info you pointed me to is wrong and incomplete . I know it's by the by because that is not what you are concerned with and it was me that first mentioned hits charts etc and you just followed it up trying to show me her performance was not that good even there - then I disagreed with it . Worries me though as I just suspect it's the same with certifications - not applied for or documented - leads me to think it's a possibility but nothing we can do about that . The list of German albums for e. g. that you pointed me to has the top 4 charting then nothing after . Every album on that list charted - every one and more besides . Thanks again it is just as it is !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.201.184 (talk) 10:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

You definitely seem to have a knowledge of Leandros' chartings, and I don't doubt that. Let me just point out one important thing concerning chart positions. High chart positions do not immediately translate into huge sales, unless a record (single or album) remains within the top-20 or even top-10 for many consecutive weeks. In other words, if an album enters the top-10 in its first week of release and drops out of the top-20 the following week, that record never really generates much sales, and this is where a lot people get confused. Consequently, that the same record never gets to reach the level of a Gold-certification-award (for example) and never gets certified. I have a feeling that this is what Leandros may have experienced with her records, because as far as the German-music-market-association goes, from my long observation, they never leave anything uncertified, they always seem to be at the top of their game, normally it's the same with many other associations in the developed world.
With regards to the way this list is operated, it still largely relies on claimed figures, but as you have noticed, we have changed the general approach. We need to see significant number of certifications for all artists in order to put them up on the list, this is also stated in the box at the top of this discussion page. Especially, newer artists/bands who have launched their career after 1980 or 1990, their certified sales should be close to the claimed figures. For earlier artists/bands, as you may have noticed from my discussion above, we only need to see some portion (notable portion) of their certified sales. Again for Leandros' 150 million, I'd be prepared to find some 20-30 million in certified sales, but such is not the case. --Harout72 (talk) 16:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I realise that about charts that longevity is paramount for sales volume . I looked at the German database for gold/platinum awards you highlighted and found that it seemed to start from 1975 . ALL Vicky's biggest successes are before that date . I couldn't therefore check . Perhaps other sources are limited by date too . She had 2 singles which were top 10 for 18 weeks - one was number 2 for 8 weeks !! It sold 1.5 Million just in Germany . She also had a album or two that charted for a year or so constantly which isn't bad going . I worked in records in the 70's and Vicky was often to be seen in major industry publications such as Musikmarkt and Music Week receiving gold discs for sales . I will still have some of the articles somewhere - so it surely can't all be made up . I mean these are reports at the time . I know South Africa is not a big market and I'm not arguing here about the 150 M or anything just that you are finding no certifications for her anywhere - but she was presented live on stage in 1973 with 2 gold discs for sales of singles and one for an album during her 1973 tour ! The sales volumes were stated and they were official from the record label representation so not a stunt or anything . Her biggest years were 68-74 . Alot maybe under Vicky without the surname . I know she has alot of gold discs for sales - I've even seen some of them personally and in photos so they must exist !!! I have had personal contact to her on many occasions and it is the certification lack that I question - I've taken in the rest of what you say . Thanks . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.94.166 (talk) 09:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

For Vicky Leandros I would expect evidence of disc awards / certification for - in atleast the following places from my knowledge . Greece - Japan - South Africa - Canada - Holland - Germany - France . Disc awards appear with what they were for stated on some of her products too LP,s and CDs .

I know she received also some disc awards that were for sales not in one place - i. e . I remember one was for 1 Million sales of albums outside Germany ( not for German sales ) and there may be others given where the criteria is at the discretion of the record label - not following a certification amount of sales in any one juristiction . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.94.166 (talk) 09:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I honestly, don't know what more I can do here, really. All I can say is that 150 million is not the kind of figure that an artist can achieve without having collected large number of certifications in many large markets for many years. In other words, a figure like that could never be achieved within a period of some six years (1968-1974), although, I don't doubt that she may have sold millions in Germany before 1975. But let's face it, Leandros' success has not even reached the US not to mention that she's only been known in UK with very few of her records. Yes, Germany is a large market and has always been, but it could not have even generated one third of her so called 150 million alone. At the top of this page in the box, you can find the certification databases for all those markets which offer certification databases including Canada, and you can check for yourself, there really is nothing for her. As much as I have always loved English-singing bands/artists from Germany, I can confidently say that Germany has only produced one act so far that has sold over 100 million records and that's Boney M. Even Modern Talking's 120 million claimed by Germans seems an exaggeration, but I don't want to make a big deal out of it because they have a few certifications here and there (I mean outside of their home market) and enough for Germany. Acts who have sold some 150 million records are U2 like bands, who have been collecting countless certifications and selling a lot of records consistently (including all the large markets), not just for six years or so. Really, I don't think Leandros belongs on this list, please don't be offended but I think we've said all that could be said here.--Harout72 (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

That's fair enough - I'm not out to try anyone's patience and I did clearly state that I am not concerning myself in the last remarks I made with the 150 Million . Your lists do start at 50 Million afterall and Vicky Leandros is not there either but I understand you have not found any evidence even to suggest that level . That's fine but surely you can't blame me for saying that the German database for disc awards does start after her most successful time and that is the reason you are finding none there which I could not understand . It's the only one I checked and if you were me I don't think you'd be very impressed . There really isn't a point infact to check further when this is an example . Regardless of whether you are talking 150 million or another amount a person needs to be able to check . I can see you've heard more than enough from me so you do not need to respond . I was directed to info however which cannot it seems be checked for all years and I wonder how many of the other countries you've looked at are the same since I know that VL has many disc awards not just from Germany . Unless you can find info for all the years of a career from all the relevant places with large markets atleast you cannot possibly get a true indication of a % of certification which might then lead you to believe an artist had sold more than you thought - even to suggest the first band of 50 Million . I cannot see how you can judge . Just as an aside and concerning any artist it is also possible for artists to sell huge amounts of product without popularity in the UK or USA enough to qualify here . I know of course that it is easier WITH those sales but plenty do it without and does not necessarily exclude someone - that's all I am saying . Also to point to German acts really has no meaning . I am impressed with this site and accept you are making it as honest as possible . You may well be correct about VL but from the sources you supplied me with I couldn't check properly and neither can you presumably and that is the point surely . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.94.166 (talk) 22:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Are there highly reliable sources which claim that Leandros has sold 50 million records? If there are (don't have to be in English-language), then I would consider putting her up on the list for 50 million. But as far as the 150 million figure goes, we'd definitely see lots of certifications everywhere, regardless of how much earlier she's launched her career than the certification-schemes have come into the picture. Sources for this list, let me mention, are to be highly reliable, preferably prestigious news services (BBC, CNN, Deutsche Welle, Süddeutsche Zeitung) or highly regarded music industry associations, such as MTV or VH1 etc. Again, please understand that I am not looking to find some 100 million in certified sales when the claimed figure is 150 million, especially, when we are speaking of an artist who's begun in late 1960s. Therefore, 50 million is a figure we perhaps could accept. I hope this sounds fair enough.--Harout72 (talk) 21:19, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth - and no original research

For a long time, I have tried to guide this article back towards Wikipedia policy.

Some users are making their own decisions about what does and does not constitute a 'reliable source', taking ownership of the article, and overriding verifiable facts with original research.

The article still contains large amounts of non-encyclopaedic meta-information which is not appropriate - in particular the totally non-standard 'small print' saying Although this lists largely relies on claimed figures by highly reliable sources, some of the figures may need further examination to avoid inflated sales figures which is frequently practiced by Record Companies for promotional purposes. - we do not 'explain' our sources in other articles, so why on earth do we need to do so on this one?

Many footnotes are similarly non-encyclopaedic. The tables are to include two sources only for each claimed figure - why? Which policy says that, and why are we writing about Wikipedias policies within the article? There are other similar examples.

Frankly, if a few newspapers say that Lady GooGoo or whoever has sold 50M records, then we have a duty to reproduce this verifiable information. It does not matter if it is true; it is verifiable. If you disagree with this fundamental Wikipedia policy, then feel free to start a discussion about amending the policy.

It is not appropriate to calculate figures (WP:OR) and use these to discredit the numbers quoted in reliable sources.  Chzz  ►  17:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, per this discussion, I was under the impression that we had established a common understanding as to why some of the figures might need verification with certification-databases. Therefore, I included the statement Although this lists largely relies on claimed figures by highly reliable sources, some of the figures may need further examination to avoid inflated sales figures which is frequently practiced by Record Companies for promotional purposes.
I would also appreciate it if you did not assume ownership as I have done my best over the past, at least, two years to keep this article clean, others do edit this page as well; in other words, my keeping a close eye on this article should not spur some editors to assume ownership.
As for the footnotes such as this for example The tables are to include two sources only for each claimed figure, it felt (right after the long discussion for the sales of Michael Jackson) that it would be a good idea to include this due to some editors insisting on higher figures than what Jackson's certified sales supported, it felt at the time that Jackson's fans would fill the table with dozens of sources claiming 750 million to emphasize their point. However, it may no longer be necessary, we could remove that.
Let me know if I we should discuss the presence of some other footnotes. As for (WP:OR), how is discussing figures and presenting the figures on a discussion page considered OR? I was quite convinced, by the way, that you agreed with verifying the figures per your comment ("I hope you can now see why we must take care to verify claims such as these") in this discussion.
As for Lady Gaga, no newspaper to my knowledge has yet published a total worldwide sales for her records yet, instead we've had this article for example reporting sales on some of her albums and some of her singles, that cannot be used. And if we have two different articles both published during the same time each stating a different sales figure for an artist, I don't see why we shouldn't go with the article which reports a figure that's closer to artist's certified sales. --Harout72 (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Re. need for verifiability - yes, of course - but why do we need to state it in the article? Same for footnotes. It's not encycloaedic info, that's the point - it's info about how we wrote the article, not about the topic; it doesn't belong in the article. It's not verifiable. "Although this lists largely relies on claimed figures by highly reliable sources" - according to whom? Is there an independent reliable source to verify the claim that the list relies on claimed figures? Can we verify it? "some of the figures may need further examination" - according to whom?
Q. about these databases - how, exactly, do we verify with the links to RIAA etc? When I click the refs, it shows a list of singles - where are the figures from? How do you arrive at your totals?
Re. Gaga - Times here says she sold 15 million albums and 40 million singles - is that OK?  Chzz  ►  03:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

To answer your question as to how the total is determined by looking into databases: RIAA's site (for example) has current US certification-award-levels posted at criteria, for example, Platinum-award in US both for singles/albums=1,000,000, Gold-award for singles/albums=500,000. One of the footnotes below the table, indicates what the certification-award-level used to be for the singles before 1989. And immediately below that very footnote, one can find footnotes which cover the current award-levels and also the changes in certification-awards in other markets, the figures of which are included within the table. There is nothing unencyclopedic about those, it's simply an information.

As for Lady Gaga's figure, while the Times reports Gaga's albums tally standing at 15 million, another source like this claims 11.5, and this is for an artist who doesn't have a large catalog, just one studio album, one EP, and one Remix album. And when I put the certified sales into work as I've done above, to determine which one of those given figures for Gaga's albums is more correct, I'll go with the 11.5 million.

We can take this footnote Although this lists largely relies on claimed figures by highly reliable sources, some of the figures may need further examination to avoid inflated sales figures which is frequently practiced by Record Companies for promotional purposes, and change it into Record companies are known for inflating sales figures for promotional purposes, and perhaps put under subheading Contraints, and we do have two reliable sources supporting that statement. I really think that readers should be informed that record companies often inflate figures for their advantage.--Harout72 (talk) 05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to argue with the Lady Gaga bit, look closely at her discography, she has 2 studio albums, 2 compilations, 1 EP and 8 singles (3 of which are on wikipedia's list of best selling singles worldwide). It is not necessarily a "large" catalog, but it surely qualifies to enter the list in 50+ million records according to the above mentioned 2 sources.--User:GagaLittleMonster —Preceding undated comment added 15:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC).

GagaLittleMonster, I only look at those materials of Gaga which have had chart-success. When an artist happens to have a large catalog, there could be a lot of sales that may exist but will not show in the certification-databases due to some (if not all) of the records (albums, singles) not having reached either Gold or Platinum levels. And that's what I mean with Lady Gaga; in other words, she cannot have that much sales in excess, other than what the databases contain, meaning If RIAAs database (for example) contains 4 million in certified album sales, her actual sales should not surpass 5 million mark. That could be very different; however, with large-catalog possessing artists, they may have some 4 million in certified-album-sales, while their actual-album-sales may easily surpass 7 or 8 million due to hundreds of thousands of units on each material not showing in the databases due to not having reached the Gold or the Platinum level.--Harout72 (talk) 19:37, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

The Beach Boys

According to "digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com" the Beach Boys has sold over 65 milion records. They should be on this list: http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/best_artists-bio/Beach-Boys.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morden112 (talkcontribs) 19:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

While 65 million in sales seems quite logical for The Beach Boys, the provided source above is not reliable. If you could provide a reliable source claiming the 65 million, I will have no problem putting them up on the list.--Harout72 (talk) 23:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I found an other page. Many Beach boys biography said: "According to Billboard, in terms of singles and album sales, The Beach Boys are the No.-1-selling American band of all time." And in the En.wikipedia.org I fount that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_%28band%29 But I dont know yet how many record has sold the Beach Boys —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morden112 (talkcontribs) 08:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


Earth, Wind & Fire

Their wikipedia article Earth, Wind & Fire says they're on the list with sales exceding 90 million albums. How come they're not there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.93.232.169 (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I have already removed the 90 million figure from their page as the provided sourced did not mention a single word about their record sales.--Harout72 (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Most of the band members' wikipedia articles also contains this information. I'm pretty sure they've sold about 100 million records, but if no sources can clarify it, this should be adjusted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.93.232.169 (talk) 14:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Prince's record sales

I have seen several sites that have stated that Prince has sold 100 million albums worldwide not 80. Here are some links that say this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/prince/2010/07/09/prince-star-hails-free-new-album-20ten-as-global-rush-to-get-a-copy-begins-115875-22401819/ http://www.fastcompany.com/1667394/prince-claims-internet-is-dead-gaga-disproves-it http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n3_v52/ai_18980644/

There's also other websites/articles that make these claims that you can go search and check for yourself. Someone should update his record sales on this article. Helloagain272 (talk) 02:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

You have only one reliable source above, Daily Mirror, which states that Prince has sold 100 million albums. On the other hand, the article by BBC which supports Prince's stay on the list, states 80 million records. The latter is a lot more realistic considering what Prince's available certified sales suggests. However, if you come across a source that states 100 million records (meaning Albums, Singles, Videos), then that might be something to consider. It would have to be a reliable source though.--Harout72 (talk) 03:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I think most media assume that term "million albums" is about overall record sales. For example this website claimed Beyonce sold 50 million albums. If we count her each sale of her albums it would never reach that figure (Dangerously In Love 11 million - B'Day 5 million - I Am Sasha Fierce 6 million). It actually means she sold 50 million in record sales. Back to topic, I find a source from PR Newswire [6][7] that stated Prince sold 100 million records, what do you think? Bluesatellite (talk) 06:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Oasis

Hello there, I realise there has already been a discussion about the band 'Oasis' and the claim of 70 million records sold, and I have read through the previous discussion. However there are clearly a number of certifications missing, like Japan and South/central America and single sales where Oasis were very popular. Surely the certifications you provided would be the lowest possible number of records sold?. Oasis have sold almost 40 million in their first 3 studio albums alone, so I find it hard to believe the figure is as low as 50 million. morning glory- 22 million http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1250950/Brit-Pope-Vatican-puts-Oasis-albums-time.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/dec/06/noel-gallagher-oasis be here now- 8 million- according to it's page definitely maybe- 7.5 million according to it's page


there's also many sources that state 70 million in sales like http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artists/39ab1aed-75e0-4140-bd47-540276886b60#p0085r02 http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/music/reviews/some-might-say-oasis-are-still-world-beaters-after-slane-gig-14351086.html http://www.independent.ie/national-news/oasis-are-rock-kings--of-the--castle-1782424.html http://www.spin.com/articles/liam-gallaghers-new-band-bigger-oasis

and even these sources are a year old, there's since been a singles compilation. There's also many much less believable estimated sales that have been approved. For example Kylie Minogue on 60 million records, Linkin Park, Red Hot Chili Peppers and R.E.M just by skimming their discography page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quickstep22 (talkcontribs) 23:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

First, let me clarify one thing for you that this source here is a wikipedia mirror page, not a page coming from BBC. I honestly see a lot of inflated figures for albums respectively. For Example The Guardian claims that Morning Glory has sold 22 million units. How? Where? Here are the certifications for Morning Glory,
  • US certified sales: 4,000,000
  • UK certified sales: 4,200,000
  • German certified sales: 250,000
  • French certified sales: 300,000
  • Canadian certified sales: 800,000 (I've retrieved this before the site was gone under construction)
  • Australian certified sales: 420,000
  • Dutch certified sales: 50,000
  • Swedish certified sales: 100,000
  • Argentinean certified sales: 30,000
  • Swiss certified sales: 25,000
  • Finnish certified sales: 27,540
  • Norwegian certified sales: 25,000
  • Austrian certified sales: 25,000
And the entire European certified sales for Morning Glory is 6,000,000, and this includes the certified sales of UK, Germany and all other European markets. And our total is still only 10,252,540, and some 1,025,000 when we deduct all the European markets' figures from European continent's 6 million (this is done for those markets which don't offer certification databases). With those markets above, we covered 85-90% of all the markets in the world, and to me it's so obvious that the 22 million claimed by The Guardians could never be achieved even if we had all the small sales coming from the rest of the tenuous markets. And Morning Glory's certified sales is just one example. I could also post Oasis' certified sales for their overall sales for those the same markets above as well as the Japanese certified sales (which is only 400,000 since their certification database covers releases after July 2003), and believe me, it doesn't even reach half of the 70 million as claimed by Ireland's Independent. If Oasis were early beginners, having certified sales this much apart from their claimed figure would have made sense, but these guys have been releasing records for some 15 years, therefore, their certified sales should not be very far from their claimed figures.--Harout72 (talk) 02:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok no problem, It's just the Guardian is probably the most respected paper in the UK, so I thought they would be a reliable source. Morning Glory is 14x platinum UK, 4x platinum US, 6x platinum Europe etc, So I don't understand how sales can be 6m in Europe including UK?. But if it doesn't stack up then fine. The Japanese sales are much higher than 400,000 by the way. I've seen these figures for album sales alone, on the UKmix site. Which also uses soundscan stats to estimate Oasis' sales to be higher than stated here. I'm unable to copy the link to here. This is Japan.... 31,000 Definitely Maybe 107,000 What's the Story Morning Glory 350,000 Be Here Now 278,000 Standing on the Shoulder of Giants 210,000 Heathen Chemistry 201,000 Don't Believe the Truth 155,000 Dig Out Your soul

56,000 Familiar to Millions 143,000 The Masterplan 263,000 Stop the Clocks 100,000+ Time Flies

As I said earlier it seems like there are many other artists whose figures seem surprisingly high in relation to their certifications. How can Abba and Queen be put so high on estimated figures 4x higher than certified? I'm just sure that Oasis have sold higher, but I realise you can only work with the certifications you have. But even the figures you provided a year or so ago do add up to almost 40m and are discounting the Japanese Market, very high single sales and other add ons. So it's at least over 50 million in my opinion and the suggestion of it being only half of 70 million seems ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quickstep22 (talkcontribs) 08:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

No doubt that The Guardian is highly reliable, but keep in mind that these figures are given to them by Oasis' record company, and the record companies always try different marketing tactics to make their artists more impressive, and inflating figures is one of their well known marketing tools. And UK's BPI is a member of IFPI, as I stated above, Europe's 6 million includes (already contains) UK's BPI 14x Platinum (4,200,000) and Germany's figure and all other European markets' figures. In other words, BPI's fgures should not be viewed as a separate figure if you're going to rely on IFPI (Europe) 6 million alone. I hope I'm making this clear to understand. Keep in mind that Oasis, in Europe, is only very popular in UK not as popular in other parts of Europe; therefore, it's only 6 million + for the entire European continent, the 80% of which is generated by UK. As for UK Mix, it's not regarded as reliable and I would not rely on the figures coming from that site. Also for the artists on the list who have begun their career before certification-schemes were established in much of the world, see the notes I have prepared and posted below the table here.--Harout72 (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok thanks, I understand now. But I still believe that sales figures for other artists are inflated, e.g Robbie Williams (who is largely a British phenomenon) and Kylie Minogue. Their certifications in comparison to Oasis seem remarkably low for the estimated sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.159.128 (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Kylie Minogue I don't know as I still have not gone over her certifications, but as far as Robbie Williams' certifications go, I can assure you (and I am very skeptical when it comes to sales figures) that Williams is one of the very few artists on our list whose certified-sales and claimed sales-figures are close, at least for now. If in the new future his record company starts inflating figures for him just to be able market his upcoming materials better, that I can't say, but at the moment his IFPI (Europe) certifications for his albums alone make up 36,000,000, which is enough evidence for his 55 million in sales. Again that is only his album-certifications for Europe only.--Harout72 (talk) 01:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)