Talk:List of avant-garde metal artists

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Cleaning up the list.[edit]

I've been having trouble with the inaccuracies of this list for a while now (back when it wasn't it's own article, too!), and rather than childishly vandalise the page like I did before with other pages, I'm going to post a list of artists here that I feel A) do not belong here and B) are not properly sourced. I want to discuss whether they belong here instead of just removing them by myself; the latter would, given my recent outburst, look like vandalism.

So, let's look through the list and see what we can find! (artist names link to their respective sources instead of their articles on here)

  • All That Remains: they're only briefly called "experimental metal" without the article explaining what makes them part of the style ("Massachusetts experimental metal group All That Remains are half done recording their next disc, This Darkened Heart, due in March."), it's the only source used to back up their inclusion on the list, and from a quick Google search I just did it's the only article that actually refers to them as part of the genre.
I have no objections to this, but we should wait for another editor's opinion.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Since the author didn't explain what makes this band experimental and it's the only source calling them experimental metal, All That Remains should be removed. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Should I go ahead and remove it? Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it should be removed without more consensus.--¿3family6 contribs 23:51, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Black Flag: single source that refers to them as part of the genre, the book is on Husker Du (aka an unrelated subject) and is written by someone who is not an expert on metal, at least from what a quick bit of research pulled up.
I think at one point I saw another source that backed this up but since this source was already here I didn't bother adding another, I'll run a search later to see if I can find it again.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Couldn't find it yet, I may be confusing them with Napalm Death, I'm not sure.--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
This source says that Black Flag mixed heavy metal, noise music and avant-garde jazz with hardcore punk, and that their "musical experimentation and [...] fondness for poetry [...] prevented [them] from becoming nothing but a heavy metal group", so I think they can stay. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Saying they "mix heavy metal, noise music and avant-garde jazz with hardcore punk" and that their "musical experimentation and [...] fondness for poetry [...] prevented [them] from becoming nothing but a heavy metal group" aren't explicit enough for its inclusion as a source. Given that the band's placement is pretty controversial (since, y'know, they're not actually a metal band), I don't think they should be backed up by something as vague as that. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
"Black Flag was the definitive Los Angeles hardcore punk band. [...] their music flirted with heavy metal and experimental noise and jazz more than that of most hardcore bands, [...] Black Flag created a ferocious, edgy, and ironic amalgam of underground aesthetics and gut-pounding metal. [...] Black Flag demonstrated an affection for [...] musical experimentation [...] that reiterated the band's underground roots and prevented it from becoming nothing but a heavy metal group." I think I didn't read it very carefully. Yes, it's vague. Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Carcass: sole source that refers to them as part of the genre (both on the page and that I can find from a brief Google search), refers to them in passing without any justification as to how they're part of the genre, and the link doesn't actually give me the quote on the page itself to see if it makes more sense in context.
Again, this might have been mentioned somewhere else.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Maybe he calls Carcass avant-garde metal because they pioneered goregrind. I think they could stay. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Draconian: only source on the page or that I can find from a quick Google search that refers to them as part of the genre.
No objection, but again, let's wait for another editor.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
He calls them avant-garde metal, but his description screams gothic metal with death/doom elements. We should remove them. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Envy: source doesn't actually mention Envy. And it's the only source given to justify Envy's placement on the page.
Check page 2. This is specified in the citation.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm such a dumbass, I didn't notice that there were other pages. Sorry about that! The single source thing still stands, though, Envy generally aren't described as a metal band (unless I've just not looked at all the sources calling them such). --LordNecronus (talk) 21:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
No problem! Yeah, I agree that this one seems rather strange, considering that the band seems to be a post-hardcore group.--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
"Japan's experimental metal band Envy and Californian thrash band Trash Talk, two groups whose music suits the night's gory vibe". That's unclear and misleading. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC) Comment ammended. Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Since the source for Envy has the same problems of the source for All That Remains, should I go ahead and remove it? Besides, what does "two groups whose music suits the night's gory vibe" mean precisely? Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
This might be why the band was labeled as experimental metal.--¿3family6 contribs 01:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm thinking of submitting Rhapsody for an RSN discussion, so this issue may get cleared up then.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
They are clearly not experimental metal. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Even if Rhapsody is reliable (which I think it is), this listings are pretty much the same as Allmusic, whose tags are unreliable.--¿3family6 contribs 01:21, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
  • King Crimson: only source given to back up KC's placement, it's a non-metal site written by people who are not experts on metal, and it refers to a single album of theirs briefly as "avant-metal" instead of either of the genre's actual names (the ones we need to see mentioned in order for the band to be sourced).
Rolling Stone not reliable!? The better objection is the use of "avant-metal." The reason for inclusion is that Jeff Wagner uses the term as a synonym for avant-garde metal in his book Mean Deviation when discussing The End Records. I knew that KC and LZ would get an objection, the question is whether "avant-metal" in this context equals "avant-garde metal."--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I should probably have just stuck with criticising "avant-metal". However, I think the criticism of mine that holds the most water is that both bands only have the one source each; KC might have some other source somewhere on the internet backing up their placement on this list, but I have doubts that LZ are referred to as part of the genre outside that Ænima review. For bands like these two that are pretty controversial placements, does it make sense to put them on the list without multiple sources? --LordNecronus (talk) 21:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Agree with you here.--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
"Larks' Tongues in Aspic - Part IV" and "Nobody's Fault but Mine" sounds like avant-garde metal to me. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Your opinion is not a reliable source. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I know my opinion is not a reliable source, I was only saying that King Crimson and Led Zeppelin have heavy metal and experimental elements. I think other sources calling Larks' Tongues in Aspic avant-metal can be found. Presence sounds like a mix of heavy metal and electric blues with progressive rock tendencies, but I don't think there are other sources for it and it seems out of place here. Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Led Zeppelin: only source given to back up Led Zep's placement, non-metal site written by people who aren't experts on metal, article is on another band entirely and only refers to Led Zep in passing as "avant-metal".
See KC above.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Mogwai: only source given to back up Mogwai's placement, and the exact quote is "If Mogwai hadn’t been inching toward experimental metal before, it is now" -- they're not explicitly referred to as part of the genre.
No problems here, I was unsure of how good this was originally, and figured if it wasn't good it would be challenged. I'll go ahead and remove.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
That Mogwai source was fine, it mentioned they are experimental metal, even if they still comfortably fit into other genres. Just my opinion as an inclusionist but I'm sure editors like blackbarry share this view Syxxpackid420 (talk) 22:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't say that they are experimental metal, it says that they were inching towards experimental metal. Not the same thing. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether they belong here, but you have to admit that "Like Herod" and "We're No Here" use post-metal riffs. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
See the King Crimson thing above; your opinion is not a reliable source. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I've no idea whether you're agreeing or disagreeing but i found another source. http://www.metal-army.com/?p=17129 Syxxpackid420 (talk) 19:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
The source doesn't use the term in reference to Mogwai's style, and doesn't look reliable anyway.--¿3family6 contribs 19:53, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Dunno about its reliability, but it doesn't refer to them as part of the style at all so I don't see why it should be used to back up Mogwai's placement on the list. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
"There's enough experimental black metal and death metal, and plenty of metal-minded instrumental outfits, that what these guys do could translate to these fickle masses." I had misread this as saying "There's enough experimental black and death metal in what these guys do." Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Mortification: only source given to back up their placement, and the site itself doesn't seem like a reliable source.
Site is reliable (see Tourniquet below). Single source is more of the issue.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
  • My Dying Bride: there isn't even a source given -- I clicked the number by their name and there's text at the bottom saying "Wagner 2010, pg.245." that doesn't link to anything.
Source calls them "avant-garde doom/death." As doom/death is a heavy metal subgenre, I didn't see a problem.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
If the source definitely calls them avant-garde doom/death, then there's no problem at all. I just wanted to see the statement in context. --LordNecronus (talk) 21:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I probably need to put a url in for the Mean Deviation sources. Originally I had it down at the bottom with the book, but it was changed, probably by me, to a wikilink.--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
"At the Gates [...] immortalized themselves with 1996's Slaughter of the Soul, yet their early albums were more unorthodox. Their unusually titled debut, The Red in the Sky Is Ours, credited one of the members, Jesper Jarold, with violin. The only other notable band incorporating violin into metal at that time was UK avant-garde doom/death act My Dying Bride. For At the Gates, unlike the Englishmen, violin dabbling proved to be a brief phase." See snippets here, here and here. Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Pentagram: only source given to back up their placement, and it's a book on Syd Barrett (aka not a book on metal) written by someone who is not an expert of metal, and it only refers to Pentagram in passing (explaining that Syd Barrett influenced "the avant-garde metal of Yakuza and Pentagram").
This came up before. I'll let another editor weigh in on this one.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Pentagram is avant-garde metal, so I propose we remove them and find another source for Yakuza. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Tourniquet: only source given to back up their placement, and the site itself doesn't seem like a reliable source. (it also refers to them as "progressive and experimental thrash" instead of explicitly referring to them as part of the genre, but if the source is unreliable like I suspect then that's irrelevant)
Johannes Jonsson is the author of the site, and he is heavy metal writer and works in the Christian metal scene in Sweden and broader Scandinavia. So the source is reliable.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
The source might be able to back Tourniquet up (I've seen them get referred to as prog metal elsewhere, not quite relevant enough for this article but prog metal bands do often get described as experimental metal), but his site is literally the only place I've seen that describes Mortification as experimental in any way, shape or form, let alone part of the experimental metal genre. On a mostly unrelated, non-neutral note that shouldn't be taken seriously as part of the discussion, the stuff I've read from him indicate to me that, while he may be an expert on the Christian metal scene, he doesn't know much about the secular metal scene; he calls one band "melodic guitar metal" in the Mortification source ("guitar metal"? As opposed to "drum metal" or "bass metal"?). --LordNecronus (talk) 21:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree about Mortification, I thought that was really strange when I saw it. Tourniquet is probably questionable as well (they are very proggy, but not really experimental), so I'm not going to fight this, I would just want to know what some other editors think. "Guitar metal" is probably neo-classical metal (even without the context that was my first thought, and considering that it is Narnia, this confirms my personal suspicions), and I'm pretty sure this term is thrown around by a lot of other sources. I agree that it is something made up, but music journalists do that all the time. It doesn't mean that they don't also use real terms. But this is a rabbit trail anyway.--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I think we should remove Mortification and Tourniquet as they're not truly experimental. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I've only done the ones that seem particularly out-of-place to me, once all this is done I (or someone else) might go through the list again to weed out any not-so-ridiculous bands that made it onto the list without a decent source. --LordNecronus (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this! I've put my comments in with each listing.--¿3family6 contribs 17:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello to both of you. I'm concerned about the inclusion of some artists on this list such as Agalloch whose source ([1]) does not indicate the genre: I've seen the word "experiments" but this does not mean "experimental metal".Curb Chain (talk) 21:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

But it does say this: "its eclectic, avant-garde folk-metal was the sort of thing one would expect to emerge from Scandinavia -- not Portland, [Oregon]". So it does indicate genre. Nite-Sirk (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
It indicates that it is "metal", not "experimental metal".Curb Chain (talk) 02:00, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
It does indicate that it is avant-garde metal and folk metal. Nite-Sirk (talk) 02:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't say so. The use of a hypen can indicate that the author is using "folk" as an adjective, not categorizing the music in that genre.Curb Chain (talk) 02:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Another source uses the term as well. As folk-metal is metal, avant-garde folk metal = avant-garde metal substyle.--¿3family6 contribs 13:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
"avant-garde folk-metal" is pretty unambiguous, I don't really mind whether Agalloch are on the list or not but both sources are reliable (regardless of how much I dislike Allmusic) and explicitly refer to the band as part of the style. I think they should stay. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree that is unambiguous. Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I do not think that rhapsody is a reliable source to determine genres, considering how it's not a music information website and is instead a music sharing website, and how it is not free. Therefore, Rhapsody should not be a factor in determining genres for bands. I hate to say the following, but I don't think I have too much to say about whether bands are "expermiental metal" or not. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 05:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm okay if Rhapsody is unreliable, but Artistdirect is basically the same thing and is considered reliable. And the articles/editorials on Rhapsody are free.--¿3family6 contribs 16:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Why isn't Korn here?[edit]

Everything about them says they are avante-garde metal. The started the Nu Metal Genre, and they frequently expirement with atypical instruments, like bagpipes, glass harmonicas, and even LFOs. If Napalm Death, Led Zeppelin, and System of a Down are here than Korn should be here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.3.236 (talk) 04:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a source, go ahead and add them.--¿3family6 contribs 12:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Angizia[edit]

Angizia is a maddeningly obscure project, while highly regarded among connoisseurs; a classic "best kept secret". Definitely fits the bill though. Have trouble finding RS for the classification, however (MusicMight has them, but doesn't mention avant-garde/experimental anything, strangely). Not sure which can be used and which not. Would appreciate help. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Alchemist[edit]

This is probably the only (if not very few) band to encorepelate aboriginal, middle-eastern, electronic, psychedelic, prog rock and death metal elements and balance them out in music.Waterfiend (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Rammstein[edit]

Rammstein was a pioneer in the Neue Deutsch Harde genre of music.Waterfiend (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Anaal Nathrakh[edit]

This is an interesting combination of many extrememetal styles.Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Rings of Saturn[edit]

Pioneers of aliencore.Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Cradle of filth[edit]

Has a unique mixture of Gothic and extreme metal elements.Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Bathory[edit]

For being the 1st viking and black metal band, in combination.Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Death[edit]

First ever death metal band.Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Rhapsody of Fire[edit]

Influenced the genre Power metal.

Questionable?[edit]

Shoudl some of the early Sweedish death metal bands here. (Sorry if I'm wrong, I don't know as much about the Sweedish DM bands and if theyr'e tehre. Could someone who is more confident conform if tehyw ere emntioned?)Waterfiend (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2015 (UTC) And whow as the first symphonic black metal (was it Dimmu Borgir, I honestly couldn't say). And what about bands like Suffocation who pioneered the vocal technique for their really brutal vocals. And should we add an early blackened eath metal band (e.g. behemoth), but I honestly couldn't say as I'm not familiar with who was the early innovator of this genre. Waterfiend (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Deli Creeps[edit]

Why do they keep getting removed? They are far less ambiguously experimental metal than most the bands on the list. Is it some problem with Wikipedia's citation policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.219.236.163 (talk) 11:41, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

The problem isn't with the policy, it's that, so far, there haven't been any sources given that label the band as "avant garde metal" or "experimental metal." I've done a Google search myself and haven't found anything so far. Of course, there might be print sources that aren't accessible online.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:42, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

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