Talk:List of heavy metal genres/archive 1
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It would be helpful to me if the following bands were either classified or explicitly not classified for some reason:
--Crag 20:18, 2004 Mar 1 (UTC)
- Anthrax is considered one of the 'Big Four' (Anthrax, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer) of Bay-area thrash. Pantera has played a number of styles, including speed and power metal (their lesser known earlier albums) and are considered 'groove metal' by some metal purists. I wouldn't recommend using Pantera as seminal examples of any genre. Same goes for Sepultura, who went from death/thrash, to thrash, and now make what most consider hardcore. --Egregius 16:47, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Anthrax are thrash. Pantera were once a hair band, and later became post-thrash, and Sepultura were once a death metal band, then became post-thrash, then became nu-metal.MetalGoodness 03:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sepultura have only done one hardcore album they are a thrash/death crossover band they used to be what I would describe as ethnic metal. They are not, nor I imagine will they ever be a nu-metal band. Right now one might discribe them as post death metal or post death/thrash or just extreme metal. Unregistered text offender 13:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
actually i should have said tribal metal not ethnic metal well maybe. Unregistered text offender 13:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- 1 Heavy Metal Wiki
- 2 Math Metal
- 3 Descriptions
- 4 Viking Metal
- 5 Addition of Troll Metal and ex. of Folk/Viking Metal bands
- 6 dillenger escape plan
- 7 Hardcore
- 8 Tool
- 9 Goth metal
- 10 Noise metal on AfD
- 11 Nu-metal / Metalcore?
- 12 Epic Metal
- 13 Speed Metal
- 14 Regarding Nu-Metal
- 15 Rap Metal
- 16 List of "Heavy Metal" genres?
- 17 Cyber metal
- 18 Aggro
- 19 Took off genres.
- 20 Leyasu
Heavy Metal Wiki
Anyone else think there needs to be one using the wikimedia engine? The only thing resembling that is Encyclopedia Metallum, but that's run by some childish fools who embody the stereotypical burnout metalhead kids everyone mocks. Contact me for more info MetalGoodness 03:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps. However, i dislike that it would probally be run by idiots just like those on The Metal Archives, aka, Encyclopedia Metallum. However if yew start one, i will help. I however do not endorse it as a Encylcopedia, nor do i endorse you avertising it on Wikipedia. Ley Shade 12:36, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Leyasu, i just find it offensive to disrespect the Encyclopedia Metallum, as it is the best archive for finding info on bands and discographies, lyrics etc. - Paulo
- I disagree because its full of wrong information, mis-catagorisation, and insults to bands and fans. Most of what is on there is 99% crap. Ley Shade 21:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes i did apologise, in response to leyasu. you can always edit metal archives if you see something wrong, ive changed quite a lot of stuff over the years. Although if you know of a better site, please let me know. - Paulo
- From an outsiders point of view it seems that Paulo's issue started with MetalGoodness, yet I see no reposte here or on their user page. In any case, unless you're seriously claiming WP:NPA there's no reason to remove text which expresses users personal opinions on a talk page, however strongly stated. Deizio 21:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- Just a word on the Encyclopedia Metallum, Ley Shade, I actually think it is the most reliable web source on metal. Honestly, better and more accurate than most of what's on Wikipedia (one reason for this is of course that there is no bio on the bands, just dates, names and other easily verifiable stuff). I use it all the time as a reference when looking for info on metal bands and never found anything wrong. However if I'm wrong to do so, please show me an example of misinformation on it, I'd really hate to base much of my info on a wrong source. Thanks --IronChris 02:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
If we do it with metal why not everything else then then there won't be a wikipedia anymore won't that be fun. there is a much larger reason why this should never be done (except when you want to have different formats or rules) its because it causes people to be very insular and not find out anything about anything else atleast thats the short version. Unregistered text offender 13:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- I was about to say the same thing, but it does get 23000 google hits... Tuf-Kat 04:37, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
I happen to think that many of these terms are going to far but wikipedia isn't about how things should be its about how things are and the fact of the matter is like it or not people or atleast jernalists like to clasify things, as for the term math metal i thought it's ussually refered to as mathcore as it grew pretty much out of the grindcore sceneUnregistered text offender 13:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the removal of the description paragraphs because I think they make the list much better. Tuf-Kat 21:46, May 3, 2004 (UTC)
Why use list descriptions when separate articles are available for all styles?
- Well, firstly because you've added most of the remainder in the past half an hour, and secondly as an index. -- Jim Regan 02:36, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
I would imagine that the idea is to have brief disscriptions here and much larger ones in the main articles, if you've got an encyclopedia you don't want to open it and find just a bunch of lists do you? Unregistered text offender 13:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm missing viking metal. There's a wikipage for it. A genre pioneered by Bathory on their third album: Blood Fire Death. --Egregius 16:47, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Addition of Troll Metal and ex. of Folk/Viking Metal bands
On the matter of genres, the band "Finntroll"(Finland) comes to mind as an example of what can be called Troll Metal. Looking at this page www.fact-index.com/t/tr/troll_metal.htmlgives a larger list of what some consider Troll Metal. Actually Finntroll can even be considered Folk Metal due to their inclusion of a Finnish Polka (Humppa) sound. Please consider adding Troll Metal as another genre.
I would like those more knowing than I to consider adding "Otyg"(Sweden) and "Vintersorg"(Sweden) to the list of examples of Folk Metal. Also, please consider adding the band "Einherjer"(Norway) as an example of Viking Metal. Thanks.
the only reason why the term troll metal exists (and i might add its a derogetry one) is because mortiis dresses like a troll and because of finntroll's name. However mortiis is clearly industrial metal and as for finntroll and similar bands if they really have to be made into a subgenre of folk metal then it should be refered to as humppa or oommppa metal or if you want something that sounds less silly to western ears then polka metal. Unregistered text offender 13:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Bands go on the articles for lists of bands of a given type. As such all 'examples of bands' are going to be removed from this article to cease arguments. Ley Shade 14:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- for a start i do not think that argument is a bad thing secondly if you do feel the need to remove examples then perhaps you should only do so to the most contentsious examples and thirdly something should only be considered to be a genre when it has been siriously mentioned by a number of music jurnolists Unregistered text offender 14:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
dillenger escape plan
Any opinions on what category Dillenger Escape Plan should belong to?
- Math metal.--KASchmidt 05:52, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hardcore, absolutely. While they have some differences from bands typically described as "hardcore," I've attended two of their concerts and can say from personal experience that the stage presentation and the mosh pit are 100% hardcore. Additionally, the vast majority of their fan base is hardcore. I hope nobody minds that I actually went ahead and put DIllinger as hardcore?
- zelmerszoetrop (i haven't got an account, but I come here all the time.)
- I say extreme metal but i'd accept math metal or mathcore Unregistered text offender 13:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Dillinger have nothing to do with Extreme Metal, apart from Extreme Metal not being a genre. They work and play in the Hardcore scene, if you want to split hairs over what form of Hardcore, the Hardcore article is over there *Points* Ley Shade 14:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I think Hardcore should be 'promoted' to a fully recognized genre. I know it's a big change, so I won't do it myself, but what do you all think? It has grown by leaps and bounds in recent years, and nobody can doubt that hardcore is quickly generating a little subcultre (e.g., the very brutal pits as opposed to other genres one might mosh to, the "straight edge" attitude among most of its fans, etc.)
- zelmerszoetrop (again)
- This is a list of Heavy Metal genres, not Punk ones. Punk genres go on the list for punk genres, not this one. Hardcore is not going on this list. Ley Shade 14:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's accurate to place Tool under the "nu metal" section, since the section more or less defines nu metal as having a pronounced hip-hop influence, when Tool has no hip-hop influence at all. - Theli 93
- Thanks for the change in regards to Tool. I re-added them under "progressive metal". My rationale is that the Progressive metal page lists Tool as a member of the genre, and the Tool page, under the genre controversy section, alludes to King Crimson (almost the definition of prog) being their primary influence. This makes all three pages consistent. - Theli 93
Shouldn't "goth metal" be in fusion genre box than in subgenre (and many say that there isn't even existing such genre)? Please make it more correct.
- Thats because Gothic Metal has nothing to do with Goth Rock, and its petty people who try to make an association when there is none. Please try reading articles before asserting wrong claims. Ley Shade 14:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Noise metal on AfD
There is currently a discussion going on about deleting Noise metal on the basis that it is not a notable genre of heavy metal. I ask the editors of this page to please join that discussion. Thanks. JoaoRicardo talk 19:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
it should be mentioned in the section on industrial metal Unregistered text offender 14:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Nu-metal / Metalcore?
Who the hell put those 2 in the article? Are you serious? It is a VERY well-known fact among metalheads that those 2 genres are not metal and never will be.
Nu-metal is obviously closer to rock than metal, and metalcore is definately core. Get your facts straight.
- Actually it's quite the opposite. Nu metal is influenced by a number of other genres, but it's still a metal subgenre. WesleyDodds 13:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- And Metalcore is counted by most as a subgenre of metal, only people who listen to metal bands who want to seem 'cool' to other older fans denounce the two genres as 'untrue' or 'unmetal'. Ley Shade 14:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
On both accounts this is border line metal. Nu metal is more rock than metal. And as such I do think it should go to the cross-over genres. Metalcore probably somewhere in between metal and core, much like grindcore. Probably should stay there for now. Than again I do "want to seem 'cool' to other older fans" ;-) Spearhead 21:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The last name/suffix, except in cases of outright fallacies of equivocation like "nu-metal", is the root genre. Metalcore therefore is a hardcore genre.
metalcore i have allways felt is a combination of classic metal such as judas priest and hardcore allthough it grew out of the hardcore scene it clearly has more of the metal ellement in it than the hardcore simply on the basis that hardcore has a metal influence in it as well basicaly metal plus punk with a bit of metal means that there is more metal than punk or hardcore Unregistered text offender 14:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Metalcore is not a true genre of metal; it is hardcore punk with metal influences. And Nu-Metal is a style of Alternative Metal with rapping/hip-hop influences. Alternative Metal is a type of rock music, that veers towards a 'metal' sound but still isn't metal. However because they have some kind of relation with metal, it should be notable. That's why they belong in the related genres section
- But metal is a genre of rock music. WesleyDodds 06:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed it is. But this is a section on just metal music, not other styles of rock. In Flames 18:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Nu-Metal and Metalcore are both forms of metal. If you are going to delete those two, then you had better delete Thrash, Death and Black Metal, because sonically the music they play has more in common with hardcore punk
Epic metal isnt just defined by "keyboarding considered to be intense", as very few Epic metal bands even use keyboard soloes often. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Gothic metal, go do some proper research. It is basically a fusion of Power metal and Symphonic metal.
- Yeah, that would be known as, this. Thus your theory is pretty, wrong. Especially when half the bands considered 'epic metal' are Gothic Metal bands. Ley Shade 09:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As per massive correction of POV/incorrect info in the speed metal article, I have corrected it here as well. See the speed metal article talk page before any reverts - I have already discussed this with others as you see, and the speed metal article was giving off CONFLICTING information previously (ie. having its roots in power/thrash even though it predates the genres? 100% incorrect.)
- there is some conflicting information regarding speed metal vs power metal. the speed metal article says it is a cross genre of thrash and power metal, whereas the power metal explains that helloween is a prime example and mixes speed metal with old school heavy metal. Also AFAIK, the term speed metal (80s - megadeth and metallica were often called speed metal) is older than power metal which is more a 90s term. Spearhead 15:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
In the article it states that metal enthusiasts think nu-metal is not an actual subgenre of heavy metal music, it should be noted that it seems to be extreme metal fans who are most common in voicing this opinion, the original fans of heavy metal are from the late 60s and early 70s... I have never seen, even after seaching extensively, evidence of them saying whether they think nu-metal is an actual subgenre of metal or not. thanks. - Deathrocker 09:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Which would be an appeal to authority fallacy if they did, anyways.
I, as a notorious fan of Rap Metal, would inform this article's authors that the reference about a genre such as this is in danger of being the most vandalized one here. In fact - but it's a foressen objection - I can easily perceive that most of the "tradtional heavy metal" fans cannot stand "commercial", "easy listening", "only-sex-focused" music (e.g. exactly rap/hip hop) and, consequently, can refuse to recognize Rap Metal/Rapcore as a "crossgenre".
For a start you should have put you're name in secondly the possibillity of people dissagreing with you isn't a reason to not say or write something even if they may allso vandalize it thirdly i have never heard it refered to as rapcore (though i can imagine the genre existing) and certainly not as the predominant term as that part of the piece suggests or implies. Unregistered text offender 14:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Rapcore is another name given to Rap Metal, which is used in conjuction with Alternative Metal to divide between Nu Metal bands that have Hip Hop influence, and those that dont. Ley Shade 14:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- rap metal seems to have come out of the hardcore and thrash metal scenes, i would imagine that groups such as "bad brains" could be refered to as rapcore where as "limp biscit" (atleast in their early years), and "hed (pe)" would be refered to as rap metal. also "korn" were in the past considered to have a strong hip hop influence but theve only ever been refered to as nu-metal. Unregistered text offender 13:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
List of "Heavy Metal" genres?
Why is this article called "List of heavy metal genres"? It must be just "List of metal genres". Because heavy metal is a genre, and for example, Black Metal is not a subgenre of heavy metal, it's only a subgenre of metal music. Heavy metal is a subgenre of metal, too. --Aeternus 17:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- coz heavy metal is also used as a more general term covering all its subgenres Spearhead 18:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I rather think that Cyber metal does exist, for the following reason: something becomes a genre when the term is used alot by jurnolists to discribe a particular type of band this is what has happened with this particular term the bands i mentioned fear factory, static X, spineshank have all had the term applyed to them in magazines. Unregistered text offender 10:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Cyber Metal is another name for Industrial Metal, so please see that article. Ley Shade 10:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- I suspect that cyber metal could referance a type metal that incorporates elements of dance music and hip hop genres primarilly more so than industrial but i'll check the other genres in the list to see if that amalgamation is covered under another title. Unregistered text offender 13:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed no dance music metal cross-over is mentioned in other genres although it could be considered to one of the ellements within nu-metal having said that the bands most often refered to as cyber metal seem to allso have a prog rock ellement to them not least because of their use of concept based songs and albums. Unregistered text offender 13:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Industrial Metal is the crossover of electronic based music and metal. The name comes from the fact many of the bands use genres associated with Industrial Music. Also note that many terms are coined, which are often names for the same thing. Cyber Metal is massivly reknown to mean Industrial Metal, its something you have to learn to live with. Ley Shade 13:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
perhaps cyber metal should be briefly mentioned as a synonym for industrial metal in that genres listing> Unregistered text offender 13:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I can't say I've ever heard of "Cyber Metal", though if its a form of dance music it shouldn't be just lumped in with Industrial Metal. As Industrial and Dance are two completely seperate genres themselves. - Deathrocker 16:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
perhaps if it only incorporates dance music then it should have its own genre title but it does incorporate alot of industrial ellements as well so i don't know, like i said if its a synonym for industrial metal then it should be mentioned as such, however it has to be said that the bands that get labeled cyber metal don't allways get labelled industrial metal as well and that they do seem to be different from alot of other industrial metal bands and they do seem to various ellements that link them together such as their lyrical topics and even the exact manner in which they incorporate the non metal ellements into their music. Unregistered text offender 16:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Cleared it up to fit in with the rest of the article. 184.108.40.206 18:32, 11 May
it has recently said that aggro is another form of nu-metal this would mean that ministry is a nu-metalband which is not the case as they pre-date it by about 14 - 16 years and their current style pre-dates it by i think something around 6 - 8 years, i mention ministry as from what i know aggro metal or just plain aggro was invented [the term atleast] by ministry's lead singer Al Jourgenson to make up for the over use of the term industrial. Unregistered text offender 12:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- for more on that, see List of industrial music subgenres#Aggro-industrial --MilkMiruku 14:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- it has been suggested that aggro is a different type of nu-metal i was just trying to clear that up if its in the industrial subgenres then obviously belongs in here and i shall be rectifying this misstake forthwith. Unregistered text offender 12:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok but is't aggro industrial kinda metal based it seems to be pre requisite of those bands that call themselves aggro that they have loud screeching metalised guitars i'm not sure weather this would make them metal based i suppose ministry started out as a synth pop band then an industrial one then aggro so........... Unregistered text offender 14:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Took off Alternative metal and nu-metal because they aren't genres of metal.
Took off genres.
Took off Alternative metal and nu-metal because they aren't genres of metal.
- I agree with the fact alternative metal and nu-metal (not to mention metalcore) and not true forms of metal. However I think a new section should be added, for metal that isn't strictly 'true metal' but has influences from it.
- Just moved around some of the genres to their rightful places without deleting them.
- Who defines what's a "true" genre of metal? Nu metal and alternative metal are covered in a number of sources (particularly the ones referenced on Heavy metal music) as styles of heavy metal. This seems like bias to me. WesleyDodds 06:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I added Melodic Death Metal to the Death Metal section, as I feel it is important 220.127.116.11 00:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I removed it. Please understand that the Melodic Death Metal article is currently under revision to be merged into the Death Metal article after it has been revised. Thus, it doesnt belong here. Good work anyways. 02:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
Please stop reverting the changes made without discussing why.
Thrash metal as stated in its own article is NWOBHM mixed with hardcore punk, bands before Thrash existed used double bass drums (Motörhead, for example) so they can't have started it... there is really no reason to revert such changes. - Deathrocker 07:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
As shown above, I've requested that the user (who is using an anon to avoid a block) discuss reasons for making reverts of perfectly good edits. Nobody else seems to have a problem with the edit. He won't even voice what he thinks is wrong with the section, seems to be trouble making with no good reason. Feel free to discuss any issues with it or stop verting it, thanks. - Deathrocker 14:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Your revert parole states one revert a day, the same as mine. Also understand that the Thrash Metal article i have also reverted. Thats because of the same reasons as the ones here. I chased up the history and found it was changed by someone who, non the less, tried to violate WP:NPOV with a similar article.
- The other problem is your wording. Without being nasty about it, you seem to not understand what neutral wording is. I would correct it, but many times there is nothing to work with other than a completely POV statement.
- Other than that, you may not want to start a war with me when your Abririttion Case is still on the go. My actions should not denote yours, so i suggest steering clear of a war. 18.104.22.168 23:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The arbitration case hasn't closed yet. A revert parole is proposed but not closed yet. What exactly is your problem here?... you don't even like Thrash metal or seem to know about it. Thrash isn't influenced by the likes of Blue Cheer or Led Zeppelin... they're influenced by the likes of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest (who are NWOBHM bands.)... as stated previous, Motörhead also used double bass drums before thrash even existed, thus meaning Thrash wasn't the first movement in metal to ever use it.
Nevermind, I can source it anyway. (not that it needs it as its common sense to everybody else who edits on this article) - Deathrocker 08:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Some of what yew put 'may' be correct, regardless of the fact that Maiden, Judas and Motörhead are all, ironically, Thrash Metal. The term NOWBHM refers to 'any' British Metal band. Power Metal bands such as Dragonforce are also known as NWOBHM. Try not contradicting every other article when trying to make a point.
No it doesn't, New Wave of British Heavy Metal is and always has been, the second wave of Heavy Metal that emmerged after the original metal movement died and punk took over in the late 70s. All you have to do is read the info about NWOBHM on this very article to figure this out. - Deathrocker
- I have to agree with Deathrocker. The phrase was specifically coined to refer to the second wave of British metal that emerged in the wake of punk rock. Certainly it inspired quite a few subgenres, but the genre itself refers to a specific time and place. WesleyDodds 21:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Leyasu, in your edit are you defining "heavy metal" as "classic" metal, or to refer to the entire genre in this case? maxcap 15:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Point remains, NWOBHM is a regional scene of Heavy Metal. There is many times no actual musical connection between many bands termed NWOBHM, and the term has been used for more recent bands regardless of the purpose for its coining. 15:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
"regardless of the fact that Maiden, Judas and Motörhead are all, ironically, Thrash Metal."
- I presume that was a joke, you may want to visit the articles of those bands, because you'll find you're gravely incorrect. - Deathrocker 16:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Speed Metal is Thrash/Power. With them saying Speed it only proved my point. 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
You are basically trolling now. I've cited the information, yet you persist in vandalising it by changing it to information which is not contained in the link.
Speed metal does not just apply to "Thrash and Power metal" it applies to a wide range of musical genres X-Japan for example are neither Thrash nor Power metal, yet they are Speed metal. If you don't know what you are talking about and aren't versed in that spercific area at all, why continue scupper the efforts of people who are trying to work on the article civily? You shouldn't even be editing articles with IP's anyway as you are supposed to be serving a month long block (!) - Deathrocker 02:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry but you do not invalidate everyone elses sources simply because you like one of your own. Also see WP:NOT. Youve also violated WP:3RR. I warned yew not to start a war with me, your the one that didnt listen.
- So, if you want to break policy, go ahead, but i can do it all day, as you wont push your POV over me. Also, my block already ended, NUH, TRY AGAIN.
- Third off, the Speed Metal article says its beginning to apply to other forms. Dont try to be condescending with me when your on the exact same revert parole, and have had far longer blocks for trying to POV Push before. 10:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
I'm not getting into your little game where you are attempting to bait me..
You persisted in pushing something which you have shown on this page you have absolutely no clue about, using anonymous IPSs while blocked, and even Wesley a member of the WP:HMM has attempted to get it through to you what NWOBHM means, face it you don't know what you're talking about here, other editers do.
There are no "other peoples sources" provided, you are the lone ranger who is vandalising that part of the article. I provided the only source which is included in that part of the article.  a source which states "In the late '70s, a cache of British bands dubbed the New Wave of British Heavy Metal (including Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Motörhead) started playing metal faster, leaner, and with more menace than ever before. They helped influence a new American metal scene known as thrash in the '80s,"
There it is clear as day. Changing it so it just says "heavy metal" when the source states differently and you know so is "simple vandalism", and you are editing while blocked, so it does not get chalked up as part of WP:3RR as stated on the page.
You requested I cite; I provided a source. I've even now added two more sources, to back up everybody elses common sense, in an atempt to apease you,  one of which is a direct quote from an actual Thrash band Hirax, End of.
You are litterely the only person who seems to think Thrash is not influenced by NWOBHM, please source the claim that anybody else on planet earth agrees with your edit. - [[User:Deathrocker|