Talk:List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

A fresh start[edit]

Now that Transformers2000 has been indef blocked for sockpuppetry, and Ciobanu Oilor for being one of their socks, I think we should start to move forward without the distraction of someone whose only interest was to add names to the list.

Let's begin with Kierzek's last two comments, from a thread I just archived:


I agree with BMK. "There is no standard for what a 'major perpetrator of the Holocaust' actually means". The page needs reorganized. The top people involved is easy enough to agree upon, I would think. It is the "others", included by other editor's over time, which need scrutiny. Some that should be included (besides the so-called top dogs) would be: Theodor Eicke, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Oswald Pohl, Richard Glücks, Odilo Globočnik, Heinrich Müller, Rudolf Höss, Philipp Bouhler (T4), Karl Brandt (T4); not a complete list, but ones that come to mind for inclusion. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Unless, I missed seeing him with the run through this too long list, Friedrich Jeckeln should be included. Command over and direct involvement in Einsatzgruppen murder death squads and over mass killings in USSR. And more than a functionary, developed his own method of killing large numbers of people. With this said, I believe all deputy commanders listed should be deleted. Kierzek (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with those statements that the names Kierzek specifies should stay on the list, and that deputy commanders should be removed from it. I would make an exception for Hamman, who was sort of a de facto commander as leader of a quasi-independent group that killed tens of thousands of Lithuanians.

At this moment, realistically, Kierzek and I appear to be the only editors interested in shaping this list article, so our agreement makes a de facto consensus. However, I think we should wait a few days to see if anyone else turns up to comment, and go from there.

After the list is brought under control as consisting of only consensus major perpetrators of the Holocaust, then I think the next step is to source everybody, with the possible exceptions of the "sky is blue" entries such as Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Göring, Eichmann, et al. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:24, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I will remove the deputy commanders, except for Hamman. I reviewed both Günther brothers listed, and do not see them as major figures. They are functionaries. I will remove them, as well. Kierzek (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: Done for now. I did not need to add Jeckeln, he is on there towards the bottom. Which brings are another issue, listing people in a specific order to be decided; and not as it is now, a more random list (after the top people as listed). It still needs work and RS cites added, "with the... exceptions", as you state, BMK. Kierzek (talk) 21:50, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Sorry I haven't been active here - too much other stuff going on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Rosenberg[edit]

BMK, I believe Alfred Rosenberg should be removed; not a major perpetrator, for the same reasons Joseph Goebbels was removed. Kierzek (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm going to have to ponder that a bit, only because of Rosenberg's official position of Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. I recall that he was pretty much outmaneuvered by Hans Frank as head of the General Government, and was therefore not terribly influential in that role (just as he was outmaneuvered by Goebbels for the most part on the propaganda & culture front), but I don't recall specifically how involved Rosenberg got as Reich Minister in Holocaust-related activities. I'll do a bit of research and get back to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
That's fine. Kierzek (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Ok, start off with the fact that one of Rosenberg's representatives was at the Wannassee Conference, and you've got pretty damning prima facie evidence that Rosenberg and his ministry was a major participant. However, when you dig deeper, you find that while Rosenberg wanted to be a major player in the extermination of the Jews, and held the requisite ideological views (Hitler had to stop him from mentioning the extermination of the Jews in a public speech once, for political reasons), he was simply consistently outflanked by Himmler and Frank (especially Himmler), and ended up playing a negligible role, even though he remained in the loop. It wasn't for his lack of trying or desire, he just didn't have the pull within the Nazi system to get around Himmler, and Rosenberg's role was reduced in practical terms to a minor one.
    So, long story short, I agree, and I'm going to remove Rosenberg now, subject to re-addition if other editors disagree. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Erwin Lambert[edit]

@Beyond My Ken:, what do you think. A fairly close one between major perpetrator and functionary. Kierzek (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll have to do some research, which I probably can't get to until next week, due to RL activities. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 20 September 2019 (UTC)