Talk:List of ongoing armed conflicts

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August 2015[edit]

Turkey against PKK in Iraq[edit]

Shouldn't Turkey's airstrikes against PKK in Iraq be considered part of the Turkey-PKK conflict, instead of the Iraq war? The relevant Wikipedia article, Operation Martyr Yalçın, is classified as part of the Turkey-PKK conflict. Anyway, the 2015 Iraq war death toll includes only civilian fatalities for now, so PKK fatalities should be added either there or in the Turkey-PKK conflict death toll. Nykterinos (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You're right, that would be ideal. It implies to be aware not to count two times the victims. It would be also ideal to add non-civilian casulaties in the Iraq War count as well. But we remark also in the case of PKK fatalities that they have been counted as civilian fatalities. Wykx (talk) 13:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
The 2015 death toll for the Turkey-PKK conflict is still at 29, can someone compile a few sources and update it if they have a chance? I will do it as soon as I have some time, just noting that there has ben a string of attacks in the last few weeks that have killed a few dozen security forces, civilians and PKK members across Southeastern Turkey. Four officers were killed in a roadside bombing just a few hours ago, once more in Sirnak Province. Not sure how we can find ALL the events, but there was roughly an attack per day since the 'ceasefire' broke down. Skycycle (talk) 11:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Edit: yet another attack today alone - 1 soldier killed, 7 injured after their helicopter was shot at. ( Link) Skycycle (talk) 12:02, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
More than 400 killed in past two weeks according to Turkish sources - moving it to mid-intensity conflicts.GreyShark (dibra) 07:26, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, this mean Turkey should go from yellow to orange in the next map update as well. Skycycle (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
The source says “Turkish airstrikes have killed at least 390 PKK militants in northern Iraq”; so Turkey should remain yellow for now, because, according to the rule followed so far, when a conflict takes place across different countries, each country is coloured according to the number of fatalities taking place within it (see e.g. Nigeria-Cameroon-Niger-Chad), and in Turkey there have been less than 100 fatalities due to the Turkey-PKK conflict. Nykterinos (talk) 09:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
That is an interesting point you are raising. The practice has so far been to list countries as epicenters of certain conflicts, though indeed some conflicts occurred over two or more countries - Boko Haram insurgency, Syrian Civil War and now Turkey-PKK conflict. Overall, the map should reflect the table, but the fact is that conflicts are not necessarily bound to borders, thus perhaps we need to discuss this case in a broader way - how should it be shown on the map.GreyShark (dibra) 18:08, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
Here is how I see it: the map represents the locations listed in the table, and the guidelines say that “Location refers to the state(s) where the main violence takes place”. So, if a conflict takes place across different states (=has multiple locations), those states should be coloured, each according to the amount of violence taking place within it. In the same way, if different conflicts take place within the same state (like in DRC), that state should be coloured according to the sum of the fatalities of the different conflicts. Nykterinos (talk) 19:50, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
Well i think the main issue to be considered is what data we have available. Right now we basically only keep running tallies of how many people of have been killed in each conflict, rather than how many people in each state have been killed by conflict. Do we even have sufficent data to determine how many people have died in each country due to conflict? Some conflicts like the Insurgency in the Magreb we have practically no casualty data on for the entire conflict let alone each individual state (ie: Tunisia, Algeria, Mali, Niger, ect).XavierGreen (talk) 15:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
For the whole Africa, we have continuously updated data for each country by ACLED. For the Boko Haram insurgency and the Maghreb insurgency, you find the precise numbers for each State specified in the footnotes. Nykterinos (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

South-North Korea[edit]

The conflict seems to have new victims. Could you check and re-add it if necessary? Wykx (talk) 18:13, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but according to this, there are no fatalities.GreyShark (dibra) 13:54, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
ok thanks! Wykx (talk) 18:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
There were also two brief firefights last year, but they produced no reported casualties.XavierGreen (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Is this about ignoring ROKMC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeje1991 (talkcontribs) 03:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Moro conflict in Sabah[edit]

Was added with no prior discussion by user:Shhhhwwww!!. Can somebody check the sources and the context? Is is substantially different from the Moro insurgency in the Philippines?GreyShark (dibra) 20:30, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Abu Sayaf occasionally will launch attacks in Sabah, mostly related to kidnapping attempts. But these are a direct part of the insurgency in the Philippines. I am unaware of any ongoing insurgency in Sabah since the Sultanate of Sulu Kiramist factions invasion was repelled in 2013. There was one shootout that killed two militants on October 30, 2014, but its unclear to me if they were from the same faction or indeed any organized faction at all. I would say the evidence is currently against inclusion given that there seems to be no organized conflict ongoing.XavierGreen (talk) 23:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Burundi conflict[edit]

Seems that 2015 Burundi unrest is eligible for inclusion - casualties top 100 (77 killed by June 19, 3 killed on June 28th, 6 killed on early July, 3 political murders on July 24th 1 political murder - Aug 2nd, 5 gov-t officials killed Aug 5th, 1 political murder - Aug 15th, 4 killed in clashes Aug 19th) and armed clashes with the opposition occur every once and a while. Adding it.GreyShark (dibra) 13:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Is the armed opposition to the state organized? Or is it merely mob violance / independent actors or one way conflict with the state suppressing unarmed protesters violently.XavierGreen (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, certainly organized. I cannot prove that all the political killings were indeed politically-motivated and not crime, but the general perception is that there is Pierre Nkurunziza's government and there is opposition, with NFL likely being involved. To prove my point, i want to show this article Uganda's president starts mediation role in Burundi unrest and claim logically that mediation is not possible if there are no organized opponents (quote "Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni met with representatives of the Burundi government and opposition leaders in the nation's capital, Bujumbura, late Tuesday. The talks are being attended by Agathon Rwasa, the most prominent opposition leader in Burundi.").GreyShark (dibra) 16:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
I tried an updated compilation of ACLED data. There has been 42 rioters and 44 military mutineers killed by police and army as well as 83 (mostly) political victims of 'unidentified' armed groups. The unrest has reached now 169 casualties. Even if you exclude rioters I also believe we are now above 100. The link to 2015 Burundian unrest seems appropriate. Wykx (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Turkey-PKK conflict might become a major conflict[edit]

Recent report says the number of killed in the conflict tops 959 since July 20, with 9 additional victims from a more quiet phase between January to mid-July. With such rate, we will see this conflict becoming a major one (above 1000 killed per year) within days.GreyShark (dibra) 15:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I've coloured Turkey orange now that the conflict has crossed the 100 fatalities threshold in south-eastern Turkey. Nykterinos (talk) 11:17, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The conflict has just surpassed 1000 fatalities: 918 Kurds, 60 Turks, another 15 civilians (Turks & Kurds) + 7 tonight; 9 more had been killed prior to July escalation.GreyShark (dibra) 04:31, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I see you've moved the conflict to the "more than 1,000 fatalities" section, but we usually use the lower estimate of fatalities to classify a conflict (see, for example, South Sudan, which provoked more than 10,000 deaths last year according to the higher estimate). Anyway, thanks for including the claims of both parties to the conflict: the Turkish government figure for PKK fatalities seems very high, and could be inflated for obvious reasons. Nykterinos (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks - in my experience we actually use the upper threshold. I agree this is something to discuss - because often the numbers differ greatly.GreyShark (dibra) 21:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Right now, the lower estimate is being used for South Sudan (6,383-40,000+ in 2014) and is always used as sortable number. Since the sorting feature of the table orders conflicts on the basis of the lower estimate of fatalities, it would be logic, in my opinion, to classify them on the basis of the lower estimate, too. Nykterinos (talk) 09:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
I also favor the lower estimate. It happens that the lower estimate is not really accurate (the Libya body count was factually underestimated) and in that case it shouldn't be mentioned. Wykx (talk) 09:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
@Wykx and Nykterinos: i started discussion below.GreyShark (dibra) 21:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Turkey should be red. Turkey had more than 1000 fatalities due to Turkey-PKK conflict this year.SVG file needs editing.Kgkadd (talk) 22:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kgkadd (talkcontribs) 11:04, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment - @Wykx: - updated fatalities of Turkey-PKK conflict due to new releases from Turkey and PKK: we are certainly above 1,000 in both versions now.GreyShark (dibra) 18:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - @Wykx: i saw your last update, which included downgrading the conflict and though we are friends, i have some criticism: apparently you made a typical statistic evaluation mistake by counting Cmin=Amin+Bmin; Cmax=Amax+Bmax (mixing up Turkish and PKK evaluations). The lowest estimate cannot be the low estimate of Turks plus the low estimate of PKK, because the combined numbers are quite similar: PKK claim about 1,000 killed not including civilians, whereas Turks claim ~2,000 dead total - the total is hence similar, but the composition rebels/military/civilians is varying. There was a similar case with Israel-Gaza conflict, when Israel and Hamas claimed different militant/civilian ratios, but the totals were quite similar. Therefore, we cannot say that the minimal casualty estimate is 130+100+26=256, but the minimum of totals from Turkish side or PKK (plus civilians counted by HDP, since PKK don't publish civilian deaths) side - min(2165,1147).GreyShark (dibra) 19:09, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
In this conflict each party seems very prompt to claim the attacks done by the other side. Maybe it is more true for the civilians deathtoll than for the militants where it would mean recognizing that they are loosing forces. Anadolu agency is an pro-Turkish regime newsagency and its latest figures [1] mentions "only" 260 PKK rebels killed, which is widely under the government claims. That's why I tend to disagree with figures over 1000. I think now we can consider reasonably 9 (before 20 July) + 260 PKK rebels + 130 security forces + 35 civilians (Anadolu agency for those figures) + 95 civilians today = 529 in total Wykx (talk) 23:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
@Wykx: First of all, thank you for the reply and good faith, i really think you are a great editor. Regarding your source on 260 PKK casualties [2] - it is outdated (it is from August 2nd), so it makes sense that there were 260 PKK killed in the first 9 days of strikes, but it is not relevant now. You can check the date of your source yourself.GreyShark (dibra) 06:34, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
@Greyshark09: Ok point taken. I hope independant sources such as NGOs will help in the future to refine figures for that conflict. And don't hesitate to continue to challenge, it is sometimes difficult to tackle the huge volume of contradictory informations! Wykx (talk) 11:05, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
@Wykx: Thanks for your feedback and sure we need more independent sources to confirm, but the current ones are also giving a reasonable, though not complete, picture. My respects to you.GreyShark (dibra) 14:18, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - by the way, do we include the recent Ankara bombing in the PKK rebellion deathtoll ? I have mixed feelings about this - on one hand it was related with the conflict; on another it was likely done by a third party (ISIL sympathizers). Wdyt?GreyShark (dibra) 17:27, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
@Greyshark09: The 2015 Suruç bombing has got the same status and was included because it triggered the conflict even if maybe driven by a third party. It may happen that this new bombings will have impact in the Turkey-PKK conflict anyway and are clearly a manipulation of this conflict. Wykx (talk) 18:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
So far i have not included the Suruc bombing and the Ankara bombing casualties within the PKK rebellion death toll (neither here nor at the 2015 PKK rebellion page).GreyShark (dibra) 18:08, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

September 2015[edit]

Conflict in Tajikstan[edit]

Islamist fighters linked to dismissed deputy defense minister General Abduhalim Nazarzoda attacked government forces near the capital of Tajikstan today, so far 17 people have been killed. It could be the start of a new armed conflict in the country. See here [[3]].XavierGreen (talk) 16:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting, can you add it to the incubator watch list?GreyShark (dibra) 21:54, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
Firefights between the renegadge generals forces and the government continue. So far at least 30 have been killed, and 70 rebels captured. See here: XavierGreen (talk) 19:06, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Casualties are now up to 38 killed, however the leader of the rebels has been killed in action, and it seems likely that the violence will die down. [[4]]XavierGreen (talk) 12:54, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Fatalities are now up to 47 killed. [[[5]]XavierGreen (talk) 12:26, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Time of Israel-arab conflict[edit]

It didn't start at 1948. there were Arab attacks on Jews in the Land of Israel long before (i.e. 1929 Hebron massacre)-- (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The listing is only for Palestinian conflict (with PLO and later Hamas), which began in 1964. The earlier are the general Arab-Israeli conflict (mainly 1948-73) and preceding Sectarian conflict in Mandatory Palestine (1920-1948). Those are not exactly continuous however, as the organizations and the states changed significantly over time. GreyShark (dibra) 21:52, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
Technically you can claim it started in 1929 since this traditionally mark the beginigs of the conflict (No need for source because:) but we are reffering to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which is different then the Intercommunal violence in Mandatory Palestine since the Jews and the Arabs fought against each other but also fought against the brits and sometimes sided with the brits agaisnt the other party while the brits generally fought both groups. --Bolter21 13:05, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Arab Israeli conflict couldn't have started before there was Israel and Arab League - the two belligerents, both created in late 1940s. claiming it is same as previous sectarian conflict is anachronism.GreyShark (dibra) 17:33, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
That's exactly what I"ve claimed. --Bolter21 21:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
We agree then.GreyShark (dibra) 15:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

October 2015[edit]

Paraguayan People's Army Insurgency[edit]

Why the Paraguayan People's Army Insurgency was removed from the "list of ongoing armed conflicts" article if the conflict is still ongoing and there have been reports of people killed related to the insurgency this year and the previous one — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The total number of persons killed of this conflict (it seems around 60) is under 100 which is the threshhold to be included in this list. Wykx (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
exactly.GreyShark (dibra) 19:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Israeli-Palestinian conflict[edit]

I have a strange observation that every single casualty is listed in that conflict, resulting in about one half of the updates on this page being on this basis, even though this is one of the least active conflicts today in the world. We have a total estimate from some sources on this conflict, while some other conflicts indeed require a more frequent updating.GreyShark (dibra) 09:33, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

m8 that's our problem, B'tselem havent updated their casualties list since 31 August and since then there were some 40 casualties in different incidents --Bolter21 15:45, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I can't do it myself, please investigate on 4 attacks that occured today in Israel Jerusalem, as far as I know, 3 Jews were killed but I am not sure about how many Arabs. One man died yesterday in Pisgat Ze'ev, Jerusalem in a knife incident, another one died in gun stealing attmempt in Jerusalem, on man died in Hadasa ein Karem hospital after being involved in one of the attacks. So to sum up, since yesterday I know that at least 6 people should be added, if you can, search for sources. --Bolter21 11:29, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly my point - most of your edits deal with 3 people killed, while in other conflicts thousands die in one day. There is a serious emphasis problem here. Perhaps an obsession.GreyShark (dibra) 17:31, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Not an obsession, I contribute wikipedia with what I know and I read the news everyday, my news are in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no reason to critisize me if you have a lack of editors with knowlege on other conflicts. I reduced the number of source with another source I found today from yesterday. --Bolter21 15:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
And although you asked me in such an impolite way, I"ve decided to edit other things too, so don't whine on a legitimate contribution because you think I can do more. All the casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be listed here and I will guarantee it. --Bolter21 15:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh i will whine! I'm afraid however, the Israelis and Palestinians are not going to provide you with much news, unlike their more violent neighbours in the Mid-East, so you might get bored at some point and begin a table of flustrated Israelis and Palestinians in this low-level conflict.GreyShark (dibra) 19:06, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
So indeed you are critisizing me for contributing what I know? You are the one with two barnstars for the Syrian Civil war, not me. And I have yet to fully understand how to use this ACLED source --Bolter21 07:44, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Bolter, the initial comment of mine was not intended for you alone. I think you are taking it too personally. I sincerely hope you would contribute as good as you have already done and not only in one conflict. Thumbs up.GreyShark (dibra) 11:28, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Alright, I just couldn't stand a any sort of critic to this spesific edits. Maybe the words "Perhaps an obsession" made me feel that way. Anyway I started taking intrest in the other conflicts too, I wasn't aware to the update problem. --Bolter21 15:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
The principle of Wikipedia is that each person can contribute in its own domain of expertise, there are some very specific pages which are constantly updated and up-to-date in fields that matter to a very few so I don't see the point to be up-to-date. Moreover the information seems more accurate on Israel-Palestine because a lot of media are covering this conflict contrary to Afghanistan (conflict #2) for example. Wykx (talk) 07:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Katanga insurgency[edit]

I'm afraid we are missing the death toll there. Anyone can take a responsibility to update it?GreyShark (dibra) 19:09, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

According to ACLED, there is no death this year in Katanga. It can be explained indeed because on 6 January 2015 the leader of the FDLR rebels had been arrested. Moreover the situation with the Mai-Mai has improved a lot. The conflict is only still active in the South Kivu province which is listed here separately even if some of the actors are the same. Wykx (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the enlightened answer. Let's hope to remove at least one or two conflicts at the end of the year.GreyShark (dibra) 21:12, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Chiapas conflict[edit]

As it seems, the conflict is not ongoing. The last three incidents happened in 2014, 2011 and 2008. see Chiapas conflict. I"ve searched in the web to see if there is any source who say or implying this is ongoing but I couldn't find one. --Bolter21 07:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Considering there was one person killed in 2014, it is still eligible for the list, but next year hopefully, we should be able to remove it. Wykx (talk) 07:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
We shall remove it at the end of December in accordance with the policy of this list article.GreyShark (dibra) 11:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Iraq conflict casualties[edit]

@Nykterinos: I'm not sure about this 1,000,000 figure for the Iraq conflict - i think it is a rough estimate of casualties in some survey study, not really relying on actual fatality numbers.GreyShark (dibra) 19:54, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I cited the most updated study (March 2015) by the IPPNW, which takes into account all previous studies also detailed in the Casualties of the Iraq War article. 224,000 is the lowest figure by IBC including only documented direct deaths, whereas the higher figure (1,000,000) also includes excess deaths, which need to be assessed through mortality surveys. Nykterinos (talk) 20:00, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that those surveys are something we should use on this page. There is very little reliability in the "do you know someone who died?" quiz and the statistical error is huge. We should rely on expert estimates and Iraqi body count only.GreyShark (dibra) 16:36, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I understand your concern, but the IBC figure is certainly an underestimate since it doesn't include undocumented violent deaths and indirect deaths, and includes only reported violent deaths. Therefore, using only IBC without higher estimates would be misleading in my opinion. Estimates of total excess deaths based on summary estimates or mortality surveys are already used in the article in conformity with the guidelines ("excess deaths indirectly resulting from famine, disease and disruption of services are included along with violent deaths only in the cumulative fatalities count, when available"), for example for Afghanistan and the Kivu conflict, where direct deaths are much lower than the figures we report. The List of wars by death toll article reports the total deaths of the Iraq war (2003-2011) as "176,913–1,120,000". Nykterinos (talk) 20:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Conflicts map[edit]


There is a prototype of such map : Template:Syrian, Iraqi, and Lebanese insurgencies detailed map.GreyShark (dibra) 05:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Starting date of Israeli-Palestinian conflict[edit]

Moved to Talk:Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Starting_date_of_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

I don't think that is a good idea to move this discussion there - i'm concerned it would become rather political than technical. Furthermore, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict already states the conflict runs from 1948 to present with the main phase being the PLO insurgency from 1964 (established) to 1993 (Oslo peace accords). The main question is when and how to count casualties - the only good source we have is counting from 1965.GreyShark (dibra) 05:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I really don't understand this move, but i don't object it either.
Now, if you mean the article, then the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" DO NOT STATE the conflict runs from 1948, on the contrary, its rightfully vague and says but that it began in mid 20th century. As I already mentioned This is quite accurate, as there is no consensus when to point it's definite separation from the larger Arab conflict. I hope people actually read each others arguments here. Anyway I found some questions on that point but no objection. Furthermore there were no objections on 1964 being the most stable date, and also you yourself stated it was edited to 1948 without discussions. You actually positively agreed with me on 1964 being the best cutting point from the arab israeli conflict. That's why i now changed that date back to 1964, in hopes it would stay that way.Mateo (talk) 07:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
No, I certainly object the 1964 date but I'm open to more insights. I will not revert the date because there is no consensus so I would find it ridiculous to change again and again ;)
Also I find more appropriate to discuss the starting point of a conflict on its dedicated page when the discussion is too long. Or maybe should we put 'Mid 20th century' as in the conflict page? Mateo, what is the conflict from your point of view which happened from 1949 to 1964?
And I add that on the infobox of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict it is mentioned : Establishment and dissolution of Palestinian administration (1948–1959) in Gaza, Jordanian occupation of the West Bank (1948–1967), All-Palestine (1948–1959) and all these elements clearly include dates from 1948. Wykx 08:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I think your answer lies inside your question. There were attempts to establish a Palestinian administration that will represent local Arab population since the beginning of the British mandate. As you well know, it was the British who appointed the young Amin al-Husseini to the mufti of Jerusalem. The did it in 1922 although he was 25 years old and there were four more prominent Muslim figures a head of him for that role. But the locals have proven for the first time in many of these attempts that wont be fooled, and they eventually rejected the leadership appointed by foreign rule. As i mentioned before, during the 1948 war the mufti was on exile and had but a few thousands of soldiers supporting him. When the Arab countries took upon them to represent the Palestinian region (but actually pushed on their own Arabist or local agenda) many locals protested as well. This period lasted since 1939, Got to it's peak in 1945 with the establishment of the arab league, and started to diminish only with the establishment of the PLO and later with Fatah's taking over. Thus, in 1953, when a local Palestinian refugee is going for attack on Israel, he is doing it from Egypt, with support or without prevention of that country, while there is no Palestinian authority, when Arab countries still control the Palestinian fate, and this (among other things) eventully leads to clashes between two sovereign countries (Israel and Egypt/Israel and Syria/Israel and Jordan) - it is clearly part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Mateo (talk) 15:25, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Many conflicts are part of the Arab–Israeli conflict, so could you please give a reference to the specific conflict between 1949 and 1964? I don't see any other than the Israeli–Palestinian_conflict. If we were in 1953 or 1970 for example, how would label the conflict in the List of ongoing armed conflicts table without counting casualties twice? Wykx 17:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
There is no one specific conflict between 1949 till 1964, regarding the Israeli entity and the Palestinian people. In those dates Israel's War was with Sovereign Arab states while Palestinians either tried to settle or renounce Arab influence over their decision-making process, through many small factions such as communist parties, Arabist parties, Muslim brotherhood parties, Conservative parties, Municipal Parties and so on. So it's impossible and a blunt mistake to separate this phase from the Arab-Israeli conflict.Mateo (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Between 3000 and more than 7000 people have died during this period and there was no specific conflict? I don't understand. I agree that Israel considered Arab countries as responsible for infiltrations even if they were not directly conducted by them. Attacks were carried by Palestinians and relatation from Israel was against Palestinian fedayeens (even if far from not only them). We have many examples of other conflicts where rebel movements are used and supported by other states to achieve their goals. Moreover Palestinian fedayeen had the purpose to reclaim Palestine since the beginning of their actions. Wykx 19:33, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying there was no conflict at all. I'm not saying attacks were not carried by Palestinians against Israel. What I AM SAYING is that your opinion totally ignores the relation between Palestinians and the Arab nations. I agree with you we can to other conflicts for better understanding of this one: Armenian fedayi were part of the Sharzum; Algerian guerilla were part of the FLN that you can trace back to the ENA in the mid 20's; All attacks made by Irish rebels were under the responsibility of the IRA. I ask you who was responsible to the Palestinian fadayeen attacks? Israel can say it's the Arab states but this question is unclear to this day. So the argument they "had the purpose to reclaim Palestine since the beginning of their actions." is just an assumption, and it's even less clear weather they wished to reclaim it to make an autonomous Palestinian state, an Arab state as part of a coalition, A communist state with the support of the soviet union or maybe a Muslim state supported by the growing movement of the muslim brotherhood. The fact they were Palestinians with guns pointed to newly founded Israel does not let you assume you know everything about them. This is a mistake Israel had made, and Arab states have made as well. Moreover we do not know supported them with guns, information, access across borders or a sense of purpose. Do you know what organizations are mentioned in the article related to the fadayeen? al-Jabhah al-Sha`biyyah, Al-Jabha al-Dimuqratiya and of course the the PLO. All of these were founded after 1964, And this is basically what we are talking about.
I'm getting the feeling it's important we should arrange some facts: We both know there are two conflicts that all historians agree upon: Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian (you can reverse the order of the sides as you like). We both know that the Israeli side mentioned in both of the conflict regard to those Zionists who immigrated to the region since the late 19th century. This is why it's called an "Israeli" conflict rather than a "Zionist" one. On the Israeli side, the conflict deals with the wish to form an autonomous state in parts of the "land of Israel". It was those Zionists who implemented an action and formed organizations that got recognized by locals as a threat. That's why they are one side of both of these conflicts.
What about the other part of the equation? If in the term Palestinians we speak of those locals of the region (their time of immigration is a matter of dispute) that got into a conflict with those Israelis, we can begin the conflict in 1920, or just keep it as one Arab-Israeli conflict with phases, just like the Arab and Hebrew Wikipedia did. I believe it's a mistake to put a similar starting point because clearly today Palestinians are a specific people with clear demands and therefore their conflict with Israelis differ from the larger one. If we refer to the Palestinisns that rebelled against foreign rule, then why should we begin with the Fadayeen? Palestinisns wished to "reclaim Palestine" from the british too.
The question is when did we have two clear sides in this conflict? As you well know Arabs and Israelis had conflict long before the state of Israel was founded. You can put the starting date at 1881,1897,1919,1920,1929. Back then you had one side wishing the land would make a Jewish state and one that wished it would be an Arab state. You had well recognized groups that issued that claim towards the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate. You had well known figures operating for their side's purpose. One should ask when did the Palestinian form a clear wish for an independent state? Check your resources. There were many Palestinian claims in 1948. Some wished for an Arab confederation, supporting Nasser, some wished to join the communist struggle, some supported a Muslim alliance, and many just wished to protect their family. But the organization in charge of all these claims was the Arab league, which had Arab interests and represented the claim for an Arabic state. Therefore all the number of casualties you mentioned (which you should definitely check) are part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, at least until the PLO got disconnected from it. This process began in 1964.22:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)Mateo (talk)
O and BTW, even the current resource for the number of casualties in the conflicts puts it's starting date at 1965. This supports the fact that NO HISTORIAN will claim this conflict began in 1948, and i guess "" knows why. I hope all that information satisfy you, but if not we can continue conversing by all means.Mateo (talk) 22:30, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
When you doubt that reclaiming Palestine was a goal, do you know that Fatah (founded in 1959) means "Palestinian National Liberation Movement"? I agree that Palestinian wanted to reclaim Palestine from the British but the British were ruling before 1948 so the conflict couldn't be with Israel. If the Arab League was the entity defending Palestinians views before 1964, what does it change to the fact that a conflict was ongoing between Palestinians factions supported by other Arabs and Israel? So if I have well understood your view, the conflict that happened between 1949 and 1964 (and still ongoing) was the Arab-Israeli conflict and this conflict is impossible to sub-divise into smaller conflicts (Lebanon-Israel, Syria-Israel, Egypt-Israel, Palestinian-Israel, etc)? It seems very strange to me. Wykx 00:01, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
First, i don't doubt reclaiming Palestine was a goal. Im sure it was A goal. But i doubt if it was the goal in the sense it was ultimate or even a Primary goal. As i said, the Palestinians are a very diverse people, and each time some leader tried to put a mark on their wished, he was proven wrong. So even if conquering Israel was a goal, even if it was the goal, it is unclear what ultimate purpose would it serve. That's an historic fact, and it's important when we talk about aspirations of a nations, and a conflict between people.
Second, Fatah has no "national" in it's name. the meaning of "Harka Tahrir Falestin" (Fatah backwards) is basiclly "Movement of Freedom for Palestine". The lack of "national" is also important is vague on purpose.
Third I'll repeat just for you what i already wrote, that Fatah and it's control over the PLO (after the Arabic defeat in 1967 war or it's naksa) is exactly were we should start speaking about a specific conflict between Israelis (and thier state) and Pleastinians (and their aspirations).
Forth, and that's the conclusion, that the Israeli-Arabic conflict CAN be and in fact SHOULD be divisible, but not sooner than 1964, and probably not later than 1977. Im always in favor of setting starting points the earliest the scientific consensus let's you. So it should be 1964. 02:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mateo (talkcontribs)
So you don't deny some Palestinians factions had the goal to reclaim and have a free Palestine, among others, before 1964. But I don't see why these combatting factions can't be considered as one independent force fighting against Israel (other forces being mainly state armies during other sub-conflicts like the Suez Crisis) when we have belligerents (Palestinians factions and Israel) clearly identified.Wykx 01:54, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Let me say it clearly: I know what im saying regarding the relations between Jews and Arabs in this region. First rule about this conflict is that you have got to be very careful about the facts you wish choose to focus on. These are two extremely sensitive people that can take offense even by the very basic of facts. Either side is willing to bravely admit the truth of the matter, but some misconceptions became facts the some true facts are undeniable. For example, the Israeli narrative will not acknowledge that the idea of a national Palestinian state already existed in the hearts of Arabs during the first part of the 20th century. But in the same breath, the Palestinian narrative wont ever admit that their national aspiration for Independence, the one which is the base for their right for self-determination, matured and became the their ultimate goal long after that, deep in the second part of that century.
I hope this answer the question on unity in the Palestinian struggle during the 1950's. There was no unity whatsoever. And clearly there was no independence as well. That's why it's factually wrong to consider "these combatting factions" as you say, "as one independent force fighting against Israel". Perhaps you specifically wanted to consider it, but hopfully know you understand it's more complicated. By the way, i didn't mention any independent Palestinian "faction" that supported an independent Palestinian state until 1964. What "factions" do refer to?01:11, 11 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mateo (talkcontribs)
(I don't get why im signing the edit page with four ~ and my name wont appear)Mateo (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Let me be very clear : no matter why they were fighting, the Palestinians factions were in conflict with Israelis.
And to answer your questions, Palestinian fedayeen and later on Fatah were nationalists looking at 'liberation' for Palestinians even if I recognize it wasn't clear what form of recognition they were looking for.
But again that is not the central question to recognize a conflict was ongoing since a conflict was indeed ongoing between Palestinian factions and Israelis. Wykx 05:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Maybe for you it does not matter why they are fighting in the middle east, but to them that's the most important thing! I really can't see why we are having this discussion if it does not matter to you from the first place. Ill say it for the last time. There are two conflicts in the region, and it's important to understand when to separate the wider Arab conflict from the specific Palestinian one. The casualty resource is doing just that in 1965, and as someone pointed out earlier this was the original date for it until somebody changed it without a notice. Now I did put up a notice and after a few days of conversation corrected it to 1964. In that conversation you said you would not change it again but i just saw you did. Without any notification. That's not a way to behave! Now i have been very patient in this conversation, answered all your questions, and got no factual disagreement by you. Yet it seems you haven't read anything written in this conversation. Even basic things, like the fadayeen being a "faction". They actually can't be a faction. Just look at the term in any dictionary. I also commented quite extensively on Fatah as well. Now if you wish to continue our discussion i suggest you read it through, otherwise it's just a waste of time. If you wish to continue changing back the date, perhaps the best way to move forward is to call a moderator.Mateo (talk) 06:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Exactly I'm not looking at why they are fighting! By the way even today I doubt all Palestinians groups and all Israelis groups have common ideas! And that's the same thing in many conflicts. It is your opinion that why they are fighting matters for the starting date and then you wish to include all casualties in a wider conflict which is very generic and with dozens of belligerents and sub-conflicts, still ongoing and overlapping the one we are talking about. As you wrote primarily the consensus for starting date is 'mid 20th century' and mentions elements from 1948 in the infobox. And yes I agree the term 'factions' is not the best one: 'groups' would surely best fit and be more generic. And yes I already replied to you on my page I should have waited longer for your answer before changing date. Wykx 12:10, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Groups? Name me one group of fadayeen that had even partial independence from it's hosting country and had a clear demand to establish a national home for Palestinians. Please see that when addressing a this issue, unlike other conflicts, the ISR-PLS should be separated from the ISR-ARB one. This is something we actually agree upon. Or do you claim there is only one conflict? Thats legitimate, but i think there is a wide one and a spesific one. That's why unlike other conflicts, it's very important to understand what is the reason for fighting. Do you understand that now? So you shouldn't wait "longer" and then do whatever you feel like. This discussion should include all facts related to this issue and we should set the date according to facts, and not your set of mind.

As for now, the resource in the article dates the starting point to 1965 and i know no historian that would say the conflict started with the foundation of Israel. 1949 is also false, as it has no importance to Palestinians. In 1949 Palestinian were already got scattered in the region and had no representation in the truce agreements. So why 1949? You do understnad that the starting date should be set upon an action that occurred, and that relates to both sides, right? Please understand you can't set the date according to your feelings.

As for concensus, it's known THERE IS NO CONCEUNSUS when did the conflict start, but THERE IS ONE regrading when it did not start. Many historians say it should be in the first part of the century (1917, 1920, 1922, 1936) and many say it should be in the second part (1964,1967,1977,1982,1987,1993). Your view still completely ignores the relations between Palestinians and Arab countries. So before you consider placing a wrong date as a starting point you should A. Give good reasons for 1949 as the best place to differ the Palestinian conflict from the Arab conflict. B. Find at least one source that supports this claim. C. Change the current source of casualties that is here for years an currently supports the more reasonable claim, that the specific conflict can only start when you have two clear sides, with clear demands.Mateo (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I think we won't agree. Indeed Arab-Israeli conflict is too large for me even before 1964 as I already wrote and it includes several sub-conflicts including the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Since you don't recognize that, I almost don't see any more room for discussion between us. Maybe we can talk again when other contributors bring their views on it. I just can try (probably in two weeks) to post a graphical timeline of conflicts inside Arab-Israeli conflict so that you understand better my perspective.Wykx 04:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Ill tell you the truth, i have no idea how come we don't agree. I assumed my position on the table, and i don't think you did the same. While i answered all of you questions, and i can back anything up with resources (Palestinian and Israeli), you didn't even bothered with my first question. I actually don't understand your standing point. First you said "factions" then you said "groups" and now it's unclear. Let me also remind you that you entered this discussion midway as we already had other users in it, before it moved to another article. So for now the truth is not that we don't agree, but that i explained the importance of having a clear date that is coherent with the resource in the article, the rest of wikipedia and history, and you disagree without explaining why. Indeed in this atmosphere we better stop now. 18:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mateo (talkcontribs)
I had now enough time to provide a timeline as I see it, and in coherence with all the current Wikipedia pages I have checked: Israeli conflicts timeline.png
You can see that many conflicts are part of the Arab-Israeli conflict including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
What I have understood of where we disagree: you see Arab-Israeli conflict happening at least from 1948 to 1964 (and until when?) with an Israeli-Palestinian conflict starting in 1964 and which doesn't seem to be part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. -Wykx 22:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
No, this is not what im saying. Israeli-Arab conflict probably started with the first Zionist immigration to the middle east. With all the words i wrote in this conversation I could write a whole essay on the subject by now, but it almost seems like you have not read a single word. Now the first thing i said is that ITS NOT A SIMPLE MATTER to just put a date on a conflict, especially on a sub-conflict, since the a country had been officially formed. This is a patronizing approach that says to both people "line starts here" without any explanation or source. But from 1948 (and long before that, if you have not noticed) and at least until 1964, Palestinians were in deep difference of opinions with the Arab states, trying to get their independent voice to be heard by their leaders and afterwords in the Arab league. You are still totally ignoring this delicate relationship between the Palestinians and the Arab countries, and see it as simple as "When Israel was formed the Palestinian conflict differed from the Arab one" and that completely opposite to reality. You still have not answered even the most basic question. Why 1949? Why March 1949? Israel was already a state but without defined borders and Palestinians where scattered and without leadership. As i said, this is a patronizing approach saying to both people "line starts here", without addressing the most important question in determine this issue: When does a conflict begins.Mateo (talk) 05:39, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Israeli-Arab conflict has one of its roots in the first Zionist immigration to the middle east but could not start as such before Independance of Israel. The Intercommunal conflict in Mandatory Palestine covers period before May 1948 anyway. One consequence of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War is that at least 600.000 Palestinian Arabs fled. Also end of 1948 at the Jericho Conference it was stated that Palestine Arabs express gratitude to Arab states for their efforts in behalf of liberation of Palestine. Those elements can be considered as a starting point. I admit I don't know to which extent Arabs supported Palestinians because the Arab League condemned the Jericho Conference. But until March 1949 a war between Arabs and Israel was ongoing and Palestinians were part of it (at least as casualties) so there was already one conflict. After March 1949, I have never denied that some Arab countries were supporting Palestinians and using them as a cover. Thus Palestinians were in first line with Israel from 1949 as fighters and casualties, on a slow pace until 1964 when PLO was founded. Wykx 19:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The Arab-Israeli conflict has roots in Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism in the Middle East. The gradual growth of the Old Yishuv in 15-19th centuries and essentially the rise of the new Yishuv in early 20th century took place in parallel with the rise of Arab nationalism, but it was not the cause for it or its effect. The first violent incidents between Jews and Arabs on purely nationalist grounds took place as a spillover of the Franco-Syrian War in March 1920 and only in 1921 there were first ever strictly local motivated sectarian riots in Jaffa. Stating that "first Zionist immigration to the Middle East" in 1882 caused some kind of conflict is a pure anachronism, which is a useful political propaganda of Palestinian Arab nationalists and Ba'athists but should be titled as such.GreyShark (dibra) 21:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

November 2015[edit]

Turkey-PKK conflict[edit]

Shouldn't it be red on the map since the death toll is now 1,000+? (talk) 06:45, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

The conflict happens in Iraq (currently in brown on the map) and Turkey (currently orange). We don't know precisely the breakdown between both countries but to my knowledge we don't have sources claiming more than 1000 casualties in Turkey alone. Wykx 12:50, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


I'm dubious about adding an ongoing "armed conflict" in France between the French government and jihadist groups. No actual fighting is taking place in France, but only a series of terrorist attacks. The French government is indeed fighting jihadist groups, like al-Qaeda and ISIS, but outside its territory, in conflicts already listed in this article (Iraqi and Syrian civil wars, Northern Mali conflict). Besides, it remains to be seen if the latest attacks in France were really directed by ISIS or committed by unaffiliated individuals. The Islamic terrorism crisis in France article considers "isolated individuals who sympathise with the jihadist movement" parties to the alleged conflict, but, according to our guidelines, only organized armed groups can be considered parties to an armed conflict. Fighting individual criminals is normally called law enforcement, not an "armed conflict". I think we need reliable secondary sources calling this an armed conflict before adding it to the list. Nykterinos (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I do agree on your point of view. Wykx 01:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
France should not be included. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
France should be included.GreyShark (dibra) 05:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
If you think you can find resource for a direct link between the Charlie Hebdo shooting, the Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War and the recent attacks, its obvious that France is in an ongoing armed conflict. The difficulty is to nail with whom. If I remember correctly, ISIS didn't take responsibility for Charlie Hebdo, just praised it. So I think it's better to work on this crisis in a sandbox and wait until things will get clearer. If god forbid and another terror attack will hit France or if the country will get more involved in the Syrian war, it should definitely be included.Mateo (talk) 10:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I might reconsider my position because president Hollande and Prime Minister Valls spoke both about War. Military troops are now deployed in Paris. Wykx 09:08, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I think the question is continuity of those events. Indeed we do not know for sure whether Charlie is linked or not with current terror events. Sadly, i guess once we have another ISIL-incident in France (hope not) - it would automatically make it a prolonged conflict rather than an isolated incident (as you have mentioned "war" concept is already widely utilized).GreyShark (dibra) 12:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
This could be seen as a part of war against ISIS. The whole Middle Eastern situation is so complex that I think the present presentation of the current situation is not showing the whole picture. I don't know on what grounds the wars are listed, but I'd suggest that we lump the whole "Middle Eastern war" under a same umbrella and divade it where appropriate. ISIS has operations in Middle East, Afrika, North Caucasus and Southeast Asia and this could be seen as a continuation of that, an operation in Europe. Tuiverrus (talk) 14:16, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
This appears to be a one off attack, and not a sustained insurgency within France as such its not an ongoing armed conflict in France. Also note that the Charlie Habdo attack was perpetrated by AQAP, not the Islamic State as this one was.XavierGreen (talk) 04:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
France-ISIS war is ongoing. Similar way there is no day-to-day ongoing conflict in china, russia or india, but still they are coloured as orrange. In fact if usa gun violence claims more than 100 people then it can be included as a civil war inside usa. Trotting cove (talk) 04:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
For China, Russia and India, we have secondary sources saying that an armed conflict is ongoing (more than one conflict in India): see UCDP, CSP, Project Ploughshares (only the case of China is dubious: UCDP says that the identity of ETIM is unclear). Not all armed violence constitutes an armed conflict, which requires two or more organized armed groups (governmental or non-governmental) fighting each other: this is not a List of countries by intentional homicide rate or a List of terrorist attacks, and conflict-related deaths are only a part of violent deaths (see Global burden of armed violence). Therefore, gun violence in the USA or any other country doesn't qualify for inclusion. Nykterinos (talk) 15:04, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - another shootout in Paris - three killed in a police raid on a suspect Jihadi cell [6].GreyShark (dibra) 06:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Khuzestan conflict[edit]

With 2 more casualties in the third incident [7] since the beginning of 2015, i think this is sufficient to readd the Arab separatism in Khuzestan conflict to the list.GreyShark (dibra) 09:24, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


The post-coup unrest article refers mainly to the violent street clashes that followed the coup and gradually diminished upon the November 2013 signing of the Egyptian protest law till Sisi's election in 2014. And while the ongoing insurgency began simultaneously with the unrest, it remains a separate subject that probably deserves an article of its own (Insurgency in Egypt (2013–present) maybe?), though we already have Terrorism in Egypt for that purpose. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

The impact of unrest in term of casualties is certainly diminishing from around 2100 casualties in 2013 to 434 in 2014 and 272 in 2015 until now. There are less street protests, but with 272 casualties [8] this year it is certainly not over. To my understanding the street protesters of 2013 and 2015 were mainly supporters of Muslim Brotherhood. Wykx 20:42, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
And why exactly are those "street protests" considered an armed conflict? Again, the unrest and the insurgency are two different subjects, and Islamist opposition groups like the Muslim Brotherhood insist that they are not carrying out militant attacks on government targets. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
That has been discussed here: Talk:List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts/Archive_7#Deaths_by_country:_Egypt Wykx 16:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
So? It was also discussed here. Because we don't have an article about the ongoing insurgency doesn't mean we get to make erroneous decisions, like picking the next article on sight. Also, the three (possibly cherrypicked) sources used by Nykterinos in the discussion you referred to are of questionable reliability. Project Ploughshares makes it sound as if the conflict was of a military nature ("combat deaths", "combatants", etc) while their description of it shows the exact opposite: that it's in fact a mere episode of political conflict that involved street clashes, riots, etc (something that would've been more suitable in List of ongoing protests) and a government crackdown on dissent (mass arrests and death sentences do not constitute an armed conflict either). CSP speaks of a "rebellion" in the south, which is complete bullshit since there never was anything of the sort. The UCDP source is actually about Sinai (plus al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya's campaign in the 1990s) and makes no mention of the "conflict" in mainland Egypt. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
For example, how do you consider those attacks from 2015? On 6 March, three policemen were killed in Mahalla. On 15 April, three military cadets were killed in a bomb attack. On 9 May, four dead in an exchange of fire between police and members of Muslim brotherhood. On 29 June, a top prosecutor was killed by explosives in his car. On 1 July, 9 militants were killed by police in Giza. On 17 July, 6 persons were killed during clashes in Cairo. On 6 August, 5 Muslim brotherhood members were shot dead in Fayoum province. On 24 August, a bus bombing kills 3 policemen and wounds 33 others. On 21 September, police kills 10 militants in Bahariya Oasis and following a mistake attack of 12 people including Mexican tourists. On 25 September, 9 militants were killed following the bombing of the Italian consulate in Cairo. We have a continuity. As street clashes of 2013/2015 were linked with islamists I see strong correlation with the ongoing incidents. It was certainly armed with more than 500 deaths on each side! Wykx 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Those incidents are better fit in Terrorism in Egypt or in a new article, not the post-coup unrest article. There was indeed a short-lived "rebellion" which came as a direct response to the Rabaa massacre, and it mainly ended a month later in September 2013 following the government's liberation of Kerdasa from Islamist militants, but this is as far as it gets. 1) Anti-coup street demonstrations continued, but they were considerably contained following the signing of the protest law two months later. 2) Although deadly clashes did take place afterwards on January 25, 2014/2015 (anniversary of the Egyptian Revolution of 2011), they are expected to recur annually and shouldn't be regarded as part of a "continuing" protest movement. 3) Apart from January 25th, weekly protests do take place sometimes, but they're hardly as deadly, as notable or as "armed" as the ones that shortly followed the coup and Rabaa (2 deaths maximum are usually documented these days). But yet again, all those three subjects combined belong to the list of ongoing protests, not here (yes, protests can be violent sometimes). Most of the incidents you mentioned aren't linked to events like Rabaa, unless you can prove otherwise, and groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and the Anti-Coup Alliance insist that they are non-violent, despite government accusations. A solution I propose is to create "Terrorism in Egypt (2013–present)" or "Insurgency in Egypt (2013–present)", and to broaden the scope of the post-coup unrest article by renaming it to its original title "Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état" so that it serves as an umbrella article that covers all the subjects that were mentioned here: the ongoing insurgency, the largely quelled protest movement and the ongoing government crackdown. The only subject we should be discussing here is the insurgency, both in Sinai and the smaller one in mainland Egypt. All you need to do is to not include protest casualties in this list. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 04:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually on one side I'm not opposed to a new article Insurgency in Egypt (2013–present). It is true that the form of the conflict is quite different from the street clashes. Then the page would have to be created. On another side we have also to keep in mind we could have new street clashes in January 2016 as in 2015 and 2014. Those street clashes are the 'civilian' part of the conflict with islamist groups. Wykx 06:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Those street clashes are the 'civilian' part of the conflict with islamist groups is original research unless you provide reliable sources backing that statement. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Are you kidding? 5/8/27 July 2013 protests were called by Muslim Brotherhood, while fires/bombs/assassinations were used on the following days/months against policemen and Christians, with people armed in streets from August 2013. Wykx 19:53, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I'll repeat my arguments one last time. Please make sure to read the points I made above carefully, because you probably didn't and I do not wish to go on about this forever:
5/8/27 July 2013 protests were called by Muslim Brotherhood - Exactly, and (again) protest casualties don't belong here in the list of ongoing armed conflicts.
fires/bombs/assassinations were used on the following days/months against policemen and Christians - I know, but like I said, those belong in a new article about the current insurgency or in Terrorism in Egypt, not in the post-coup unrest article which is about the political conflict and unrest involving the government and Muslim Brotherhood supporters. There was, however, a solution that I proposed above to partially solve this issue. Have you considered it?
with people armed in streets from August 2013 - ...until both the signing of the protest law in November 2013 and Sisi's election in June 2014, two watershed events in the Egyptian Crisis (2011–14) that effectively put a symbolic end to the period of political violence covered in the post-coup unrest article. Some analysts refer to the coup and Sisi's consolidation of power as a "counter-revolution" or by other similar terms. Whatever it's called, it appears to be successful so far. But it's also a badly organized topic on Wikipedia. Minor protests or street clashes that followed don't appear to be notable enough for an article of their own; inclusion in an "aftermath" section sounds like a more suitable option. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
There was, however, a solution that I proposed above to partially solve this issue. Have you considered it? I think so because I wrote I'm not opposed to a new article Insurgency in Egypt (2013–present). It is true that the form of the conflict is quite different from the street clashes. Then the page would have to be created. But please don't delete the current information until such a page is created. Wykx 19:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I was actually referring to the "Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état" part. While I prefer having Terrorism in Egypt as the "Egypt article" of choice on this list, I'm not opposed to the idea of creating a new article (at least we agree on that). However, until such a page is created is not a good enough reason to keep crap on Wikipedia, and "no consensus" is not a good enough reason to revert someone's edits. Again, this article that you keep re-adding here is irrelevant and should be removed at once. Street unrest doesn't belong here. Protest casualties do not belong here. Conflicts that are not ongoing do not belong here. Period. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so. I have already explained that 1/ there is an ongoing armed conflict with some casualties every single month since 2013 (which is not the case of many conflicts listed here by the way!), 2/ street unrests were part of this conflict but not only and that's why it qualifies to armed conflict 3/ protests casualties can be consequences of a conflict because citizens support one belligerent as it is the case here. Wykx 21:02, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
This is starting to get on my nerves. For the last time, the article you keep re-adding is irrelevant and is not about the ongoing conflict. Another reason why the post-coup unrest article doesn't belong here is that it's not ongoing anymore (ended in June 2014 till you moved the title without consensus about two months ago). Your second point is incomprehensible and needs further elaboration. I don't care if you reached a similar agreement concerning Burundi, but (again) street unrest does not amount to armed conflict, in case that's what you meant to say. Your third point is factually incorrect because the protests supported the Muslim Brotherhood, which is hardly considered a "belligerent" to the insurgency till enough reliable sources prove otherwise. The only belligerents we have are Wilayat Sinai and, to a lesser extent, groups like Ajnad Misr and the Popular Resistance Movement (which doesn't appear to be as active as it was last year) among others. I've never seen protesters rallying for those groups, so you are making things up. And for the last fucking time protest casualties do not belong here, capiche? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 03:06, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I would like to remind rules WP:CIV.
Soldiers of Egypt are active since end 2013 against Egyptian security forces. They are representing a small but violent part of the after-coup unrest. Unrest in Egypt is not limited to Muslim brotherhood actions and protests. Many conflicts in the world today are involving salafi jihadists. There were two phases in the post-coup unrest: one with mainly street protests and a second one mainly driven by terrorist actions and conflict with salafists. This second phase could have its own article and be separated from the street protests. Until post-coup unrest article is not divided into two articles: one for the street protests and one for the terror/anti-terror phase, it contains - as today - both phases and is still ongoing and valid. Wykx 18:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'm being too patient here. Currently, the post-coup unrest article is limited to the protests and street clashes (not the insurgency). I've, however, made a proposal above to rename its title to "Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état" to broaden its scope (read this part again and tell me what you think). There were two phases... is both original research and factually incorrect. Both the street protests and the insurgency began almost at the same time (e.g. [9]). Two aspects* instead of two phases (of the overall post-coup violence) is a better interpretation: one aspect (protests) gradually ended between the protest law and Sisi's ascent to power, while the other (insurgency) intensified and persists to this day. So this "until there is article X, article Y will remain here" logic is a rather silly one. Until there is an article about the insurgency (feel free to create one), protest casualties will be kept out of this article and moved to List of ongoing protests, though I don't find it necessary (protest deaths were very minimal this year). You need to provide sources saying that the unrest and insurgency are part of the same conflict. But what you did here is that you included in the table a non-ongoing article about the protests with casualties of a different conflict. Got it? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment - it seems that the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood continues sporadic protests and insurgency, thus qualifying to be included here. Note, that there is a separate conflict of Egyptian government with the Islamic State in Sinai, which has lately spread into mainland Egypt - this may merge into a tripartite conflict, since ISIL is acting both against Sisi's government and the Muslim Brotherhood, whom they consider apostates.GreyShark (dibra) 12:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • While I do believe the Muslim Brotherhood is itself involved in violence or orchestrating it, I don't see reliable sources (yet) claiming so, unless you've found otherwise. Following certain bombings, Wilayat Sinai (then Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis) declared in some of their post-attack statements that they carried out those bombings in retaliation to the Rabaa massacre, whose main target was the Muslim Brotherhood. But that's not enough "evidence". Groups like Ajnad Misr and the Popular Resistance Movement have carried out some attacks in mainland Egypt, but there is no article yet on their terror campaign. ISIL is acting both against Sisi's government and the Muslim Brotherhood - Wilayat Sinai never attacked the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They may have fought in Libya or Gaza, but never in Egypt. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Jihadism in Nigeria[edit]

See discussion about the proper naming for Islamist insurgency in Nigeria (previously also named Nigerian Sharia conflict and Boko Haram insurgency).GreyShark (dibra) 05:19, 27 November 2015 (UTC)