Talk:List of places of worship in Berlin

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Good start[edit]

This is a good start, but I have some suggestions to make the article easier to navigate and understand.

  1. The table is huge. It should be broken up into several smaller tables, for example by borough or by denomination/religion. (I'd recommend the latter.) For example, there could be separate tables for EKBO churches, RC churches, other Christian churches, Muslim places of worship, Jewish places of worship, and Buddhist places of worship.
  2. Since Wikipedia isn't paper, abbreviations should never be necessary; we don't need to save space. Then we could remove the tables of abbreviations at the bottom.
  3. It needs to be made clearer which buildings still function as places of worship and which don't. For example, the New Synagogue is not a functioning synagogue, it's a museum.
  4. It needs to be made clear which church buildings belong to which denomination, and when a church is merely used by a denomination. For example, the Schöneberger Dorfkirche is not an Old Catholic church, but the Old Catholics hold services there sometimes. Likewise, the Anglicans hold services at the Marienkirche, but the Marienkirche is still an EKBO church.
  5. EKBO isn't (just) Lutheran, it's a United church (Lutheran + Reformed).
  6. I'd move the photos out of the table and instead have a selection of photos of buildings (photos of plaques etc. aren't really very interesting) along the right edge.
  7. I'm not sure listing the namesake of the churches is so important. Many places of worship (especially non-Christian ones) don't have namesakes, and even among the ones that do it isn't always clear who the namesake is. (For example, Saint William is a disambiguation page, so we still don't know who the Sankt-Wilhelm-Kirche is named for.) By removing this column, we could merge the street names with the borough/locality names, keeping address information together.

What do others think? Angr (talk) 08:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Angr[edit]

As to good start:
Thanks for the compliment, indeed I thought a long time about how to structure the table and worked long on preliminary versions using the wiki preview function. I did a long research in the commons for images, because many images of objects were not in categories referring to places of worship, which I then added.

  1. As to the table's size and suggestions to separate it into sublists following religious/denominational, church body or borough delineations:
    All these subcategorisations are shown in the different columns, and by using the sortable table functions (click botton) one can easily get the table sorted along these categories. While breaking up the list into separate lists would force people, knowing a particular object only by sight, name or else what (but not by denomination, church body, borough or religion/denomination), to search for objects in different lists. The advantage of wiki sortable table is that one can determine the preferred categorisation on one's own.
  2. As to «abbreviations should never be necessary».
    The abbreviations were used for the table in order to bring the information into narrow columns, considering the fact that not every user views the table on a huge screen. Most abbreviations are linked, so that one can easily find out for what they stand. The abbreviation lists below the table of places of worship are therefore hardly to be used. However, for the sake of completeness all abbreviations are explained in the abbreviation lists below the table, since some abbreviations need explanation or form red links, at least for the time being.
  3. As to the «New Synagogue»:
    The space in the remaining part of the New Synagogue is now mostly used by a museum and also for administrative purposes of the Jewish congregation of Berlin (e.g. the hall of the assembly of represenatitives [Repräsentantenversammlung] of the congregation), but the former women's wardrobe on the first floor is indeed used and furnished as a synagogue, seating about 100 people, I myself have attended ceremonies there, regularly held. In the column referring to the denomination/religion of a place of worship it is clearly indicated whether an object is still functioning as place of worship, it is indicated whether it is profaned, or even destroyed or else demolished. For faster recognition of the present function status the respective colum should maybe be moved more to the left.
  4. As to distinguishing denominations owning (and using) and others only guestwise using an object:
    Here clarification is helpful, I will think about how to do it. I will clearly indicate the actual denomination of the owning congregation(s) and that of eventual guest congregations.
  5. As to «EKBO isn't (just) Lutheran»:
    Indeed, EKBO is a church united in administration, but not in confession (Unlike the Anhalt, Baden or Hesse-Nassau Protestant church bodies, which are united in confession!). The list of places of worship does not insinuate EKBO were a Lutheran church. It clearly shows that churches within EKBO can be Lutheran (mostly), and that some are of Calvinist (Reformed) and some of Prussian Union Protestant united confession. As it were, before the «Prussian Union of churches» of 1817 the bulk of the Portestants in then Prussia were Lutherans, thus the bulk of congregations and their churches were Lutheran too.
    The Prussian Union was indeed royally intended to prompt a Union of Confession of all Lutheran and Reformed congregations, but never materialised as such (see Prussian Union of churches). The bulk of the congregations and churches, being Lutheran before just remained Lutheran by confession, but accepted joining the Union of administration in one umbrella, while some Lutheran congregations seceded forming today's Independent Evangelical Lutheran Church (Thus there are intra-administrative Union umbrella Lutherans and seceded Lutherans [so-called Old Lutherans]).
    Some congregations adopted the Union confession (of which some later were given up due to the commercialisation-induced depopulation of Berlin's inner city or due to war destruction), most Reformed congregations - also in denominationally mixed cities - retained their confession often because of strong Huguenot traditions, though becoming members of the administrative Union umbrella. Congregations of united confession almost only emerged from mergers of previously existing Reformed and Lutheran congregations previously using together one church as a simultaneum (cf. Jerusalem's Church, Holy Trinity Church (Berlin), Friedrichswerder Church and Neue Kirche, Berlin, all the four now not used as churches anymore), or in Lindow (Mark).
    Reformed Protestants always formed a minority in the area today covered by EKBO, with few exceptional villages e.g. in the Uckermark, which were newly settled with Calvinist immigrants after the depopulation by the 30-years' War. However, in homogeneously Reformed villages the Reformed congregations had no Lutheran congregations to merge with and thus saw no reason to alienate parishioners by adopting a new united confession. Whereas the bulk of the Protestant congregations and their churches and parishioners were Lutheran as well not seeing any reason to alienate parishioners by adopting an alien new united confession, especially highly disputed among Lutheran traditionalists. This Lutheran bulk of the Protestants in the territory covered by today's EKBO lived in homogenously Lutheran areas, where the Lutheran congregations had not even a local Reformed congregation to merge with, though accepting - under then royal Prussian influence - being in an administrative Union umbrella with congregations of other Protestant confessions.
    This historical situation, as it is, resulted from a compromise, turning the intended, but factually unenforceable project to form Union confession congregations as members of a new Protestant Union confession church body into today's administrative Union umbrella of congregations of different Protestant confessions. This is difficult to grasp by people not familiar with it (like me, when I started to develop the Prussian Union chuches article, so I often erred and had to correct my entries as to the actual denomination of EKBO churches after better research), and even alien to Protestants in areas where Lutheran and Reformed denominations are organised in separate church bodies. Protestant congregations and their churches within the umbrella founded after 1817 derive their confession from that of the respective mother parishes from which they have been partitioned. So a new congregation partitioned from a Lutheran older parish did retain the confession of the mother congregation. New Reformed congregations have - at least to my knowledge - never been formed in EKBO's area.
  6. As to photos of the listed objects:
    I find it attractive to see the images more on the left side of the table, since many people are not aware of the names of the places of worship, however, know the objects as sights, so images rather positioned left help to recognise objects faster. Plaques referring to objects are mostly used here as wildcards for objects of which no images are to be found in the commons (yet). Whenever I found newly uploaded images I replaced eventual plaques. As long as there are no other images uploaded than plaques, they are still something that some people notice in the streets and may therefore find helpful or interesting.
  7. As to namesakes:
    Namesakes are given here for reasons of explanation and distinction. Some places have names referring to namesakes which at first sight people would not associate. Sophia Church (Sophienkirche) or Christian's Church (Christianskirken) are not named after eventual saints Sophia or Christian, as might be suggested. Namesakes of mosques appear often in the object's names in the native language dominating among their (original) congregants, while other names are used in the English wikipedia, an argument which is also true for many Christian namesakes in German or other languages. I do not understand the argument of skipping namesakes arguing that most non-church objects lack namesakes, because the bulk of the objects are indeed churches with namesakes and also some of the other objects have namesakes, deserving explanation. The names of objects often do not give exact hints to the actual namesake, since sometimes there are several persons or events of similar or even equal name. In religious, historical, or political respect the namesakes tell something about intentions, thus it is of interest which namesakes are used for objects.


Best wishes
Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 10:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC) Improved style: Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 10:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)Ulf Heinsohn (talk) 10:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Names?[edit]

I add St. Marien am Behnitz. This is the name on the German Wikipedia, no "Sankt", no "-kirche", which is no surprise because it is a former church, now privately owned. I question the conform "Sankt" of this list. Protestant churches typically don't have it at all, rather "Marienkirche", and even Catholic ones often abbreviate to "St." - How about respect for the actual (common) names, instead of conformity? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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