Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience

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Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience

The Arbitration Committee has issued several principles which may be helpful to editors of this and other articles when dealing with subjects and categories related to "pseudoscience".

Principles
Four groups
Frequently asked questions (FAQ)

References revisited[edit]

This discussion followed by these edits points to consensus being reached via WP:SILENT. An argument can be made re: WP:LISTVERIFY "obviously appropriate material" for having no references.... and that, or some other rational, seems to have been accepted. So reverting this edit per WP:CCC so we start discussion here. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:53, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

A local consensus cannot determine that WP:V should be ignored. What would be recommended if someone adds Evolution to this list and says that no reference is needed? Johnuniq (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
WP:V would not be ignored here since references do exist---> at the parent article. The entry here would not (can not) differ from the parent article. I don't think this list is ideal and I agree with views from the previous consensus discussion that descriptions on this list should be one sentence instead of mini-articles. FORKing full blown name-calling to this article, in detail and language that does not appear in the parent article, gives us a need for references. Shot summaries of other article sections do not need those references. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:52, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The entries should be in WP:SYNC, but references are required per WP:V/WP:LISTVERIFY. Core policy cannot be overturned by a WP:LOCALCON. Alexbrn (talk) 04:34, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
A local consensus cannot determine... and I don't actually see a consensus for this -- only a couple claims that there was (or that people didn't speak up quickly enough, which is not such a compelling argument when concrete policy objections are raised and the number of participants in the discussion multiplies). Absolutely everything given the label "pseudoscience" falls under "likely to be challenged" for WP:V purposes and cannot be considered "obviously appropriate". Also, from WP:SAL: "Stand-alone lists are subject to Wikipedia's content policies and guidelines for articles, including verifiability and citing sources. This means statements should be sourced where they appear, and they must provide inline citations if they contain any of the four kinds of material absolutely required to have citations." At least two and maybe three of those four certainly apply here: challenged statements (see talk page archive, for example) and likely to be challenged statements. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Our articles are not reliable sources, and one reason for that is that they get changed frequently. What is referenced today may not be referenced tomorrow. @Fountains of Bryn Mawr:, you say that short summaries don't require references, but WP:SUMMARY clearly states that "every article must follow the verifiability policy, which requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation. This applies whether in a parent article or in a summary-style subarticle." I think that should settle the issue. Doug Weller talk 09:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I think, "any material challenged or likely to be challenged " is the key here. A list of cheeses might not require per item sources to show that each is a cheese, but in an article on this topic, any of these items is very likely to be challenged. Thus the references are useful. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. Anything claiming something is pseudoscience is likely to be challenged by its adherents, so yes, it's certainly a key if not the only one. Doug Weller talk 14:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Re: "Our articles are not reliable sources" and "any of these items is very likely to be challenged" misses the point of a list. Lists specifically relate to the content of the article they list, i.e. the article is the source in the case of a list (a type of alternative navigation to a Category). "List of topics characterized as pseudoscience" is a list of like items, not a list of claims. It simply reports that (somewhere in the linked article) the topic has been labeled a pseudoscience. Its the same as reporting that "all articles included in this list contain a picture of a red car". Its a verifiable list of like items that is "obviously appropriate", you do not need a reference for that. If editors at (a specific) article reach a consensus to delete the picture of the red car there then they follow up and delete the entry from the list article. Lengthy descriptions, references, and battles about whether the picture of the red car should have even been in a given article belong at that parent article, not at the list.

Not using sources does get iffy where topics are not clearly labeled a "pseudoscience". That, again, is an argument for that article's talk page, not here re: WP:CFORK. Its a different argument: to cut back items in this list or delete the entire list. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

The general result of the previous discussion was that because this was a LIST of wiki pages where the discussion of if these were pseudoscience is already discussed, therefore there is no need for that same discussion to be repeated over again on the list page. It's a waste of space and effort. All you need to do is go to the home page. After the end of the previous discussion, I proceeded to systematically remove the sources from the list. I did this off and on for over a year. No one made any move to stop the progress until this bully came along and decided he knew better than everybody else. I'm not the one who started this unprovoked edit war.

none of these items in the list need any sources. --OtisDixon (talk) 19:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

In the previous discussion I see OtisDixon and Fountains of Bryn Mawr supporting to the idea of removal (and reverting those who disagree, citing things like BRD). And I see Binksternet, Sbmeirow, Ronz, Doug Weller, and Dougmcdonell disagreeing (the latter for somewhat different reasons). Here again I see the same two users saying that there was consensus for removal in the previous discussion (????). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Just to add another voice to this, I too can see no consensus in the Archive #18 (and I know of no other places to look) for references not being required in this article, or that references (needed or not) should this be removed en masse. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:02, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
If there's consensus on anything, it's to follow V and FRINGE. I suggest that editors who think differently review WP:ARB/PS carefully, and make sure their suggestions do not contradict the multiple principles regarding sourcing. --Ronz (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Like I said, that followed by that and continuing for 4 months implied WP:SILENT. I simply followed the next step at WP:CCC: starting discussion is preferred over reverting. Its here in talk now... if editors did not speak up before... well ... that's on them. I am actually on the fence as far as references.... the big problem is they encourage POV-FORKing. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:55, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience[edit]

This should probably be removed because it is clear that this list pays no attention to the four categories agreed upon. In group three it explicitly states psychoanalysis should not be classified as a pseudoscience. But it is included in the list. The article opens with WP:WEASEL words to make items included in the list to be as indiscriminatory as possible. I don't understand why the guidelines that the arbitration committee are not being used. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 22:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

There are a few on the list that I feel at least fall into categories 3 and/or 4. But to start it off, is there objection to me removing Psychoanalysis per Pseudoscience Arbitration Final Decision. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 19:45, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
If it's been characterized as pseudoscience, it belongs on the list. Alexbrn (talk) 19:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
As noted above, the pseudoscience arbitration final decision explicitly states that it should not be characterized as a pseudo-science. The language reads "17) Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."-Xcuref1endx (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
This is a list of topics which have been characterized as pseudoscience, so if psychoanalysis has it remains here. Arbcom have no standing to make content decisions (and in any case you are misunderstanding this ancient ruling, which pertains to how Wikipedia characterizes psychoanalysis, not to how Wikipedia reports others have characterized it). Alexbrn (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I am having a difficult time making the distinction between "have been characterized" as you describe it against "should not be so characterized" by the Arbcom decision. Even more, it seems to be a bit of wikilawyering in trying to draw a distinction between how Wikipedia characterizes an item, and how wikipedia reports how others have characterized it. If the arbcom states it shouldn't be categorized at such, it would seem WP:POV pushing to include it.-Xcuref1endx (talk) 20:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Not wikilawyering, but a crucial distinction. And to repeat Arbcom (let alone Arbcom from 11 years ago) has no standing in deciding this article's content - even if they thought their ruling applied. Alexbrn (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
The word "characterized" in the title allows for a long list of entries. QuackGuru (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Monatomic gold[edit]

A Wiki search for "Monatomic gold" redirects here, but there is no mention on the page. Was its inclusion here deleted without cause? RobP (talk) 22:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't know why its not here but (bad memory, it was me) one very good reason is topics here should be notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. Monatomic gold does not meet that criteria. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Went ahead and removed it. We do not WP:LABEL without good reason. There is a suggestion here that it should have an article and that is more of a requirement at List of topics characterized as pseudoscience, should be a "topic" (article) first. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Went ahead and reinstated it. Please see my new section at the bottom of the Gold article for my argument as to why such an item is needed - regardless of whether it has enough material to be covered by its own article. This is a real thing and dangerous. If WP does not mention it, and point out that it is bogus, there is no hope for dissuading people from using it who find only positive hits via Google. RobP (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
rv'ed again, please read the note at the top of this article re: "notability should be established at the main article first", notability is disputed there. Also please note: Wikipedia is not a soapbox, material should not be included solely because of good (or bad) intentions. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Two things: First, where is it written that a link in such a list MUST BE a stand alone article? If that is so I stand down gladly, but please point that out to me. Second, your revert comment mentioned that you dispute Science-Based Medicine as a WP:RS just because it is "a blog". That is a ridiculous assertion as this particular blog is definitely a WP:RS and is used all over WP to counter health pseudoscience. RobP (talk) 22:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Blogs are iffy (see WP:USERGENERATED). Even if it passes that criteria we have WP:LABEL - Contentious labels "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". So we need more than one blog and "widely used" would naturally have to be widely covered, a notability of article topic level. Also- this is a list, its used to navigate to articles that have a certain content, need to have an article to navigate to. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

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