Talk:List of shortest-lived sovereign states

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
WikiProject Countries (Rated List-class)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.
WikiProject Politics (Rated List-class)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Lists (Rated List-class)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Former countries (Rated List-class)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
 List  This article has been rated as List-Class on the project's quality scale.

The Catalan Republic was declared for 48 seconds. after this period the Catalan President suspended it waiting for an international mediation and talks with the Spanish government. The independence is not effective but it's there, because it was declared.

Sources for Catalonia lasting a few seconds[edit]

Let's preface that the article clearly states that it's about proclaimed states, to do away with some meaningless arguments. Let's continue with the many sources that talk about the Catalan Republic declaring independence but it only lasting a few seconds. Virtually every single news outlet in the world describes the event as declaring independence, and after a few seconds of the independence having been proclaimed, suspending it.

As per the sources talking about it lasting 8 seconds, detractors cherrypicked the few that mention Wikipedia. Many don't mention Wikipedia at all. That's secondary, though, as it clearly only lasted a handful of seconds, that most people on the world agree to be 8 seconds.

It seems absolutely clear for virtually everyone who has no reason to be biased on this topic, that the Catalan Republic holds the all-time record for the shortest lived proclaimed sovereign state.

The president of Catalonia has invented Quantum Politics, where likes Schrodinger´s cat, he proclaimed independence and yet he did not. We will only have a definite answer is we open his head an look? Hopefully the courts will deal with the mater, he will be tried for treason, and we will have a judges ruling on whether independence was declared or not, until then, goodbye and goodnight. Cgonzalezdelhoyo (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

--Telextwain (talk) 09:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually, your own sources say otherwise. Let's see:
NYT: To add to the confusion, Mr. Puigdemont and other separatist lawmakers later signed a document proclaiming Catalan independence — a signing that separatist lawmakers argued should not be seen as more than an opportunity to negotiate over independence with Madrid.
Independent: President Carles Puigdemont pulls back from brink over independence declaration and calls for talks over crisis. and Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has pulled back from the brink of a full-blown unilateral declaration of independence for the region.
The Guardian: Addressing the Catalan parliament on Tuesday evening, Puigdemont said that, while the referendum earlier this month had given his government a mandate to create a sovereign republic, he would not immediately push ahead with independence from Spain.
The FT source requires subscription.
Time: Catalonia's leader Carles Puigdemont says the region has won the right to independence following a highly disputed Oct. 1 referendum, but stopped short of making a declaration in order to pursue a dialogue with Spain.
BBC: Catalan President Carles Puigdemont and other regional leaders have signed a declaration of independence from Spain, following the disputed referendum. However, they say the move will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.
The source does not state independence was declared, but that Puigdemont said that he will proceed with Catalan independence (when?). And even this would be in open contradiction with some of the sources you've provided.
The Buzzfeed and Sputniknews sources just seem to be making jokes out of the whole issue with memes (thus, not WP:RELIABLE), even referencing the attempt on 10 October to include Catalonia in this article as an independent state (this would be WP:CIRCULAR; Wikipedia can't be used to reference itself).
As per the 8 seconds claim, your own Buzzfeed source says it was 6, not 8, and does so jokingly. Other sources you provide saying "independence lasted for 8 seconds" also argue that, in fact, independence did not happen (the 8 seconds claim being used only in irony, that's the issue of using opinion articles as sources...).
So, all reliable sources agree that it was a very confusing matter. Others acknowledge the fact it was an event worth joking at. But in the end, none of them acknowledge that an actual independence declaration took place–even for a few seconds–but rather that it was announced in some form yet postponed for later. And yet, this article is about proclaimed sovereign states. So, even a mere proclamation would not be enough for an entity to be included in this page; it also must be a sovereign state. And that's not something you can proclaim or declare: a sovereign state has some requisites which, in this case, no source seems to affirm for that alleged few-second independent Catalonia.
Also, Puigdemont himself acknowlegded he did not declare independence in his second response to the Spanish government over the Article 155 requirements, but that he "would do so". Check it:
In any case, thank you for the sourcing, as they indeed prove the claim for a "few-second Catalonia" has no sense in this article, though I'm still surprised there are some people still attempting to justify something that did not happen. In any case, we should wait to see what happens today. Today a non-fake declaration of independence may be proclaimed, though this would still leave us the issue on whether Catalonia would be a "sovereign state" (even an unrecognized one) or if independence would be merely symbolic. Impru20 (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

48 seconds, new world record[edit]

Catalonia, 48 seconds as state must appear!!

Be serious

Why so serius?

The catalan president declared independence and seconds later placed it on halt... it should be on the list, I think IMpru20 is influenced by his political inclination Raul Lapeira 20:31, 11 Oct 2017 (UTC)
I've provided plenty of sources and Wikipedia policies that back my claim that placing a some-second Catalan state in the list is not appropiate in the circumstances this has happened, a position which has been voiced by other users too. If you can disprove all the sources that say that independence did not effectively happen, the Catalan Generalitat's own claim that independence will not be effective until the Parliament votes on it AND that Catalonia was an effective sovereign state and not a proto-state or no state at all for some seconds, do it. In the meanwhile, I'd suggest you to consider abiding to WP:GOODFAITH instead of proclaiming random accusations against others without proof. Thank you. Impru20 (talk) 18:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
If you want to see Puigdemont a.k.a. Puchi, in jail for treason you are doing it wrong IMpru20. It is independentists who are interested in negating that it was a declaration of independence, as it was international ridicule. The catalan president (yes, Catalonia has its own president, parliament, taxes, runs education and health and even censors the use of spanish i.e. their police, the Mossos, do not have their web in Spanish) wants the declaration of independence, without the cost, i.e. prison term. In the meantime, Catalonia is paying a heavy long term price in terms of business moving elsewhere, as Catalonia is their base, but their marque is the rest of spain. 13:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)Cgonzalezdelhoyo (talk)
Impru20 is very clearly politically motivated. There's a myriad of articles, from the biggest and most important Spanish newspapers, and from other countries too, that agree that independence was declared and then halted after 8 seconds, the world record for a shorted-lived sovereign state. Impru20 being from Spain obviously disqualifies him from being neutral.--Ochrealana (talk) 09:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
He is doing it wrong. Those who claim that it was not independence are the independentist, as it was a hugee dissapointment and photos of such a moment have become memes that will last decades. Cgonzalezdelhoyo (talk) 13:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)


There needs to be good sourcing that Niue became a sovereign state in 1974. (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The entire article needs sourcing. At the moment, there is not a single source in the entire article. It has been tagged for four months. How do we know these are the "shortest-lived sovereign states"? It is debatable that many of these are even states. I'm tempted to nominate this for deletion. TDL (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
See the Niue Constitution Act of 1974. [Soffredo] Journeyman 3 23:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The only source that page you linked has is support for a particular governmental position, ie. unrelated to the topic at hand. Here is the Niue Constitution Act, where the word "independence" does not appear. CMD (talk) 13:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

8 second Catalonia[edit]

What's so wrong with it? Seems like a legitimate entry to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

There has not been any independence declaration in Catalonia. Filiprino (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


A spokesman for the central government in Madrid said it rejected Catalonia’s “tacit” Declaration of Independence. Source:

Definition of tacit: tacit ˈtasɪt/Submit adjective understood or implied without being stated. "your silence may be taken to mean tacit agreement" synonyms: implicit, understood, implied, inferred, hinted, suggested, insinuated;

Also, a Declaration of Independence has been signed according to major Spanish newspaper El País:

So perhaps Spanish nationalism has been vandalizing this page after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes it has been declared

This must be a joke. Please remove the 8 seconds Republic of Catalunia. Tarantino (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

After he declared independence, there was an 8 second period where Catalonia had declared independence. Then he suspended it. Suspension means it still holds legal validity, just not enforced. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:52, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

This was a legit decleration lasting 8 seconds and should be included Castro1997 (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I do not agree. It was declared, but not signed until later. So either Catalonia is considered independent with "No recognition", counting from the instant of the signature until today, or it must be removed from the list. But those 8 seconds are meaningless.Pablompa (talk) 09:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I think that it's a safe idea for now to wait and see how long Catalonia lasts. The verbal declaration was unsigned so it doesn't really count, and Catalonia hasn't been dissolved yet so we don't know where it will be on the list.Goclonefilms (talk) 20:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

About Catalan Independence[edit]

Catalan independence have not been declared. To be a sovereign country you need to meet certain requirements, not met in this occasion.

Any way, since it is suspended waiting for dialogue , it could not be considered sovereign country yet.Chemcoes (talk) 18:39, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Is more like no one in 'El pais' speaks Catalan, or they want the best head. Puigdemont have not declared the independence of Catalonia, yet, but he have proposed the temporal suspension of the consequences of the referendum. [1] Parénquima (talk) 18:46, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
There has been no independence, not even an unrecognized one. It's just absurd to say Catalonia was independent for 8 seconds. Impru20 (talk) 18:52, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Nope... — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

He has said it is suspended. In the same speech. So there was no effective independence, Catalonia has not been independent for 8 seconds. Impru20 (talk) 19:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
The President of Catalonia declared that Catalonia is independent, and then declared that this state of independence is suspended. So, Catalonia was independent for 8 seconds. This is confirmed by the citations. Note that this article is about states who proclaimed themselves independent (see lede), so it doesn't matter that there wasn't any change to the de facto governance of Catalonia during those 8 seconds. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 19:19, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Puigdemont did immediately suspend an alleged independence within seconds from, theoretically, having declaring it. Since we must assume people may have some difficulty in making several statements at once, the 8-second timespan is just the time it costed to him to say he was suspending independence. His speech was written, he readed it, so we must assume his will was to suspend it all along from the very beginning and that, in fact, no independence took place. Having Catalonia as independent for 8 seconds (which, btw, I think is a quite random timespan... why not 6? Or 7? Or 9?) it's just absurd, and even inflammatory or derisive of the whole situation. Impru20 (talk) 19:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

- Catalonia has been independent during 2 minutes (president's speech and applause). Then, Carles Puigdemont has suspended it for dialogue. I propose to protect this article for some hours! --BroOkWiki (talk) 19:17, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I support that there wasn't any declaration of independence. The exact quote in Catalan is ""Assumeixo el mandat del poble...", which in english is "I assume the mandate of the people...". So, Puigdemont told he is assuming a mandate, not proclaming any independence. --Mcsmp (talk) 19:19, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
But it follows "el mandat que Catalunya esdevingui un estat independent en forma de república." ("the mandate for Catalonia becomes an independent state in a republic form). Now they're signing the declaration of independence document. We have to wait, so I propose to protect this page. --BroOkWiki (talk) 19:24, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
But even if they're signing a document or whatever, it is suspended. So "independence" would only take place after the suspension is lifted. Impru20 (talk) 19:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Your personal opinions don't matter. That's not how Wikipedia works. What matters is what the press reports. The press is reporting that he declared independence, and then suspended it. It's that simple. La Vanguardia is a Catalan newspaper and it's reporting the same.--Meijipiety (talk) 19:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Anyway, Catalonia has been independent for more than 1 minute (not only 8 seconds). --BroOkWiki (talk) 19:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I actually can't find any source stating the time in which it was allegedly independent (where do the 8 seconds come from??). So I think all of this is just WP:OR. Impru20 (talk) 19:44, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The amount of vandalism and disruptive editing in this page is ridiculously insane. Impru20 (talk) 19:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

For this reason, I'm proposing to protect this article. --BroOkWiki (talk) 19:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I already requested it. Impru20 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The independence not only was declared but was also signed. Even pictures of Carles Puigdemont signing the declaration are available here [2]. About the argument that this declaration has not been recognized, the page has a legend and a color to use in those declarations that haven't been recognized, so that's why I updated the page using that color. About the argument that Catalonia was not a sovereign country, well here [3] you have the full text of the declaration. There will be juridical consecuences of this declaration (That did happen). And even when I understand that there are many people politically motivated to erode the reallity, there was a unilateral declaration of independence (As Carles explained, because he believe he had the mandate because of the Referendum Act) and he suspended it 8 seconds later (Because he knows that this would lead him to an arrest). If you want to explain the whole picture, you can explain it, but THERE WAS A DECLARATION (Also a 8 seconds celebration), and the vandalism is not about telling what millions of people saw yesterday... vandalism is trying to wipe it out from history. Anarcocapitalista1981 (talk) 09:23, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Your own sources acknowledge the signed declaration has no legal value or effect. The source for the "8 second"-thing seems to be Wikipedia itself as mirrored by some sources ([1] [2]), which violates WP:CIRCULAR, and they're also using it to joke and mock on the issue. There is also the question of whether any eventual independent Catalonia would be a sovereign state or a proto-state; as most sources don't recognize independence even took place, they don't make it clear what kind of state would it constitute (if it was a proto-state, this page wouldn't be the place for it). Impru20 (talk) 09:36, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Don't worry, let's wait. Mariano Rajoy has just asked Carles Puigdelmont to aclare if he has or has not declared the independence. We will see who is right. Carles will answer all of us.--Anarcocapitalista1981 (talk) 11:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I'd say that given the timespan, I don't think the "proto-state" argument is valid here. For one, there's already restrictions on the concept of a proto-state in application for this article, for instance in regards to the the very short-lived Republic of Louisiana, there was likely nothing more than what constituted the previous State of Louisiana before it joined the CSA. Catalonia likewise has its own state institutions as a part of Spain. As well, based on WP:CONSISTENCY, some "sovereign states" on this list -- in no small part due to the fact they were short-lived -- are proto-states. The most notable example I can find is Azawad. Furthermore, if anyone is making fun of Catalonia's eight seconds of independence, what does that have to do with the article? Nuke (talk) 19:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Taken from the proto-state article itself: the term proto-state has most often been evoked in reference to militant secessionist groups that claim, and exercise some form of territorial control over, a specific region but lack institutional cohesion
Pro-independentists control the Catalan government, a slim majority in the Catalan Parliament and, indeed, a vast majority of Catalan municipalities (most of them, however, being those with the lowest population). On the other hand, those not in the pro-independence side have control of the judiciary in Catalonia, the other half of the Catalan Parliament and the most-populated municipalities (including the capital, Barcelona). I can't see any institutional cohesion here, and as for the rest of the definition Catalonia may fit on it just perfectly.
But of course, this is not an actual issue, because for that to be an issue, we should have conflicting sources discussing that Catalonia is/was either a sovereign state or a proto-state during those... eight? five? nine? thirty? seconds. And there is none, as even the Catalan government itself has declared that the independence declaration was symbolic, not effective.
Just as a few examples. Impru20 (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

this could be perfectly included because the Spanish government considers that independence has been declared. Novoa199 (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

--- What about the 6 days republic of catalonia proclaimed by Pau Claris in 1641 before putting Catalonia under French sovereignty? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Catalonia 2017[edit]

So, now that the page has been protected, I think we should discuss what to do with this little issue of the 8-second independent 2017 Catalonia. Firstly, the 8-second thing seems to have been entirely made up (where's the source claiming it was independent for such a time?). Then, how can we argue that it was independent if the independence was allegedly declared (albeit on a dubious wording) and suspended in the same speech? Some sources (such as the CNN, The Guardian, The Independent, BBC, Financial Times, Al Jazeera, Daily Express, Vox (not the party lol), Los Angeles Times, MSN, SBS, ABC (Australia), Bloomberg, France24) do not consider anything close to independence has taken place in any form. Others (such as Politico or Reuters) say independence was declared, but immediately suspended (essentially a 0-sec independence) or even uneffective. Further, is it really relevant to note that Catalonia was independent for a few seconds at most? Really? Would not it be better to wait whether the suspension is lifted or maintained indefinitely? Summoning Carlitoscarlos, BroOkWiki, Mcsmp, Chessrat and whoever interested to the discussion. Impru20 (talk) 19:50, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Catalan independence could be included perfectly because the Spanish government considers that independence has been declared and annulled or postponed Novoa199 (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

But that's not what sources are saying. Further, if it was declared but anulled or postponed, then it means it lasted about 0 seconds (well, yeah, it took Puigdemont a a few more seconds to go from allegedly "declaring" it to suspending it, but I think it's perfectly understood that suspension had immediate effect, so no independence). Impru20 (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
It is what *some* sources are saying (although CNN disagrees), so I would suggest that there should be a note in the article about how sources differ regarding whether the 8-second-self-declared-independence actually happened. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 20:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
@Chessrat: Add The Guardian, The Independent, BBC, Financial Times... I think it's the other way around: *some* sources say it was independent, but many others don't. And to maintain that independence was effective for 0 secs, 1 sec, 2 secs, 3 secs... when even those sources that say that independence was declared, also say it was immediately suspended, looks very weird. Also, you are not answering where the "8-sec" thing comes from. Impru20 (talk) 20:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

You're right. Considering 8 seconds independence is stupid. Right now theoretically Catalonia is an independent state because they have just signed independence now. Surely tomorrow will have to add this but with 1 day of duration Novoa199 (talk) 20:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Novoa199: Actually, most sources do not consider Catalonia has been independent at all. Not even 1 second. And those that do, say it was an uneffective formal proclamation, rather than an explicit independence declaration. Btw, saying that Catalonia was independent for one full day is obviously OR. I say we wait until we see what happens with the suspension. Because if it is truly lifted within a few weeks, we may be wasting our time now adding a slot for a 2017 Catalan state that may be needed for later in 2017 or for 2018. And if it is not independent at all, it may be pointless to show an uneffective Catalan independent state proclamation in this table. Impru20 (talk) 20:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Easier: Puigdemont and many deputies signed the independence some minutes ago. In any case, it had no effect since they have it suspended. 1 and 2 Parénquima (talk) 21:17, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Your own sources say such a paper doesn't have any legal effectivity or validity (not even respect to the independentists' own legality) aside from being a symbolic gesture. Indeed, the CUP is going to leave the Catalan Parliament until independence is declared. So (and together with the English sources I already provided) = currently not declared. Impru20 (talk) 21:36, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
That's my point. I don't see any doubt, just the absence of confident and neutral spanish newspapers. I must say that some people have been twitting about this page, as i have some experience with vandalism in i´ve come here to see. The page should continue with the semi-protection for some time. Parénquima (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm check English sources, please. Many of these don't even acknowledge any independence took place, and those that do say it was uneffective because of the immediate suspension, so the answer to if there was a Catalan independent state on 10 October seems to lead to "No" in all cases. Impru20 (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

What this article is lacking is a definition of what counts as independence. This is a pretty basic requirement - we need clear some way of telling what belongs and what does not. Particularly on a topic like this that almost by definition will deal almost entirely in edge cases. The best definition this article gives is that "[i]t lists all proclaimed sovereign states" - and yes the word "proclaimed" really does link to The Proclaimers.

By any standard measure Catalonia is not and has not at any point today been independent. At no stage did Catalonia meet any recognised definition of an independent state. Was there a formal declaration of independence that was rescinded 8 seconds later? I do not believe so, but if there was it doesn't change that conclusion because a declaration of independence does not in and of itself create an independent state (again, by any standard definition). But does the answer to that question matter here? No idea. The list simply isn't well enough defined to allow us to decide. Kahastok talk 21:44, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I've fixed the proclaimed and added a link to a more correct article. (The previous link really re-directed to The Proclaimers? Lol). As for the condition of "independent", states shown in the list in this article include both widely recognized, partially recognized and non-recognized independent states. The issue in the case of this "Catalan state" comes because most English reliable sources don't recognize independence was declared at all. Others say independence was declared, but then immediately suspended (so, it was independent for... 0 seconds? Does that even make any sense?). And some people here come with a random figure that Catalonia was independent for 8 seconds, an unsourced figure that seemingly reflects the amount of time it took Puigdemont to say "I defend the mandate of the people of Catalonia to become an independent republic" (as quoted by the CNN) to declare that effects of any independence were suspended for a few weeks. I think this could have been overtly different if the declaration of independence and its suspension were declared in different speechs, but having been seconds away we may safely assume the suspension was immediate, and thus any declaration of independence that may be interpreted from Puigdemont's words, uneffective. Put this together to the fact that an 8-second independence listed in the table seems more like a joke and as derisive or ridicule, so I don't think this is of any help. We can safely assume Catalonia has not been effectively independent today at any point. Impru20 (talk) 21:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree. It's stupid and even rude to consider a some-second independent state. It's logical that the independence declaration and suspension was in the same speech, so Catalonia has not been an active independent state. In my opinion, we have to wait some weeks before including any reference to Catalonia in this article. In this weeks, we will see how is applied the declaration of independence signed document, what will be the Spanish response and some international reactions. --BroOkWiki (talk) 22:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
This is pretty BS. The whole article is an article about the shortest-lived sovereign states. The article includes other non recognized declaration, so the argument that "Catalonia was not independent because it wasn't recognized" only using it in the case of Catalonia is just politically motivated. Here you can see, on an english source, that Carles Puigdemont SIGNED the declaration. So there was a declaration (HuffPost). Because there was a declaration, there will be consecuences.Anarcocapitalista1981 (talk) 09:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Then 1) source where it is said Catalonia has been a "sovereign state" (and not other kind of independent state; a proto-state for example; or no state at all) on 10 October; 2) source where it is said that Catalonia was independent on 10 October for 8 seconds, without it constituting a WP:CIRCULAR issue or a clear violation of WP:PRIMARY and WP:OR by directly fabricating such a number from a video or whatever. And finally, try to provided a counter to all current sources (even the HuffPost one you provide) that clearly state the signed declaration by Puigdemont has no legal value or effect. Here's another source from today which puts it very clear, from The Telegraph.
Because there was a declaration, there will be consecuences --> this clearly constitutes WP:SYNTH. Impru20 (talk) 09:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that, per WP:ASSERT, you shouldn't fall into the pitfall of dismissing an event for it's "ridiculousness" or "stupidity". If you think one side is correct or that the whole ordeal is a "joke" or "ilegitimate", I'd like to point to WP:NPOV and ask you to refrain from this matter. While this is a complex matter that won't resolve for weeks or most likely months, what should appear in the Wikipedia are facts, and those shouldn't be clouded by someone's take on the issue. Sometimes modern politics seem silly and change in the most unexpected ways from the most stupid of situations, but we have the tools to properly record and report what happened and exactly how it happened. Put them to good use. I also agree that the page being vandalized as a result of becoming viral needs the page to become protected until the situation settles in, and O place my trust in the good will and neutrality of the editors who take on this mess after it's resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree. No matter how ridiculous, Catalan independence did last for eight seconds. Nuke (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:RL, we should abide to what reliable sources say, and it's clear that English sources say that no independence happened, or that it happened but was immediately suspended. Curiously, I've seen a couple Madrid-based anti-independence Spanish sources reporting on the 8-seconds thing. Their source? This Wikipedia page (El Español Antena 3), which is a clear case of WP:CIRCULAR. So, we've come to the point that some Spanish sources say it was 8 seconds because someone here in Wikipedia made an entry in the list saying it was 8 seconds, and these sources were using the entry for 2017 Catalonia in this page to clearly mock and joke on the issue. So no, WP:ASSERT is not of application here. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and we should not be originally researching things. Wait until the suspension is either lifted or permanently maintained to declare Catalonia independent or not. As of now, it's clear Catalan independence did not last for eight seconds. Impru20 (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, this article lists "sovereign states", which means "juridical entities represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area (...) having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." However, even those sources acknowledging that independence was declared and then immediately suspended do not make any precision as to whether this would be a sovereign state or, rather, a proto-state (which could also fit the situation, due to the clash of legal legitimacies here and that many municipalities would not recognize any kind of independence). So it could be that this is not even the most appropiate article for this. Impru20 (talk) 07:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
First, it's clear that independence was immediately, seven/eight seconds later, suspended. We all agree on this. Second, Catalonia declared its own independence. I did not. Third, precedent says that Iraqi Kurdistan is a proto-state and therefore Catalonia likely is as well, and proto-states are, for the purposes of this article, sovereign states. You can start a debate on if all proto-states currently listed in this article should be removed or not at another time, but this discussion is already convoluted enough, being split between two sections like this. Fourth, you ramble on about legal legitimacies and everything, but this article already includes completely unrecognized unilaterally self-proclaimed states within its bounds, as long as they are not micronations -- e.g. an actual Emperor Norton-esque self-proclaimed state. This article does not express any legal opinions, and likewise demanding this article to recognize a legal legitimacy would constitute a point of view. Nuke (talk) 05:18, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Your entire comment provides no source to back up your claims. First, no, many users in this talk agree that independence did not happen (that's what most sources report, in fact). Your second point is a consequence of your first one, so it's wrong as well. Third, provide a source that says Catalonia is a proto-state or a sovereign state on its own during those eight/seven/nine/fourty/one hundred and fifty six seconds and then we could start discussing whether it was one or the other, but if it was not independent, it is obvious it wasn't none. And fourth: I've not said anything about legal legitimacies as you claim. I've only said once there was a clash of legal legitimacies, but I did not point that as an argument (only as a claim that could support the proto-state argument, but if we don't have sources it's pointless), so that you say that I "ramble" about it is so... lol. Impru20 (talk) 10:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017[edit]

Extended content

This is a list of the shortest-lived sovereign states. It lists all proclaimed sovereign states (excluding micronations) that lasted for less than 1 year.


  Widely recognized
  Limited recognition
  No recognition


Short and formal names Declared Dissolved Lifespan Predecessors Successors Notes
Catalonian Republic October 10, 2017 0 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes, 8 seconds Spain Carles Puigdemont, president of Catalonia, declared the foundation of an independent Catalan Republic, followed by a round of applause in the Parliament of Catalonia. However, unexpectedly, he immediately proceeded to suspend it in order to open a dialogue and a favourable agreement with the Spanish Government.[1][2][3]

- style="background:LightCoral;"

Catalonia – Catalan State October 10, 2017 October 10, 2017 0 days, 0 hours, 8 seconds 23x15px Spanish Kingdom


Russia – Russian Democratic Federative Republic January 19, 1918 0 days, 6 hours Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
Catalonia – Catalan State October 6, 1934 October 7, 1934 0 days, 10 hours Second Spanish Republic
 Abu Dhabi – Emirate of Abu Dhabi December 1, 1971 December 2, 1971 1 day Trucial States  United Arab Emirates
 Ajman – Emirate of Ajman
Benin – Republic of Benin September 19, 1967 September 20, 1967 1 day Biafra  Nigeria Puppet state of Biafra
Carpatho-Ukraine March 15, 1939 March 16, 1939 1 day Czechoslovakia Kingdom of Hungary
Crimea – Republic of Crimea May 5, 1992 May 6, 1992[4] 1 day Ukraine
Crimea – Republic of Crimea March 17, 2014 March 18, 2014[5][6] 1 day Ukraine Russia Declared unilateral independence from Ukraine, which continues to claim it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol. Recognized only by Russia.
 Dubai – Emirate of Dubai December 1, 1971 December 2, 1971 1 day Trucial States  United Arab Emirates
Fujairah – Emirate of Fujairah
Galicia – Republic of Galicia June 27, 1931 June 28, 1931 1 day Kingdom of Spain Second Spanish Republic
Republic of Puerto Rico September 23, 1868 September 24, 1868 1 day Kingdom of Spain El Grito de Lares - diverse groups of people fighting together for the revolutionary change of Puerto Rican society.
 Sharjah – Emirate of Sharjah December 1, 1971 December 2, 1971 1 day Trucial States  United Arab Emirates
 Umm al-Quwain – Emirate of Umm al-Quwain
Faroe Islands September 18, 1946 September 20, 1946 2 days  Kingdom of Denmark
Mindanao – Federal Republic of Mindanao October 4, 1990 October 6, 1990 2 days  Philippines
Republic of Ploiești August 8, 1870 August 9, 1870 2 days Kingdom of Romania
Catalonia – Catalan Republic April 14, 1931 April 17, 1931 3 days Kingdom of Spain Second Spanish Republic
State of Somaliland June 26, 1960 July 1, 1960 5 days British Somaliland Somali Republic
Hungary – Hungarian People's Republic August 2, 1919 August 8, 1919 6 days Hungarian Soviet Republic Hungarian Republic
 Hunan Soviet September 7, 1927 September 14, 1927 7 days Republic of China Created by Mao Zedong.
Republic of Martyazo 1 May 1972 9 May 1972 8 days  Burundi
 Prekmurje – Republic of Prekmurje May 29, 1919 June 6, 1919 8 days Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
 East Timor – Democratic Republic of East Timor November 28, 1975 December 7, 1975 9 days  Portugal  Indonesia Declared independence from Portugal, but was soon after joined to Indonesia. Independence restored on May 20, 2002.
Kruševo Republic – Republic of Kruševo August 3, 1903 August 13, 1903 10 days Ottoman Empire Political entity proclaimed in 1903 by rebels from the Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization in Kruševo during the Ilinden–Preobrazhenie Uprising.
Alsace-Lorraine – Republic of Alsace-Lorraine November 10, 1918 November 22, 1918 12 days German Empire French Third Republic The state was proclaimed when the sovereignty of the region was being transferred.
Connacht – Provisional Government of the Province of Connacht August 27, 1798 September 8, 1798 12 days Kingdom of Ireland Recognized only by the French First Republic.
Western Bosnia – Republic of Western Bosnia July 26, 1995 August 7, 1995 12 days Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
Louisiana – Republic of Louisiana January 26, 1861 February 8, 1861 13 days United States Confederate States
 Banat Republic November 1, 1918 November 15, 1918 14 days Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Romania Recognized only by Hungary.
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
State of Singapore[7] August 31, 1963 September 16, 1963 17 days Self-governance of Singapore Singapore in Malaysia
Soviet Slovakia June 16, 1919 July 7, 1919 21 days Czechoslovakia Czechoslovakia Puppet state of the Hungarian Soviet Republic
Hungarian Soviet Republic
Republic of Kuwait[8] August 4, 1990 August 28, 1990 24 days Kuwait Ba'athist Iraq Puppet state of Ba'athist Iraq.
Republic of Alba (1944) October 10, 1944 November 2, 1944 24 days Italian Social Republic A local resistance against Italian fascism during World War II. The one of 20 Italian Partisan Republics
California Republic June 14, 1846 July 9, 1846 25 days Mexico United States
Bremen Soviet Republic January 10, 1919 February 4, 1919 25 days Weimar Republic The republic proclaimed by the workers of Bremen and Bremerhaven, in the context of the upsurge of the revolutionary struggle in Germany.[9] The revolutionary government in Bremerhaven were toppled 8–9 February 1919.
Bavarian Soviet Republic April 6, 1919 May 3, 1919 27 days Weimar Republic
Alabama Republic – Alabama Republic January 11, 1861 February 8, 1861 28 days United States Confederate States
Florida – Republic of Florida January 10, 1861 29 days
Texas – Republic of Texas February 1, 1861 March 2, 1861 29 days
Mississippi – Republic of Mississippi January 9, 1861 February 8, 1861 30 days
State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs October 29, 1918 December 1, 1918 33 days Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
West Florida – Republic of West Florida September 23, 1810 October 27, 1810 34 days Spanish West Florida United States
Transcaucasian Federation – Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic April 22, 1918 May 28, 1918 36 days Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic First Republic of Armenia
Azerbaijan Democratic Republic
Democratic Republic of Georgia
 Labin Republic March 2, 1921 April 8, 1921 37 days Kingdom of Italy
Biak-na-Bato – Republic of the Philippines November 1, 1897 December 15, 1897 44 days Spanish East Indies
Sovereign Tagalog Nation First Philippine Republic
Republic of Ossola September 8, 1944 October 23, 1944 45 days Italian Social Republic A local resistance against Italian fascism during World War II. The one of 20 Italian Partisan Republics
Democratic Republic of Yemen May 21, 1994 July 7, 1994 47 days  Yemen
Palmetto Republic – Republic of South Carolina December 20, 1860 February 8, 1861 50 days United States Confederate States
Land of Iceland – Kingdom of Island June 26, 1809 August 22, 1809 58 days Denmark Danish adventurer Jørgen Jørgensen managed to arrest the governor and proclaimed himself Protector of Iceland, promising that he would reinstate the Althing as soon as the Icelandic people were able to govern themselves.
Inner Mongolian People's Republic September 9, 1945 November 6, 1945 58 days Soviet occupation of Manchuria Communist-controlled China (1927–49)
Mali Federation June 20, 1960 August 20, 1960 62 days French Senegal, French Sudan Senegal, Mali
Saskatchewan – Provisional Government of Saskatchewan March 19, 1885 May 20, 1885 62 days Canada
Bangsamoro Republik – United Federated States of Bangsamoro Republik July 27, 2013 September 28, 2013 64 days  Philippines
Commune of the Working People of Estonia November 29, 1918 February 1, 1919 65 days  Estonia Puppet state of the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic during the Estonian War of Independence. Officially disestablished later in exile, on 5 June 1919.
United Baltic Duchy September 22, 1918 November 28, 1918 67 days German Empire Latvian Provisional Government
Client state of the German Empire
Spanish Haiti – Republic of Spanish Haiti November 30, 1821 February 9, 1822 71 days Santo Domingo Ozama and the Cibao
Soviet Republic of Naissaar – Soviet Republic of Soldiers and Fortress-Builders of Naissaar December 17, 1917 February 26, 1918 72 days Russian Soviet Republic Ober Ost A Soviet Republic on a tiny Estonian island in the aftermath of the October Revolution and during the time of dual power in the Autonomous Governorate of Estonia.
 Ras al-Khaimah – Emirate of Ras al-Khaimah December 1, 1971 February 11, 1972 72 days Trucial States  United Arab Emirates
Lower California – Republic of Baja California November 3, 1853 January 21, 1854 79 days Mexico Republic of Sonora
Komancza Republic November 4, 1918 January 23, 1919 80 days  Austria-Hungary Second Polish Republic
The Great Republic of Rough and Ready April 7, 1850 July 4, 1850 88 days  USA The town Rough and Ready declared its secession from the Union as "the Great Republic of Rough and Ready" in 1850, largely to avoid mining taxes, but voted to rejoin the Union the following year.[10]
Rauracian Republic December 17, 1792 March 23, 1793 96 days Prince-Bishopric of Basel French Republic Client state of France.
Vemerana – Republic of Vemerana May 28, 1980 September 1, 1980 96 days New Hebrides  Vanuatu Recognized only by France.
Azawad – Independent State of Azawad April 6, 2012 July 12, 2012 97 days  Mali
Finland – Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic 29 January 1918 5 May 1918 97 days  Finland (Pehr Evind Svinhufvud's first senate) Kingdom of Finland (1918-19)
Tanna – Nation of Tanna May 24, 1974 June 29, 1974 97 days New Hebrides
Finland – Finnish Democratic Republic December 1, 1939 March 12, 1940 102 days  Finland  Soviet Union Recognized only by the Soviet Union.

Incorporated in 1940 as the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic.

Zanzibar – People's Republic of Zanzibar and Pemba January 12, 1964 April 26, 1964 104 days Sultanate of Zanzibar  Tanzania Recognized by most Eastern Bloc states.
Juliana Republic July 24, 1839 November 15, 1839 114 days Empire of Brazil
Moldavian Republic – Moldavian Democratic Republic December 15, 1917 April 9, 1918 115 days Russian Republic Kingdom of Romania
Sonora – Republic of Sonora January 10, 1854 May 8, 1854 118 days Lower California Mexico
Hungary – Hungarian State April 14, 1849 August 13, 1849 121 days Hungarian Kingdom Hungarian Kingdom
Hungary – Hungarian People's Republic November 16, 1918 March 21, 1919 125 days Hungarian Kingdom Hungarian Soviet Republic
Mirdita – Republic of Mirdita July 17, 1921 November 20, 1921 126 days Principality of Albania Recognized only by the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
Republic of Užice July 28, 1941 December 1 1941 129 days Kingdom of Yugoslavia Axis occupation of Serbia
Soviet Hungary – Hungarian Soviet Republic March 21, 1919 August 1, 1919 133 days Hungarian People's Republic
Texas – Republic of Texas April 6, 1813 August 18, 1813 134 days New Spain
Parthenopean Republic January 21 1799 June 13 1799 143 days Kingdom of Naples Recognized only by the French First Republic and Puppet state of the French First Republic
Roman Republic (19th century) February 9, 1849 July 2, 1849 144 days Papal States One of Italian revolutionary state in 1848-49.
Syria – Arab Kingdom of Syria March 8, 1920 July 24, 1920 138 days  Occupied Enemy Territory Administration State of Aleppo
State of Damascus
Jabal Druze State
Ezo – Republic of Ezo January 27, 1869 June 27, 1869 151 days Tokugawa Shogunate Empire of Japan Recognized by France and the United Kingdom.
Formosa – Democratic State of Taiwan May 23, 1895 October 21, 1895 151 days Qing Dynasty Empire of Japan
 Hutsul Republic January 8, 1919 June 11, 1919 154 days Austria-Hungary Czechoslovakia
West Ukrainian People's Republic
Cabinda – Republique du Kabinda August 1, 1975 January 4, 1976 156 days Cabinda Province  Angola
People's Republic of Korea September 6, 1945 February 8, 1946 155 days Korea under Japanese rule Provisional People's Committee for North Korea
United States Army Military Government in Korea
Arab Federation January 1, 1958 July 30, 1958 169 days Kingdom of Iraq Iraqi Republic
Zimbabwe Rhodesia – Republic of Zimbabwe Rhodesia June 1, 1979 December 12, 1979 194 days Rhodesia Southern Rhodesia
Dubrovnik Republic (1991) 15 October 1991 4 May 1992 202 days Croatia
Hungary – Hungarian Republic August 8, 1919 February 29, 1920 205 days Hungarian People's Republic Kingdom of Hungary
SSR Abkhazia – Socialist Soviet Republic of Abkhazia May 21, 1921 December 16, 1921 209 days Democratic Republic of Georgia  Soviet Union
Tafea – Tafea Nation February 14, 1958 August 2, 1958 211 days New Hebrides  Vanuatu
Genoa – Republic of Genoa April 26, 1814 January 7, 1815 211 days First French Empire Kingdom of Sardinia
Political Committee of National Liberation 10 March 1944 9 October 1944 214 days Hellenic State (1941–44) Kingdom of Greece
Freistaat Schwenten January 5, 1919 August 10, 1919 218 days German Empire Weimar Republic After the 1st World war the townsfolk of Schwenten took their fate into their own hands, the inhabitants of Schwenten declared their independence — and their neutrality. When it became clear that Schwenten would remain part of Germany, the state disbanded itself on 10 August 1919, declaring itself part of Germany. This only took effect on 9 June 1920, when the Treaty of Versailles came into force.[11]
Markovo Republic October 31, 1905 June 18, 1906 231 days Russian Empire One of about 14 local authorities, who founded the first Russian Revolution of 1905.
Duchy of Courland and Semigallia March 8, 1918 November 8, 1918 245 days German Empire Latvian Provisional Government Client state of the German Empire
Ukraine – Ukrainian State April 29, 1918 December 14, 1918 249 days Ukrainian People's Republic Directorate of Ukraine
Bagysstan – Independent Bagys-Kazakh Republic December 30, 2001 September 9, 2002 254 days Uzbekistan Kazakhstan A period of a territorial dispute between Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan: the Uzbek village of Kazakh residents declaring independence, in September after the national agreement village for compensation becomes a Kazakh territory
Norway – Kingdom of Norway 16 February, 1814 4 November, 1814 261 days Denmark–Norway United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway Norway declared its independence, as a result of the refusal of the Treaty of Kiel after the Napoleonic Wars, adopted a Constitution and elected Danish Prince Christian Frederik as its own king. Resulting to a short war with Sweden, leading to Norway accepting entering into a personal union with Sweden at the Convention of Moss.
Lithuania – Kingdom of Lithuania February 16, 1918 November 9, 1918 266 days German Empire Lithuania Client state of the German Empire
West Ukraine – West Ukrainian People's Republic October 18, 1918 July 17, 1919 272 days Austria-Hungary First Czechoslovak Republic
Second Polish Republic
Kingdom of Romania
Ukrainian People's Republic
Goshen – State of Goshen October 24, 1882 August 6, 1883 286 days No predecessor United States of Stellaland
White Ruthenian Democratic Republic – Belarusian People's Republic March 25, 1918 January 5, 1919 286 days Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic Lithuanian–Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic The Rada of the BDR is the oldest existing government in exile.
Second Polish Republic
Ukrainian People's Republic
Acre – Third Republic of Acre January 27, 1903 November 11, 1903 288 days  Bolivia  Brazil
Rio Grande – Republic of the Río Grande January 17, 1840 November 6, 1840 294 days  Mexico  Mexico
Republic of Texas
United States of Belgium January 11, 1790 December 2, 1790 325 days Habsburg Monarchy
North Solomons – Republic of the North Solomons September 1, 1975 August 7, 1976 341 days Papua & New Guinea
Iranian Azerbaijan – Azerbaijan People's Government November 1945 November 1946 ~1 year Pahlavi dynasty Puppet state of the Soviet Union



Not done. First, please get consensus for an edit before making an edit request. Second, please do not copy-paste the entire article to this page, but rather make it clear what changes should be made in a much shorter form. Kahastok talk 20:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, to avoid confusion, I have nowiki'ed the section headings in the collapsed section. Kahastok talk 20:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I understand what happened but someone just removed the Catalan Republic from 1934... — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:29, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017[edit] (talk) 21:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Kahastok talk 21:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017[edit] (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Not done: Empty request, nothing to do - FlightTime (open channel) 21:52, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Illa de Arousa[edit]

You have to translate this article and add it to this list: gl:República Federal da Illa de Arousa.—Oxoan (talk) 22:51, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017[edit]

Novoa199 (talk) 23:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

8 seconds of Catalonia independence[edit]

In the case that finally include the Independence of Catalonia in the list change the 8 seconds to 44 because 8 seems to be a joke. In this video you can see how long it lasts — Preceding unsigned comment added by Novoa199 (talkcontribs) 23:12, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Has been removed. Stickee (talk) 01:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I would like to add that I think removing this part is the correct thing to do. The text of the Declaration of Independence has been signed by those political parties in the Catalan Parliament in favor of Independence. However, the text has been "suspended immediately" as stated by Puigdemont, and also has yet to be published in the ca:Diari Oficial de la Generalitat de Catalunya, which is the official gazette of Catalonia. So, legally, the Declaration of Independence has not yet been effective any single moment.--Santanyiner (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

In case there's a need of a reference for the 8 seconds claim, here's one. [3] (It links to this very article, but it's not using it to make the claim, instead describing the sequence of events. However, it's true that the video shows a longer time between the two sentences, so the "8 seconds" is not reliable). As for the independence not being legally declared, is that different to any of the others listed as "No recognition"? Diego (talk) 09:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

It's clearly taking the 8 seconds claim from previous edits in this article (mentioning it just right after linking to this article), back when there was a fight back-and-forth adding and removing the entry for the "2017 Catalan state". WP:CIRCULAR. Impru20 (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit]

Change President of Aragon to President of the Generalitat of Catalonia Krlooss (talk) 08:26, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Impru20 (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit] (talk) 08:27, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Cartagena from Spain 185 days in 1873

Not done: This was an insurrection, not the proclamation of a sovereign state. Impru20 (talk) 17:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit]

Catalonia – Catalan State (talk) 09:06, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. If you mean the 1934 Catalan State, this is already fulfilled. If you mean the ongoing controversy over the 2017 one, please seek consensus first. Impru20 (talk) 17:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit]

As of this time, the entry for yesterday's Catalan independence is present in the article source but commented out. This is only fitting, given that even the Spanish president has had to ask whether independence was declared or not. However, as for the contentious time figure, we now have a reliable source. There were 34 seconds of applause after the initial declaration, followed by a 22-second statement suspending it. Therefore, please edit the article source to update the time to 56 seconds and add the linked source; leaving the entry commented out pending further discussion is OK. (talk) 10:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, but the source doesn't say that Catalonia was an independent sovereign state during 56 seconds. It only provides the time it cost Puigdemont to pronounce all the words subject to controversy, including JxSí MPs's applause and the such. So, making such an assumption ourselves (that Catalonia was independent for 56 seconds) would be WP:SYNTH, and given that, as has just transpired, even the central government had to formally ask the Catalan government whether it declared independence or not, it is clear that the independence declaration was (ironically) not clear at all. I've left the Catalan entry commented out because of the continuous edit warring over adding it and removing it, so I've left it there just in case we eventually need to rescue it after events develop and further discussion has taken place. Impru20 (talk) 11:02, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Even the Catalan Generalitat requires a UDI to be voted for in a parliamentary session, so the suspended independence would only become active (even if unrecognised by Spain) after such a vote. Culloty82 (talk) 12:35, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit]

This state is missing: Jamechevi (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Impru20 (talk) 17:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2017[edit]

Carlosgh 73 (talk) 15:12, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

- style="background:LightCoral;" | Catalonia – Catalan Republic | October 10, 2017 | October 10, 2017 | 0 days, 0 hours, 8 seconds | colspan="2"|23x15px Spanish Kingdom~

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Also, do not copy-paste a section of the article to this page, but rather make it clear what changes should be made in a shorter form (such as "change X to Y"). Impru20 (talk) 17:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


Is there a reason why the six Emirates that make up the UAE are broken up into three blocks of two here? Weren't they all the same chronological length? Ansat (talk) 22:26, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

8 Seconds[edit]

Just a heads up, Catalonia lasting for 8 seconds is just a meme from 4chan's /pol/ board. (talk) 12:51, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

2017 Catalan Republic[edit]

Can now be officially added to the list. Culloty82 (talk) 13:52, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Not yet. As this article lists "shortest-lived" states, we should now wait until such an "independence" (or whatever it is) ends, as the lists only covers states whose independence ended within a very short timespan from having being declared. Probably this could be done once Article 155 is enforced. Impru20 (talk) 13:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
But Catalonia's independence has been short-lived, so far. The usual way we deal with things like this is to add it without an end date, and move it down the table as it ages. We'd then remove it if it lasted for more than a year. As an example, Donald Trump is listed in List of Presidents of the United States by time in office, even though his term is incomplete. He moves up the list as it goes on. Quantum Burrito (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
You've a point, but I think the difference here is that List of Presidents of the United States by time in office does not intend to exclude any President–regardless of whether they're actually in office or not–whereas List of shortest-lived sovereign states refers to states whose "life" is short, which you wouldn't know until they cease to be independent. Impru20 (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
First, the independence should be implemented (effective control of at least some territory) and be a de facto state, which is not the case.
The speaker has accepted the dissolution of the Catalan Parliament, which in practical terms means the end of any claim to independence. [1] Culloty82 (talk) 12:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Assuming that would be WP:SYNTH. Wait until a source actually declares it over. Impru20 (talk) 12:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, wait until a source declares that it ever existed, beyond the declaration of independence itself. Let's remember that the Catalan government did not even take down the Spanish flag outside the parliament building.FOARP (talk) 09:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
There are sources declaring that it existed ([4] [5])
Another thing is whether it was effective at any point or if it existed beyond the mere independence declaration (which it probably didn't). But sources do show that it existed. Impru20 (talk) 10:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Neither of those articles substantiates existence of the republic beyond the declaration. One has some rather dubious, not reported in any other source, reportage about an attempt to found a crypto-currency - obviously we can now see that this didn't happen so even if this report is accurate it was no more than a plan. The other talks about a "first day" of the Catalan republic but then doesn't actually describe the government having any effective control - Rull went to his office for 40 minutes. For a state to be short-lived it must first have lived, and the evidence for that is somewhat thin. I don't think the Catalan republic should be included here unless there is more evidence provided. That it was declared is undeniable, but more is needed for its inclusion here. FOARP (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


It's official[edit]

Catalonia just declared independence and had it revoked by the Government, we can add it now (I don't know how to edit tables). (talk) 18:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

At present, though, the Catalans still appear to have political control, so perhaps the independence will only end when the announced measures are physically enforced? Culloty82 (talk) 18:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
They don't have full political control, though. They only control one out of the four provincial capitals, with the capital city of the state Barcelona being under control of parties opposing unilateral independence. Most major municipalities are outside pro-independence influence as well. As it seems, this looks like 1934 all over again: just this time, there will be a regional election instead of tanks. Impru20 (talk) 18:51, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
As ever, you should wait till some independent source tell it. There are not reasons to be hurry. Parénquima (talk) 21:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not 1934 again. In 1934 Generalitat at least tried to effectively control the territory of Catalonia. This time they have not done anything to implement real independence.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2017[edit]

Republic of Catalonia 27 October 2017 From 27/10/17 - Present Spain - Republic of Catalonia *Elected in a legal referendum and aproved by the Catalan Parliament. (talk) 19:55, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talkcontribs) 00:25, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2017[edit]

Chronological column sorting doesn't quite work - Iranian Azerbaijan is incorrectly sorted. (talk) 20:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: The sorting on the first column appears to be sorting correctly. Please provide clearer information as to how you think it is behaving incorrectly. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
If you sort by declared descending, then Iranian Azerbaijan appears over all other sovereign states, even recent ones. (talk) 16:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 Done Thank you for the update. The issue was that the Declared and Dissolved dates were given as Month + Year instead of MDY, as the rest of the dates were. The creation and dissolution of this entity was not exactly precise, but I used the best dates available in Azerbaijan People's Government to allow correct sorting. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2017[edit]

add new catalonian republic (talk) 05:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBriTalk 13:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Catalan Republic[edit]

Can someone give a credible source on for how long Spain lost control of Catalonia in 2017? As far as I know it was exactly 0 hours 0 minutes and 0 seconds. Entry should be removed. A purposefully anonymous vote/ declaration by a group of MPs with no formal declaration of independence and simply ignored by all regional and national institutions and security forces is not a "state". It was not short lived, it simply never happened. The Spanish flag wasn't even taken down from the regional parliament. Either provide a valid source/argument or remove. Sonrisas1 (talk) 18:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

If so, the the Catalan Republic/State entries for 1931 and 1934 should be removed too. I've no issue for either keeping them or removing them, but either we remove them all or we keep them all, as "effective control" circumstances were similar in all three cases. Probably this also applies to the 1931 Galician Republic. Impru20 (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on the 1934 events but they seem more like a short lived state. There was a military confrontation of sorts and a final rendition implying control at some stage. Sonrisas1 (talk) 19:44, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
A "military confrontation" is not a requisite for being a state. Rather, having effective control over the territory is, which is not clear on the 1934 case either (and this still leave us question about Catalonia 1931 and Galicia 1931). Impru20 (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

This establishes why the entire list is flawed. It doesn't cite sources for the "lifetime" of the states, it just cites sources on events that happened, and draws its own, WP:OR conclusions on how "short-lived" the state was. Please clean this up to include only entries where the actual lifetime can be referenced to credible sources. A state is not necessarily "short-lived" because its government is driven into exile, and a state does not necessarily even "exist" if some random people declare independence. This has to be decided based on international law, by credible experts on international law. --dab (𒁳) 17:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Though I may go further and say that IMO we should really be starting by looking for lists that do similar things and see what they do. Because even if we have reliable sources for lengths, that does not imply that there are no other shorter-lived sovereign states. Kahastok talk 17:42, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. The Catalan Republic really does demonstrate the problem with the way this page operates, because it has thus far had no existence beyond the declaration of independence with no evidence that Spain ever actually lost effective control of the territory or any part of it. There was nothing for the Spanish state to undo, and even if they did undo something there is clearly the issue that this undoing was under Spanish law which the secessionists would not necessarily recognise as valid - so how could the state ever be said to have ended? FOARP (talk) 15:05, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
OK, I've been through and deleted the more dubious ones, but there's more to do, as Kahastok says. FOARP (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Ploiesti recognition?[edit]

The Republic of Ploiesti entry is colored as if to say that it received wide recognition, but a cursory google hasn't turned up for me any indication that that was the case. Besides, as a very short-lived revolt, international recognition seems unlikely. Can anyone confirm whether the Republic of Ploiesti was internationally recognized? --Jtle515 (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

There's a big problem, generally, with this page including unsourced information. For example, in many cases there is no actual source for how long each "country" existed, or event hat they were actually sovereign states in any real sense. I've gone through and removed some of the worst offenders but more work needs to be done. FOARP (talk) 08:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Page issues[edit]

1) As pointed out by Kahastok, this page in many cases lacks supporting references for the supposed period of existence of the state concerned. In many cases states have been added with the editor basically deciding themselves how long the state existed based on their own interpretation of the course of events. The repeated adding of the various Catalan Republics is an example of this. This is a difficult problem to address.

2) Many states have been added that were not actually independent but were instead autonomous entities within a larger state. The adding of Western Bosnia and Iranian Azerbaijan are examples of this. I've been through and deleted all the examples of this that I could find.

3) The supposed level of recognition for each state is often unsourced. For example, was Somaliland really widely recognised even though it only existed for five days? I've been going through trying to correct these. FOARP (talk) 13:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Russian Democratic Federative Republic[edit]

What happened to the Russian Democratic Federative Republic? Why is it not here? ( (talk) 23:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC))

Because there is no source provided for it length of existence. See discussion above about the lack of supporting references for the overwhelming majority of these states and their claimed periods of existence. Even at the linked article the date given for the Constituent Assembly elections is 25 November 1917 - two months before the disestablishment of the state and no reference is provided for the idea that it existed only 6 hours. Indeed the linked article describes a final draft of the constitution as being "adopted in Paris on 20 January 1920" so it appears to have continued to have existed at least in exile in some form. Furthermore the end is stated as being the time of the dissolution of the Russian Constituent Assembly - but this was the end of the Constituent Assembly, not the Russian Democratic Federative Republic per se, and even then there was still the Samara Committee. If you wish to include this state please provide a reliable source stating that it existed for that long and not longer. FOARP (talk) 13:35, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
You think Russian Democratic Federative Republic is non-notable on this list? Trong Browne (talk) 06:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I think it lacks a source for the claimed length of existence. For example, the page dealing with it describes it as still existing in 1920 FOARP (talk) 08:37, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2017[edit] (talk) 20:19, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Not done: Empty Request Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Missing countries[edit]

Those are few, I am able to think about: People's State of Bavaria, Bavarian Soviet Republic, Irish Republic (1798), United States of Indonesia, Republic of the North Solomons, East Timor of 1975-76, Western Sahara of 1975-76 (disputable), Republic of Ilirida (disputable), Republic of Mountainous Armenia, Kokand Autonomy (wiki page unfortunately does not exists, transfers to undated periods of Basmachi Rebellion but undisputable) First East Turkestan Republic, -- (talk) 05:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Please find sources for each one of those, sources that describe how long they existed for, and stating that a sovereign state was formed, before adding them. The problem with most of the listings that have been removed is that there was no source stating any of this supporting their listing. It is not enough, for example, to point at a rebellion and say "a state was created when the rebellion began and ended when the rebellion was put down" without anything actually saying that a state was created and when it actually happened. States often continue to exist in exile, for example, after the suppression of the rebellion that created them. In other cases, there is no indication that any state was actually created, or the date of the ending of the state has been inferred by an editor. Additionally not every state that is declared is an independent/sovereign state - some are just autonomous ones. Looking at the first few in list you give here I see the following problems:
-People's State of Bavaria: was this a sovereign state or just an autonomous one within Germany? No reference is provided in the article showing how long it actually existed. The article describes it as an "attempt" at creating a state so did it ever effectively exist?
-Bavarian Soviet Republic: same as above.
-Irish Republic (1798): The only source here is the declaration, which does not actually even declare a republic of Ireland. This is a list of sovereign states, but there is no evidence that this republic was a sovereign state - in fact it is described as a puppet of France. The date when it ended is also not clearly identified.
Some of the others look OK, though I can't see the supporting references on their pages. (talk) 12:46, 27 March 2018 (UTC)