Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience

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Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience

The Arbitration Committee has issued several principles which may be helpful to editors of this and other articles when dealing with subjects and categories related to "pseudoscience".

Four groups
Frequently asked questions (FAQ)

Are references really needed here?[edit]

Almost all of the topics listed here have a wiki page where evidence for that topic being pseudoscience is discussed and references are given in support of that. It seems a waste of time and effort to relist those same references here. IT seems to me that all that is needed is a quick description of the topic following the link to the page. If the wiki page says it is pseudoscience, then it gets listed here. Any arguments over if it is pseudoscience is waged on that page and not here. This article is huge because it has so many unnecessary references that are basically duplicates of what is found on the wiki pages. I propose that if a topic already has a wikipage that all references be removed here. That would also make this page easier to handle and edit. --OtisDixon (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Unless there is objection here soon, I'll edit the document to remove citations for the reason given. --OtisDixon (talk) 07:19, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
I reverted your removals because of WP:V which demands inline citations. Binksternet (talk) 02:25, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree, because references are very important in controversial articles, since they provide a verifiabile source for the "debunking". Though this article is big, it's a useful "ONE STOP" place to find pseudoscience bunk. I watch this article as a "reader" to stay up to date on new "bunk". Everyone keep up the great work! • SbmeirowTalk • 05:06, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Reverted it back to the non-referenced version per WP:BRD, this cleanup has been noted in talk and ongoing for quite a while now without objection. List does meet WP:V, references are at the parent articles. Per: WP:LISTVERIFY "obviously appropriate material.... will not be supported by any type of reference". This list has a very narrow WP:LISTCRITERIA:

  • Entries have an article
  • Those articles must have reliably sourced material that the topic is "characterized as pseudoscience" or equivalently controversial (WP:V established at the parent article)

Any member of this list must be "obviously appropriate" for this list due to the nature of the established list criteria. Any that are not "obviously appropriate" should be removed from this list. Asking for reference at this list encourages WP:CONTENTFORK, making a case here that is not made in the parent article. The experts on whether these topics are in some form "pseudoscience" are the editors who work on the parent articles. Entries here should be short and sweet. Extensive coverage, addition of further wording/references, and disputes in relation to whether these are, in some form, a pseudoscience should be carried out at the parent articles, not here. Extensive wording with multiple citations and back to back WP:REFBLOAT is argumentative, this is not the article for an argument.... it should (again) be taken to the parent article. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:47, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Given the history of this article and the many, related disputes on topics in this article, references are almost certainly necessity.
If someone wants to change the inclusion criteria here (or maybe we're just clarifying it?), then it will require a strong basis in policy (as opposed to guidelines), given that multiple ArbCom decisions are relevant here. --Ronz (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Because of the nature of pseudoscience, I don't understand how we can even consider "obviously appropriate" as a criteria. --Ronz (talk) 16:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Whether something is a pseudoscience is not the discussion that takes place at this article (with or without sources). The only criteria for this list is "does it have an article, does the article discuss whether its a pseudoscience". Any article that meets that is "obviously appropriate" for this list. "obviously appropriate" is for things that are obviously appropriate in a list e.g. Apple belongs in the List of fruits, articles matching the two given requirements belong in this list. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Citing sources "Stand-alone lists are subject to Wikipedia's content policies and guidelines for articles, including verifiability and citing sources. This means statements should be sourced where they appear". Doug Weller talk 19:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
@Fountains of Bryn Mawr:Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't clear what you meant. I don't think that "obviously appropriate" as used in the linked guideline applies. I do think that the other criteria you give is fairly accurate.
does the article discuss whether its a pseudoscience. I'd like a stronger criteria than this. "Discussion" isn't enough. Characterized as pseudoscience, meeting WP:FRINGE, is what we're after.
Given the huge problems we've had establishing and enforcing FRINGE, we need sources for anything that might be controversial or disputed. --Ronz (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm with Doug Weller and Ronz on this: we must put the citations inline where they can be found to support the assertions. The problem of watching for POVFORK is not solved by having no references on this page. The inclusion criteria cannot overrule the simple WP:V requirement. LISTVERIFY doesn't support the removal of citations here. We must restore the cites. Binksternet (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
The problem is adding references to this list does not solve POVFORK either. If anything is controversial or disputed, that wording and those source go at that article. This list only reports the topic is controversial or disputed - one sentence and maybe one ref should be enough for that.... if not.... something is wrong somewhere. Its not our job on this list to try to prove something one way or another with multiple sources, that should have already been proven at the article.
A stronger criteria than just "discuss" is a good idea, but strongly proving something is considered a pseudoscience or meets WP:FRINGE means (once the article is properly sourced to pass that test) it is even more "obviously appropriate" for this list, really requiring no sources here. The current standard of "inserting an item with REFBLOAT trying to prove something" is the worse way to go about this, it inserts POVFORKs or duplicates the target article or it brings an argument away from where the experts are (or all three at once). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:03, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
If this was simply a list of links to other pages, I would be in favor of no references. It is written as an overview and calling this a list is a misnomer. The page contains a great deal of text and I expect there will be reliable references supporting the text, as in any other written article. There is no such policy saying the reference is not required because it exists elsewhere in Wikipedia. Dougmcdonell (talk) 22:59, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2016[edit]

Change Energy topic Hydrino from:

Hydrinos – are a supposed state of the hydrogen atom that, according to proponent Randell Mills of Brilliant Light Power, Inc., are of lower energy than ground state and thus a source of free energy.

   Free energy – particular class of perpetual motion which purports to create energy (violating the first law of thermodynamics) or extract useful work from equilibrium systems (violating the second law of thermodynamics). This is in contrast to proposals made most notably by Harold Puthoff a real energy which in quantum mechanics is thought not to be available to do work.
   Water-fueled cars – an instance of perpetual motion machines. Such devices are claimed to use water as fuel or produce fuel from water on board with no other energy input.


Hydrinos – are a supposed state of the hydrogen atom that, according to proponent Randell Mills of Brilliant Light Power, Inc., are of lower energy than ground state.

I can find no reference for the claim of "and thus a source of free energy".

The association of the Energy topic "Free energy" as a nested topic under Hydrinos is also something which I cannot find a reference source for. "Free energy" should stand alone as its own Energy topic or be eliminated as it has no referenced relation to the Hydrino topic.

The association of the Energy topic "Water-fueled cars" as a nested topic under Hydrinos is also something which I cannot find a reference source for. "Water-fueled cars" should stand alone as its own Energy topic or be eliminated as it has no referenced relation to the Hydrino topic.

Zaleski59 (talk) 17:45, 6 December 2016 (UTC)zaleski59 Zaleski59 (talk) 17:45, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

yellow tickY Partly done--The statement that hydrinos are a free source of energy is definitely correct.I am reordering the free-energy and hydrino nesting.There are definitely some problems with it.Aru@baska❯❯❯ Vanguard 15:29, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Aruneek - Thank you for looking at the nesting of topics. Can you defend your position "The statement that hydrinos are a free source of energy is definitely correct." with a reference or some other rationale. It is inconsistent with what precedes it, "Hydrinos – are a supposed state of the hydrogen atom that, according to proponent Randell Mills of Brilliant Light Power, Inc., are of lower energy than ground state". There is no claim of free energy, in fact the opposite is true, the energy is extracted from a ground state hydrogen atom by catalyzing it to a fractional state (reciprocal of an excited state). The energy available from such transitions is finite and quantifiable. Look forward to your response. Zaleski59 (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done--I concede to your arguments.Will be incorporating the changes.Thanks!Light❯❯❯ Saber 16:51, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Expanding Earth[edit]

Need to add this theory next to hollow Earth and flat Earth Andrew Mc Andrew (talk) 17:50, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Formatting of top section[edit]

Please format the introduction into paragraphs. I suggest dividing the text before and after the "Criticisms of..." sentence. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalgard (talkcontribs) 22:05, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, i do not know format etc. Suggest topic on medicine. Ancient wisdom on medicines, power of light, sound, cathedrals, waves, love, water, effect on human body, healing. natural molecules, ancient wisdom, treatment of illness with as little as one molecule. India, China, ancient knowledge. Cooling, heating effects. Balance. Nutrition. Hospital foods :). processed. genetics, abnormalities, fact of humans, life, adapt to surrounds. epidemic, of illnesses, from toxic surrounds. non genetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Innate intelligence --> Energy medicine?[edit]

Innate intelligence is not an article and the entry is described as chiropractic medicine. The linked term following it, putative energy, is a pipe to Energy medicine, does not discus chiropractic medicine, and does not explain "Innate intelligence". We mean Energy medicine here? .... leaves me clueless for one. Needs a total rewrite and maybe should be about Energy medicine. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. wave lengths, vibrations, energy. Its is Innate. This is known. It is well documented, and known in the past. Egypt, pyramids. Could be linked to many things, ancient civilizations, beliefs, history and cultures.

Topic on Neuroplasticity, in relation to brain dis orders, healing. This is more modern.

Genetic dis order?, Causes of toxins in our environment? In relation too.

"Mental illness", treatment of the brain as an organ. In, relation too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:32, 5 February 2017 (UTC) Brain, function. exercise, stimulation. Sense is, touch, eyes, ears, nose, tongue. exercise of mind, to learn, teach, heal. Is in relation to, feel, light, sound, smell, taste. Love.

The, pages, chiropractic medicine, and energy healing page, is a bit.. not really where i was going. More, knowledge of the past. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 23:57, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Google "Human Seven Sense"

Humans Really Have Seven Senses (Don't Forget Proprioception and Vestibular Sensation) The way we understand the world is mediated by our five senses: touch, taste, sound, smell, and sight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:46, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

this molecule, Ephedrine. electric. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:51, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Topic, Climate. Stop. Nature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:47, 10 February 2017 (UTC)