Talk:Liturgy of St Cyril

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Title[edit]

I've used the title "Liturgy of St Cyril" in place of "Liturgy of Saint Cyril" for uniformity to the articles Liturgy of St James, Liturgy of St Tikhon, but we have Liturgy of Saint Basil. Your ideas?A ntv (talk) 21:01, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I think 'Liturgy of Saint Mark' should be the main title, not a redirection.2.80.252.58 (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I myself am of the opinion that the Liturgy of St. Mark deserves a separate article; while the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril is very similar to the Koine Greek liturgy of the Alexandrian church on which it was based, the two are different, and the modern Byzantine Rite Liturgy of St. Mark is very different from the contemporary Coptic liturgy; the two share a common heritage, but have developed differently. In addition, having the two articles be separate would underscore the point that the Liturgy of St. Cyril is a translation of that of St. Mark, that is historically very important, because Cyril was the first Alexandrian Pope to introduce a liturgy in the Coptic vernacular of the Egyptian people, and this history deserves mention and emphasis, whereas the separate history of its Byzantine Rite counterpart should be emphasized in its own article. Wgw2024 (talk) 11:50, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The article is named Liturgy of Saint Cyril and not liturgy of Saint Mark because the Wiki policy WP:COMMONNAME which requires the more common name is used (and there are no doubt that millions of Copts use today Liturgy of Saint Cyril). The Coptic Greek Liturgy of St Mark and the Coptic Liturgy of St Gregory are mainly the same thing, with less changes than between (for example) the 1 millennium Greek Liturgy of St Crysostom and the today Russian Liturgy with the same name.
This article just has a brief remind about today Greek-Bizantine Liturgy of St Mark (due to the same origin), and I have no objection if a new article is wholly dedicated to such liturgy (a last century re-discovery of archelogic liturgies, used a couple of times a year in an extremly limited chappels): simply I cant find enough material to have something longer than 10 lines. In such a case we could have an article named "Liturgy of Saint Mark (Bizantine Rite)" and one named "Liturgy of Saint Mark (Coptic Rite)" with redirect to this article. A ntv (talk) 09:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem with that, a nty, is that its not quite accurate. I have the rubrics for the St. Mark and St. Cyril liturgies, and I can assure you the most recent revision of the St. Mark liturgy, from the 1890s, is very different from the present Coptic liturgy. I say this as a Syriac Orthodox who loves the Coptic church and is very upset about the persecution of Copts (and indeed of Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria Christians). Pursuant to this, within the next few weeks, I'm going to be expanding the St. Mark section and moving it to a standalone article, with a link to this one; I will also be expanding this article with a more detailed discussion of the Coptic use of this liturgy, specifically the structure, and the two divergent forms of it used on Christmas Eve and in Lent. In its present revision, the Greek St. Mark liturgy is not really noticeably different from the St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom liturgies of the late 19th century, with the same standard litanies, diptychs and so on, whereas the St. Cyril liturgy has substantially different rubrics and shares more content with the Coptic version of St. Basil, which is in turn quite different from the Greek. If the Coptic St. Basil liturgy had a different name, I would give it a different article too, but having a disambiguation page for the two variants would be a bit too painful. This by the way, is based purely on the content of the liturgy, and not on the vastly different music and other practices (like the amiable Coptic tradition of passing behind the iconostasis for communion). I should also stress by the way, that having read both liturgical texts, if I had not elsewhere read that the St. Cyril liturgy was derived from the ancient St. Mark liturgy, I would not even know they were related; the two have been separate for around sixteen centuries, and it shows. Its almost like comparing the modern Pauline Mass with the archaic Sarum Rite. For now, with the article relatively lacking in content, having one article makes sense, but when I add the additional content within the near future (or if someone else beats me to it), it will make more sense to separate them. Wgw2024 (talk) 02:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)