Talk:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former featured article Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 17, 2006.
This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Resolving Undue Weight template[edit]

Continuing from the previous Article too long? -discussion: There's been an Undue Weight -template in the article since May 2015. Perhaps we should finally do something about it. I'm considering moving the most bloated chapters Program cost overruns and delays and Concerns over performance and safety into one sub-article. Only some of their content would be left and the rest would be placed into new main article (like Joint Strike Fighter program for chapter JSF program requirements and selection). Any opinions regarding this? --Ras (talk) 20:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I think this has to be approached carefully. The most unique thing about this aircraft has been it development problems and this shouldn't be moved or cut without careful consideration. - Ahunt (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the OP, good idea to move into one sub-article, giving consideration to Ahunt's concerns. Twobells (talk) 12:07, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Editor Ahunt is right. The most significant thing about this jet - at least until there is an eventful history after roll-out - has been the development problems. So, an only half tongue-in-cheek suggestion: Consider user typing "F-35" leading to an article titled "The F-35 Development Program" ("or The F-35 Project") where the user can find the history of the program [see my comment below], its problems, cost overruns, government response, etc. and then below the title of that article provide a disambiguation link [is there a term for those] to an article about the plane itself. In the article about the plane, have a brief summary of the development problems that then links to the Development Program. What is it most Wikipedia users will want to know if they are looking up "F-35/F35"? Also, this should be a cautionary tale for any future citizens who will be contemplating the development of a sixth generation aircraft. Ileanadu (talk) 13:33, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
"What is it most Wikipedia users will want to know if they are looking up "F-35/F35?" you ask? If your answer to that question is "how awful it is" then I think your perspective has been distorted severely. Like with any other article, most wiki users will want a generalized overview of the topic, not a point-by-point biased, vitriolic, onerously long, almost unreadable fifty thousand words of outdated garbage about how this-and-that system that has been functioning as intended since 2011 malfunctioned way back when. 90% of that nonsense should be OUTRIGHT DELETED as no longer relevant. No other aviation article, including ones about programs whose problems ultimately led them to be cancelled, has such a colossal pile of nit-picked negativity associated with it. Moving it all to its own article is a far more than reasonable compromise with the many editors who have spent much of the past decade working to try to justify their own inexplicable hate for this program. Torriende (talk) 13:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Cost overruns[edit]

The recently added material on cost overruns is sourced to Bloomberg Businessweek which doesn't look like "spam" to me. Can we discuss these additions and the best place to put them? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

First of all the same total cost text does not belong in 4-5 places in the article. I cut this down be in the Cost overrun section and the Lead. There is far too much detail and redundancy in sections of this article, i.e. WP:NOT#NEWSREPORTS. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Your edit seems quite fair and reasonable to me. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
The cited Bloomberg article states "With the program about seven years behind schedule, the Pentagon estimates it will spend $379 billion over 40 years to develop and acquire more than 2,440 of the warplanes. Adjusting for inflation, that’s a 38 percent increase from the initial 2001 estimate. Add more than $600 billion for upkeep, and the total price tag approaches $1 trillion." -- Yet, the poster said "Bloomberg Businessweek reported on 10 April 2017 that the total procurement expenditures for the F-35 program was approaching $1 trillion." -- Well, total "procurement" is not the same as "procurement" and "upkeep". So, the added text does not reflect what the article conveys. Also, I already posted the budget totals for the program, which are "US$1.508 trillion (through 2070 in then-year dollars), US$55.1B for RDT&E, $319.1B for procurement, $4.8B for MILCON, $1123.8B for operations & sustainment (2015 estimate)" --Obivader (talk) 05:47, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Are you simply saying that "total price tag" is not the same as "total procurement expenditures"? I'd say the word "approaching" may be a mis misleading if we're talking about total estimated costs through until 2070. But when does Bloomberg's 40 years begin and end? Also "trillion" is a nice big round number, but it's still unclear how many billion that is more then the Bloomberg sum. Is is £21 billion more? Bloomberg doesn't say. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Procurement cost means the cost to acquire the planes. The cost to procure all 2443 F-35s (with production going out to 2038), is $319.1 billion. That is in "then-year" dollars. If you want to add the cost to develop and test the plane, that's another $55.1 billion (for a total of $374.2 billion). The big cost is "operations and sustainment", at just over $1.1 trillion. This is the cost to fly and maintain the plane (fuel, maintenance, spare parts, upgrades, weapons expenditures, etc) until the last F-35 is retired in 2070. This is also in "then-year" dollars. The added text in the wikipedia article say "procurement" is adding up to a trillion dollars, which is simply not true. The Bloomberg article itself is closer to being accurate, in that it specifies most of the cost is "upkeep". However, the budget information I provided in a prior revision is more detailed and accurate. In short, the Bloomberg article provides less detailed and less accurate information than was already presented in the wikipedia page, and the revision by the poster butchered the article further, changing what the article actually said. I believe the revisions should be removed completely. Obivader (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
My, my. And who exactly predicts the cost of "operations"? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
The Joint Program Office (JPO). [1] Obivader (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for that source, which looks a tad more reliable than Bloomberg. A tricky cost estimate, though, one might say. I realise that governments need budgets. But someone might decide that the US "cannot be the policeman of the world" anymore? And they might then just change their mind, at the drop of a hat? I guess there are very high-powered committees that prevent such wild fluctuations. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:36, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, they are estimates, and there are many things that could affect these costs. The price of fuel, inflation, World War III, etc. However, without factoring in these costs, you don't get anywhere near the trillion dollars mentioned in the revision to this page. The Bloomberg mention should be removed, as a more detailed estimate is already present. Obivader (talk) 08:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Hmm. It's not straightforward, is it. Let's see what others think. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:57, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Supporting both Martinevans comments and Fnlayson template comment that some of the sections, particularly on Budget and cost related topics are becoming over-developed in this large article. Possibly it makes sense to consider creating a new page for the Budget and cost issues of the program and separating them out as a separate article. ManKnowsInfinity (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Sounds a good idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
It is not really encyclopedic to have point by point event content like this article has on costs and other issues. The Costs text needs to be written in summary manner either here or in a separate article. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I again have to object to the "Bloomberg" edit. The edit misrepresents what the cited article stated. That alone is cause for at least a major rewording. However, since a much more detailed budget estimate is already present, the edit is redundant and should be removed. I am removing it now. Obivader (talk) 00:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Agreed, it shouldn't be in the article else atleast include the fact it is refering to 2070 then-year dollars. — IVORK Discuss 00:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Obivader; Your edit was reverted by Martinevans with whom I have stated my support. Establish consensus on the Talk page here prior to edits. ManKnowsInfinity (talk) 16:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

References

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 27 external links on Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:54, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

First Combat[edit]

The F-35 might have had its first combat... Does anyone have access to the original Georges Malbrunot article in Le Figaro?

see: http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/03/07/have-israels-new-f-35s-seen-combat/ & https://sofrep.com/80147/israels-f-35s-may-already-flown-combat-mission-russian-air-defenses-syria/ (I linked the second one as well as it includes a possibly quotable bit about Israel now having 5 F-35s)

(note: I won't be watching this page but will check back in) Gecko G (talk) 15:00, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

It would seem to be sourced well enough for a brief section outlining the claims from French intelligence. Alleged first combat use or similar for a title? Irondome (talk) 16:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:22, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

RAF Plans To Purchase 80 F-35A's[edit]

I have updated the F-35A and F-35B sections accordingly [1], regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.152.116 (talk) 08:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted your changes, as it is just a plan at this point. - BilCat (talk)
That action seems unusual, most of the 'operators' section is from 'planned' proposals. I cannot see any reason not to undue your revert and then edit as the order firms up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.152.116 (talk) 07:01, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
It's just how it's always been done. (I'm sure a more experienced editor can track down the actual policy on it). Information isn't added to articles unless it is confirmed happening i.e. the contract has been signed.
Just because the RAF wants and Minister of Defence wants something doesn't guarantee it will happen / there is a budget to do so. The same happens for upcoming movies & series' / other general rumors / unfinalised actions. Planned operators means exactly that, not proposed operators i.e. it's all signed off and just awaiting delivery for them to become "Operators" — IVORK Discuss 07:17, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

References