Talk:Lorentz ether theory

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

File:Poincare.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Poincare.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 5 May 2012
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Poincare.jpg)

This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 07:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Later Activity - Add statement regarding Sine-Gordon equation and quasi relativistic effects in crystals[edit]

I would like to add the following in the chapter Later Activity (My changes where undone by DVdm, I therefore start now a new section on this talk page following WP:BRD):

Helmut Günther also developed a Lorentzian model of an universal ether in 1996. This is based on the fact that dislocations in crystal structures exhibit quasi-relativistic effects such as longitudinal contraction and time dilation. This is because the Sine-Gordon equation on which these phenomena is based is Lorentz-invariant.

  • Günther, Helmut (2000), Elementary Theory of Relativity: Lattice - Ether - Symmetry, Aachen: Shaker Verlag, ISBN 978-3-8265-7104-6 

That simple mechanical models can exhibit relativistic effects is not yet clearly stated in this article. There is also a German article that describes how to build a mechanical sine-gordon-chain (Dietrich, M. u. H.-J. Patt: "Wellenmaschine zur Demonstration und Messung harmonischer und anharmonischer Wellenphänomene (Solitonen)" Fig. 12 in the later (German) paper shows two solitons, the left one is lorentz contracted. I hesitated to cite this document here as it is in German, but I did also not yet find an English paper. Helmut Günther explains in chapter 10 of the above cited book, how a breather exhibits time dilation. Apart from this he discusses the whole relativity theory with a Lorentzian approach. All these authors appear to be motivated by pedagogical reasons, as the Lorentzian approach is assumed to be easier to be understood by at least some students (You may see also for a discussion of how to teach relativistic). --Malanoqa (talk) 19:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Are there any solid wp:secondary sources that refer to Günther, to establish notability of this? Without such it seems pretty wp:UNDUE and wp:FRINGE. - DVdm (talk) 21:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi DVdm, thanks for "defending" the quality of this article. I saw that you reverted at least two times in the past edits where sources where added to this article. In both cases, I agree with your decision.
I will do my very best to to answer your question. Helmut Günther published mostly in German language.I assume that the Shaker Verlag that published the English translation of a book from 1996 would publish near to anything that appears scientific, so a text published there is not by itself a reliable source. The original text is in German and was published in 1996 by Springer Fachmedien Wiesbaden GmbH a part of Springer ( Springer is a major publisher of scientific books and journals and books published there should qualify as reliable source. The most recent book by Helmut Günther about an at least related topic is from 2012 and also published by Springer (, but here I do not know in detail what is in the book.
So it appears to me, that it is better when I use the German text as reference. It is published by Springer, so I regard it as reliable source. And it will be much easier to find more reliable sources to support this if needed. But this reliable sources will then probably be also in German language.
The reason that many texts are in German is probably that a main motivation for all this authors is their pedagogical work. And here teaching and writing is mostly in German language.
The work by Helmut Günther is not original research. That certain physical systems (In Galilean space) can be described in the continuum approximation by the Sine-Gordon-equation is well known (under experts). The same is true for the Lorentz-invariance of the solutions of the Sine-Gordon-equations (although not yet written in the Wikipedia article about this equation). So a text book to teach relativity theory using this knowledge can be written. And this is what Helmut Günther did. --Malanoqa (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Springer can be reliable, but it's still merely a wp:primary source. Compare this with the paragraph on John Stewart Bell, which is also sourced with a PS, but we know that many SC could be found, and Bell has an article here, which makes it relevant and wp:DUE. At least one reliable wp:secondary source might establish sufficient relevance to mention Günther here. What do other contributors think? - DVdm (talk) 08:10, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
I search currently for more and better sources --Malanoqa (talk) 08:58, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
The German book by H. Günther from 1996 fullfills in my understanding the criteria of a reliable secondary source wp:secondary source as it is stated in this policy "... Secondary sources are not necessarily independent or third-party sources ...". Primary sources are for instance "Günther, H. (1988), On Lorentz Symmetries in Solids. phys. stat. sol. (b), 149: 101–109. doi:10.1002/pssb.2221490110" and "Günther, H. (1994), The Crystalline Structure as a Basis for a Reversed Access to the Special Theory of Relativity. phys. stat. sol. (b), 185: 335–340. doi:10.1002/pssb.2221850203" --Malanoqa (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps, but let's get other contributors' opinions on this first, in order to establish some kind of wp:consensus to make the change. - DVdm (talk) 20:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Are they relativistic (SR) effects, or LET effects? Or is there a difference? Presumably any SR effect could be described as an LET effect, so there would be nothing notable about that. If for some reason LET works in this research but SR does not, then that would be interesting, but it would have to be explained. Roger (talk) 05:18, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, explained, and in turn, sourced as well. - DVdm (talk) 08:44, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
The new aspect is, that certain kinds of solitons (for instance the solutions of the Sine-Gordon-Equations) exhibit relativistic effects. So there are model systems for the classical Lorentz ether. I regard this as an important information that should be mentioned in this article. I could try to write a new chapter "Physical models for a Lorentz ether"--Malanoqa (talk) 18:19, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Without secondary sources, that would be wp:synthesis and wp:original research. - DVdm (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
I noted this secondary sources already, but they are in German languange and in books that are not freely available. So it is difficult to achieve wp:CON --Malanoqa (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)