- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: All moved as requested, unopposed Mike Cline (talk) 15:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
– The article titles of ten members of the Medici family of Florence are unsatisfactory. These cases unnecessarily use numerical birth & death dates in the title to disambiguate, rather than their commmon names. Use of dates makes linking harder (and subject to change, as dates are often questionable and corrected, leading to multiple redirects e.g. Giovanni de' Medici (1567–1621) was previously Giovanni de' Medici (1563–1621)). The proposed changes also remove the unusual use of ordering ("II") for Medici family members who do not have titles nor commonly referred to as such (the Medici Grand Dukes of Tuscany are numbered, but not the non-ruling family members). There are conventional ways of disambiguating members of the Medici family that use neither dates nor numbers. The ten changes proposed above incorporate the usual naming conventions. I decided to propose them as a multi-change, rather than individually. A fuller analysis of each of the proposed name changes is given on the talk page of the first, Lorenzo de' Medici (1463–1503) Walrasiad (talk) 10:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
FURTHER ANALYSIS For those not in the know, the Medici family were originally from Florence. There were two branches - the senior Medici branch (descended from Cosimo de' Medici) and a junior branch, known as the Popolani (descended from Lorenzo the Elder). In the 15th C., the main branch dominated politics (but did not formally rule) in Florence. In the 16th C., the Popolano branch took over, and eventually (1531) took up the formal title of Grand Duke of Tuscany. For a quick summary of the family, see the Medici family tree. Those curious about how they are treated in Italian original, can click through the tree at the Italian wikipedia
For most historians, and especially art historians, the main branch is the most important, since they presided over the 15th Renaissance and sponsored all the big name artists of the day (Donatello, Botticelli, Michelangelo, etc.). Problem is the Medici repeat the same names a lot: esp. Lorenzo, Giovanni, Piero, Giuliano. As a result, historians have come up with conventions on how to differentiate between them, typically
- (1) by patronym (e.g. "Lorenzo di Cosimo", meaning, Lorenzo the son of Cosimo), or
- (2) by nickname (e.g. "Lorenzo the Elder") or,
- (3) by title (if they have one, e.g. "Lorenzo, Duke of Urbino").
For the reasons mentioned above, dates should not be used in article titles. Neither should number ordering (ordinals are OK for Grand Dukes of Tuscany, but not for the non-ruling members of the family). The conventional methods of disambiguation (patronym, nickname, etc.) worked out and commonly used by historians for the Medici family should be used, and that has been the guid in the changes I have proposed. Let me go through them in turn:
LORENZO. Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici, nicknamed 'il Magnifico', is sufficiently famous to dominate the Lorenzo de' Medici name (as he does here in Wiki). But there are common conventions for the other "Lorenzos". So I propose:
- Change #2 Lorenzo II de' Medici, Duke of Urbino has a number "II". I don't know why this is there. Possibly to differentiate him from the Magnifico in the Medici line? Unfortunately, that "II" number is not commonly used. Moreover, it confusingly suggests that he is the second Duke of Urbino called Lorenzo, when he is,in fact, the first. The number shouldn't be there. His article title should be simply Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino, which is how is commonly referred to.
GIOVANNI The next set of changes (#3 through #5) involve the name "Giovanni de' Medici". Unfortunately, there are a lot of Giovannis. Currently, Giovanni de' Medici is a disambiguation page.
- Change #5: Giovanni de' Medici (1567–1621) is rarely, if ever, called plain "Giovanni de' Medici". He was and is customarily known and referred to as Don Giovanni de' Medici (as already found on the disambiguation page). I know Wiki style guides asks us to avoid titular prefixes ("Don"), but I think this case should be an exception. "Don Giovanni" is how he is normally known, and normally disambiguated from the others.
If you're curious, the three remaining Giovannis are already differentiated (I think these cases are fine):
CARLO There are only two Carlos, and both should be changed in the following simple, straightforward manner to avoid dates:
GIULIANO There are two Giulianos that used dates in the titles that should be changed:
- Change #8 Giuliano de' Medici (1453–1478) has dates. This should be changed to plain Giuliano de' Medici, per dominant usage. Giuliano was the brother of Lorenzo the Magnificent, his co-ruler and almost equally famous. He is easily the dominant Giuliano.
I think all ten changes should be undertaken. That should help improve the article titles, make them stable and easier to link to. If commenting, please refer to which Change # you are referring to.Walrasiad (talk) 10:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.