Talk:Princess Louise Marie Thérèse of Artois

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are there no paintings of the Princess, i mean she was both a Princess of France and the Duchess of Parma.-Croix 129 —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

France? Or Artois?[edit]

I've been told that this princess was "of Artois", not "of France". Charles 18:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, she was "d'Artois". The title of the article should be Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois, without the "Princess" title. In French books written by historians such as Évelyne Lever, she is mentioned as Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois, fille du duc et de la duchesse de Berry. Frania W. (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't she have become "de France" after her grandfather became King? john k (talk) 22:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so because the children of the king were "de France" and of the grandchildren of the king: only the children of the Dauphin, not the grandchildren by younger siblings of the Dauphin: those bore the name of their father's title (I hope my English is not going to get garbled on this one!!!).

Let's go up to Louis XIII's children who are both *de France*, also *de Bourbon* because that was Henry IV's surname, but as of Louis XIV the direct family of the King of France officially bears the surname of *de France* while member of the non-reigning branches bear the surname *de Bourbon* - as do the legitimised bastards of the king. :

  • Louis Dieudonné de France (future Louis XIV)
  • Philippe de France, duc d’Orléans (title his brother gives him after the death of their uncle Gaston de France, duc d’Orléans)

Louis XIV's children are surnamed *de France*, and so on down the direct line until the last Bourbon king of France. The children of his brother Philippe are given the surname of the title of their father, *d’Orléans*, and from then on there will never be a *d'Orléans* bearing the surname *de France* , even when Louis-Philippe d'Orléans becomes king (of the French).

Louis XIV has one son,

  • Louis de France, Dauphin de France, the "Grand Dauphin", (dies before his father L.XIV.)

Louis de France, Grand Dauphin has the following children:

  • Louis de France, duc de Bourgogne, the "Petit Dauphin", (dies before his grandfather L.XIV). As the oldest son of the "Grand Dauphin", he will become Dauphin de France upon the death of his father in 1711. His children, (great-grandchildren of Louis XIV), are *de France* because of the direct line king/dauphin/son of the dauphin/son of the son of the dauphin... One child, a son, survives him:
      • Louis de France, duc d'Anjou, (future Louis XV), great-grandson of Louis XIV. Born in 1710, he was given the title duc d'Anjou, which had been the title of his uncle Philippe who had become king of Spain in 1700. (See below)
  • Philippe de France, duc d'Anjou (future king Philip V of Spain). His children, if he has any, will not be *de France*, even if they are the king's grandchildren because not issued of eldest son, moreover, when Philippe becomes king of Spain he & his descendants are out of the line to the throne of France.
  • Charles de France, duc de Berry had three children (who did not bear the surname *de France*, but *de Berry*):
    • Louise de Berry
    • Charles de Berry, duc d'Alençon
    • Marie Louise Élisabeth de Berry

All are going to die before Louis XIV dies, except for the five-year old Louis, duc d'Anjou, who then becomes king Louis XV; and it starts all over again with Louis XV and his children & grandchildren.

Louis XV had nine children:

  • Marie Louise Élisabeth de France
  • Anne Henriette de France
  • Louis de France, Dauphin, dies in 1765 before his grandfather, thus leaving his eldest son as new Dauphin
  • Philippe de France, duc d'Anjou
  • Marie Adélaïde de France
  • Marie Louise Thérèse Victoire de France
  • Sophie Philippe Élisabeth de France
  • Marie Thérèse Félicité de France
  • Louise Marie de France

Louis de France, Dauphin, son of Louis XV dies in 1765 before his grandfather, thus leaving his eldest son as new Dauphin (not putting in list the children who did not survive childhood):

  • Louis Joseph Xavier de France, Dauphin, dies in 1761
  • Louis-Auguste de France, duc de Berry, (future Louis XVI), becomes new Dauphin upon the death of his brother. His children were *de France*.
  • Louis Stanislas Xavier de France, comte de Provence, (future Louis XVIII), his children would have been *de Provence*, but he had none.
  • Charles Philippe de France, comte d'Artois, (future Charles X), his children were *d'Artois*
  • Clotilde de France
  • Élisabeth de France

Louis XVI's children were:

  • Marie-Thérèse Charlotte de France
  • Louis-Joseph de France, Dauphin (died in 1789)
  • Louis-Charles de France, duc de Normandie, (future Louis XVII), Dauphin upon the death of his brother, died in 1795: no reign, no children.
  • Sophie Hélène Béatrice de France

Charles X's children (giving only the two sons as his two daughters died young) were not *de France* but *d'Artois* until...:

  • Louis-Antoine d'Artois, duc d'Angoulême, (future Louis XIX). When his father ascended the throne of France, he became Dauphin and *de France*, and at the time of his father's abdication, was king Louis XIX for a few minutes: no reign, no children. After his father's accession to the throne, his children would have been *de France*.
  • Charles-Ferdinand d'Artois, duc de Berry, was assassinated in 1820 before his father became king, so did not live long enough to become *de France* and he remained *d'Artois*, and so did his children; the exception being the particular case of his son, Henri, duc de Bordeaux, at the abdication of his grandfather Charles X.

Charles-Ferdinand d'Artois, duc de Berry had two children:

  • Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois, the personage of this article. Her surname was *d'Artois*, not *de Berry*. When her grandfather became king of France, she became a petite-fille de France, but, not being the daughter of the Dauphin, she could not have the surname *de France*, and remained *d'Artois*.
  • Henri Charles Ferdinand Marie Dieudonné d'Artois, duc de Bordeaux, (future Henri V), later comte de Chambord. He was king Henri V of France from 2 to 9 August 1830, so, logically, at that time he became *de France* and remained so for the legitimists who see him as king Henri V of France, even if he never actually reigned. His children would have been *de France*, but he had none.

Getting back to the lady of this saga: the title of her article should be:

  • Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois without the Princess, as it is not part of her name, or
  • Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza, or
  • Louise d'Artois, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza, since her used first name was Louise, *Marie Thérèse* could be removed from the title.

I apologise for this long explanation & also for any typos left behind...

Royalement vôtre! Frania W. (talk) 03:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Frania, that's very useful. I certainly agree that "Princess" should be removed. In terms of "Duchess of Parma," my general understanding is that we avoid including consort titles in article titles, except for currently living consorts. As far as her later names, in works on Italian history, she is normally referred to as "Luisa Maria," rather than simply "Luisa." As such, I think we should stick with the full name - i.e., your first option. john k (talk) 14:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
D'accord with the title you choose. The French refer to her simply as *Louise*, but this I shall not push since the subject of the discussion was her surname. However, in the lead, Louise should be italicised and then be the only first name used in the remaining of the article. Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 15:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure that French conventions should hold sway here, though. She was French, obviously, but she married into an Italian ruling family, and her most prominent role was in Italy, as regent of Parma for her son. If Italians call her "Luisa Maria," and, more importantly, if writings in English on Italian history call her that, that seems just as relevant as, if not more so than, what the French call her. Given that she was born in France, and that French name forms are generally more familiar in English than Italian forms, I think using the French forms is fine. But if she was "Louise" in France and "Louise Marie" (or Luisa Maria) in Italy, it doesn't make much sense to favor the French version. john k (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
John, whether *Louise*, *Luisa* or *Luisa Maria*, is not what concerns me. The reason of my stepping in earlier was because of your question "Wouldn't she have become "de France" after her grandfather became King?", which I tried to explain with my best English. Frania W. (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh, yes, very clear, and thanks again for explaining. I was just responding to your argument above that only Louise should be used in the article text. john k (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Princess Louise Marie Thérèse of Artois[edit]

  • Wouldn't that be the more correct English name considering how other Continental European royalty are styled in English? --Caponer (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)