Talk:Lower Peninsula of Michigan

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Michigan Regions[edit]

Who wrote this? Flint doesn't belong in the thumb, it belongs in the region called "Mid-Michigan". - Chris5369

I wouldn't really put Flint in mid-Michigan myself, it's too far east and south. Mackensen (talk) 13:12, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
That's what it says when I turn on the news, "Mid-Michigan's" Premier News Station. - Chris5369

I think it would be better to refer to the southeastern area as "Southeast Michigan" and not Metro Detroit. Not all of that area is really part of the metropolitan area. I don't think many people consider Monroe County, for instance, as being part of Metro Detroit. Funnyhat 07:48, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think I've made similar comments on Talk:Metro Detroit. olderwiser 12:11, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Although Flint's TV stations refer to it as being part of "Mid-Michigan," couldn't Flint possibly be considered part of Southeast Michigan? I certainly don't think it is part of the Thumb, nor do I think that Saginaw or Bay City are. To my knowledge, for example, Saginaw schools are not invited to the Thumb Tournament of Champions track meet. Not definitive, I realize, but nothing with regard to this is, and the perceived reality is reality in this circumstance.
From a Northern Michigan point of view, Flint is 'Downstate.' Not that this contributes anything to the debate... Also, from a NM point of view, Downstate consists of Mid-michigan(Mount Pleasant/Lansing), Kalamazoo/GR, and Metro Detroit. and the Thumb.MPS 8 July 2005 15:51 (UTC)
While a valid observation, MPS, I don't think that helps this particular debate because we're attempting to make differentiations between what you are saying a northern Michigander sees as "downstate." On the other hand, your comment is valuable (to me, at least) because it reaffirms what is truly Northern Michigan; too many of the people I know in Southeast Michigan consider anything north of Pontiac to be "up north," which to me seems incredibly parochial and arrogant.

As a native of Mount Pleasant, I'd say it's "Central Michigan." It doesn't feel the same way as northern Michigan (Grayling, Petoskey, etc), but it doesn't really fit with the more urban south (Lansing and Flint on down). As I see it, Flint belongs more to the south on account of its industrial and urban qualities. Mackensen (talk) 8 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Here, I made this:


Flint really doesn't fit with the Thumb, SE Michigan, or Central Michigan. We feel closer to Saginaw and Lansing than anything else. I'd recommend you call the region I created (and possibly limit to half the areas of Shiawasse, Lapeer, and Saginaw Cos., and all of Genesee Co.) as "Mid-Michigan". It only makes sense.

I only made changes to that map, regarding Flint. I'd suggest that Mt. Pleasant's influence extends slightly more north than on the map, and that Traverse City and East Tawas aren't so similar. - Chris5369 5:55PM (EST) 10/28/05

We are attempting to describe not create. If that is a recognized region we could use it but we cannot make up a new fact ourselves. Rmhermen 02:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
We may want to consider adding Tri-Cities of Michigan somehow.MPS 22:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Proposed new map[edit]

Lower Peninsula of Michigan map.png

I have created a new map based on the dial pages of [Michiguide] in SVG format. I feel that these regions are the most accurate. Nobody will ever totally agree on what county or city belongs in what region, but this looks like the best compromise. MonkeyWrench32 08:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea to break it out by county. You could also use cross hatching for counties that are borderline or that have a sub-region (for example, Huron County, Michigan + Sanilac County, Michigan = "The Thumb" might have diagonal lines but be the same color as Flint Tri-Cities) and you could have a small label or legend on the map that indicates the meaning of the cross-hatch style. MPS 19:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this map is a good compromise. I also think it gets West Michigan right, since that region doesn't generally extend as far north as Ludington or Manistee (such as on the old map). I also think that there should be a mention of the tension zone somewhere on this page. This is a line that roughly extends from Manistee to Bay City and is well-known by geographers across the nation as a distinct geological and vegetational boundary, where the sandy soils and sub-boreal vegetation found in the north meet the southern vegetation in the south. The existence of this boundary effectively determined settlement patterns in the state, and it might be worth mentioning here.triphook 18:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I like the map; I'm putting it in. Funnyhat 02:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I uploaded it onto Commons as commons:Image:Lower Peninsula of Michigan map.png. Yassie 01:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Nice map. However, it should still reflect "The Thumb" and "Southern Michigan" regions. Ask anyone in Bad Axe if they are in the "Flint/Tri-Cities" area. They will say, no, we are in "The Thumb". Similarly, Coldwater is thought of as being in "Southern Michigan", not "Mid-Michigan".TRosenbaum 04:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Regions of Lower Michigan[edit]

I find this conversation very interesting... For the Flint/Tri-Cities area, I would prefer to see Huron, Tuscola, and Sanilac counties renamed (The Thumb) as there is an article on that term. Secondly, Saginaw, Bay and Midland Counties should be regionalized as the Tri-Cities Region. I will be posting my recommendation in image format. -- Jon Talk | Message.

  • I agree. In my opinion (not necessarily that of everyone) "The Thumb" is a region of Michigan and should be on the map. What about the "Upper Peninsula" region eh? TRosenbaum 05:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Are Regional "Probability" Definitions/Maps In Order?[edit]

I don't think agreement on absolute regional boundaries is possible without a strict definition of "region". The concept of region is ambiguous -- it means different things to different people. Have a look at how the ambiguous regional boundary issue was resolved for the "Northwest Ohio" region. The text lists counties that "are or may be" classified as part of the region. The map uses different colors showing counties that are included in the region "always", "most of the time", and "least". The Northwest Ohio region article even says "Just like any other region, there is no universally agreed-upon line for northwestern Ohio, as the entire area is defined differently by the opinions of multiple people." If we did something similar for Michigan, then we could argue about which category or degree each city/county belongs in instead of whether or not a city belongs in a region at all :) The "regional fuzziness" disclaimer might be helpful too -- at least it acknowledges that the regional boundaries are different for different observers. A con is that this would require a different map for each region (to show probability of inclusion in region) TRosenbaum 05:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


Residents of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan are called "Trolls" by residents of the Upper Peninsula.

This is a reference to the LP being directly south of, or under, the Mackinac Bridge; and the Norwegian fairy tale, Three Billy Goats Gruff, in which one of the characters is a Troll who lives under a bridge.

The article should be edited to include this humorous nickname for residents of the LP. (talk) 15:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

A verifiable source is needed to include this topic. A work of fiction, ie. the book "A Thousand Bones", is not a source of fact. Bamyers99 (talk) 02:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
No, common knowledge does not require sources. Rmhermen (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't believe this falls under common knowledge. I don't think that more than a very small percentage of English speakers will know about this term. See Wikipedia:Common knowledge 'When to seek professional help' section, 'Indirect knowledge' sub-section, Wikipedia:Verifiability. Bamyers99 (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
While I'm not sure it qualifies as "common knowledge", it is in my opinion well-established usage and the reference to its usage in a work of fiction is a good indication of the conventionality of the usage. olderwiser 17:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Dubious peninsularity[edit]

Peninsulas are delimited by seas and lakes. Rivers are not wide enough to delimit peninsulas, except at a micro scale. So a short bend in the River Thames can delimit the Greenwich Peninsula, which is similar in width to the river; but the huge Ordos Loop in the Yellow River does not delimit a peninsula. South of Lake Huron, the eastern "shore" of the Lower Peninsula is delimited in part by the St. Clair River and Detroit River; being rivers rather than lakes, they are not wide enough to provide a contiguity of surrounding water down to the Ohio border. Thus in physical geography, most of Southeast Michigan is not part of any peninsula. I am sure that I am not the first to pick this particular nit; perhaps it is worth mentioning in the article. jnestorius(talk) 19:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here, about the other peninsula: Talk:Upper Peninsula of Michigan/Archive 3#It doesn't meet the normal definition of a peninsula. Chris857 (talk) 20:24, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
"Rivers are not wide enough to delimit peninsulas, except at a micro scale." - sez you. Now let's see a reference. Any scholarly source that says the LP is not a peninsula. Rmhermen (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm. Let me elaborate on my previous statement: "I am sure that I am not the first to pick this particular nit". I imagine scholars have better things to do with their time, but maybe a Yooper journalist engaging in banter might claim that the Lower Peninsula was Not Even a Real Peninsula. Perhaps a Michigan-based Wikipedian might remember such an instance, and not feel they were slighting their great state by citing it. As to the definition of peninsula: dictionaries differ; some say land "projecting into a body of water", others land "surrounded by water". Perhaps a linguistics monograph on vagueness might use "peninsula" as an example; I can't see geographers getting worked up about fine-tuning a definition. I've just discovered the designation "Niagara Peninsula", which is even more dubious. It would be interesting WP:OR to look at other chains of lakes, in places like Minnesota or Finland, and see whether "peninsula" was used with respect to areas partly delimited by rivers. My hypothesis is that the likelihood of such a designation is greater:
  • where rivers (as opposed to lakes/seas) make up a smaller fraction of the total delimitation
  • where a significant political boundary coincided with the delimitation.
Otherwise salient or panhandle is the term. jnestorius(talk) 12:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
This page is for improvements to the article, not for Original Research or general discussion. Without you providing us some references, there is no point to this. Rmhermen (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
My core question was: "has there ever been debate about the peninsularity of LP?" I don't know the answer. It would seem that responders have never heard of any such debate. Fair enough; if that's the case, there let it rest, at least until someone shows up who has heard of such a debate. jnestorius(talk) 20:29, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Even if the rivers in the SE corner weren't counted, the LP indisputably extends into Lake Michigan-Huron as a peninsula. The question is pointless. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTLEX we are not dictionary writers. (1) What do reliable sources say about what a peninsula is? (2) does anyone have any doubt that "Upper Peninsula" and "Lower Peninsula" are correct terms w.r.t. defining Michigan geography? I tend think "dubious peninsularity" is a non-issue that has no bearing on this article. Peace, MPS (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

How big is the Lower Peninsula?[edit]

The article mentions that it "contains nearly two-thirds of Michigan's total land area" but doesn't say what the total land area of the Lower Peninsula is. Does anyone know? It's useful to know the precise number for comparison sake. Thomas144 (talk) 19:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

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Economy section[edit]

I don't think that an "economy" section makes sense in this article. Most of the information in it is either about the state as a whole (e.g. every paragraph that begins "Michigan"), or focuses on only part of the LP (the sections about the automotive industry or Southeast-Michigan-based businesses). The Lower Peninsula simply isn't a distinct and cohesive economic (or cultural) entity in the way that the Upper Peninsula is. It's a geographic entity, and this article should stick to that. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:03, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

The section appears to be an old copy-paste from Michigan#Economy, which isn't being updated here, making it an unhelpful fork. I'm removing it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 16:39, 5 October 2016 (UTC)