Talk:Lucifer

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Query about relevance of a remark on the devil[edit]

If the name "Lucifer" came into use for the Devil only some time after the writing of the Vulgate Latin translation of the Bible, and was thus not used by Origen, Tertullian and Augustine, is the information about the motives that Origen, Tertullian and Augustine attributed to "the Devil" for rebelling against God relevant as a section in the article about "Lucifer"? Would the account of Martin Luther throwing the inkwell at "the Devil" be relevant too? Would a mention of Acts 13:10, where Paul called Elymas a son of "the devil" be relevant? Or a mention of John 8:44, where Jesus himself said some Jews had "the devil" as their father? Including any of these seems to be a synthesizing of the proposition "this is about the devil" with the proposition "Lucifer is the devil", to produce the conclusion "this is about Lucifer". Isn't such synthesizing unacceptable in Wikipedia? Esoglou (talk) 15:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Almost the entire article is based on the conceptual distinction between the devil before and after the fall, i.e. the difference between Satan and Lucifer. These three authors before the coinage of the word "Lucifer" have provided two versions about the reason for this fall. Does it look to you an irrelevant information or without it is missing a fundamental point of this article?
M.L. --95.252.136.142 (talk) 16:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

Doesn't this show that, even after "the coinage of the word 'Lucifer'", there is no need to mention Lucifer in talking of the fall of the "fallen angel, called 'Satan' or the 'devil'", and that there are no grounds for claiming that the "Lucifer" article is the one into which one must put information such as the remark you want to insert or, for that matter, the statement in the CCC? The argument, "These three authors before the coinage of the word 'Lucifer' have provided two versions about the reason for this fall", smells strongly of WP:SYNTH. Esoglou (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
[1] & [2]. What do you think of these two Vatican official sources? Are even these not sufficiently clear and unambiguous?
M.L. --87.3.68.235 (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I think these two 19th-century sources could be cited somewhere in the Lucifer article without having in any way to resort to synthesis. Esoglou (talk) 06:37, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Quello che chiedi si trova in un articolo di Communio: troppi numeri pubblicati per poterlo ritrovare su cartaceo, scarsamente digilitalizzato e quindi irrecuperabile online pure sull'ACNP. In subordine, una ricerca su Google Libri fornisce una settantina di risultati: alcuni non pertinenti, altri solo in visualizzazione snippet, altri ancora che insisterai a giudicare poco rilevanti quanto un'enciclica papale: [3], [4], [5]. Non condivido il tuo modo di fare di tutt'un'erba un fascio: gl'autori citati cristiani a quale confessione appartengono? Mi pare quantomeno ovvio trovare delle discrepanze fra la demonologia cattolica e quella protestante/riformata, ortodossa, anglicana, ecc. Il tuo giustapporli così banalmente mi sembra di scarso rigore scientifico.
"Recentemente hai viaggiato un po'". No, è che quando vado a letto spengo il router assieme al pc, e quando lo riavvio il gestore m'assegna un nuovo IP (appunto dinamico). Il range/intervallo oscilla fra >70-xxx e <100-xxx. Al Santuario non torno più dopo avervi visto questi: degl'angeli (?) neri che m'hanno suscitato un senso d'angoscia e oppressione che ritengo anti-"evangelizzatorio".
M.L. -79.2.235.80 (talk) 18:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Quando il mio IP cambia, rimane immutata l'indicazione geografica. Se ho capito bene, a te non succede così. Confesso di non capire l'accenno agli "angeli (?) neri". Ma non è questo il luogo adatto per conversare di cose simili. While we can discuss other matters on our own talk pages in whatever language we choose, here we should, for the sake of other editors, talk about the article and do so in English. You say that Google Books provides sources for (the equivalents in Italian of) Lucifer+envy+jealousy+God+man. So what? In the Lucifer article we can and should use reliable sources that speak of Lucifer. What I am questioning is the use here of sources that do not speak of Lucifer. You have also questioned above the use of sources from a variety of Christian confessions. I don't see what that has to do with the question of the relevance to an article on Lucifer of sources of any provenance whatever that do not speak of Lucifer. Esoglou (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
1) I thought only evil angels were depicted black. 2) Here I have provided you at least one source that talks exclusively about the connection between Lucifer, envy, jealousy, God, mankind, Tertullian and Augustine. Did you notice? 3) If the oppositions on the exegesis of the serpent (Lucifer or non Lucifer) come from authors of different Christian confessions, this fact is of the utmost relevance.
M.L. --79.23.64.42 (talk) 21:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Point 2 is the only one about this discussion. Sources that speak of Lucifer, envy, jealousy, God, mankind, Tertullian and Augustine can be used in the Lucifer article, but not sources that do not mention Lucifer. (Point 1 is not about the Lucifer article and would be appropriate only for our personal talk pages; and point 3 is not about the matter discussed in this section; so, if you wish, start another section for it.)
Now that you have provided the section of the article we are discussing with reliable sources about Lucifer, I have removed the irrelevance tag. The section is no longer irrelevant to the article. I have also removed from the part speaking of Lucifer the reference to the self-published commentary by Ron Corson, who says there is no such person as Lucifer, but I have left it as a sort of appendix for what he says about Tertullian giving jealousy as the reason for the fall of the Devil. Leo XIII's 1888 encyclical says nothing about Lucifer's motives and must be removed also. Nicolas of Dijon apparently treated "envious" and "jealous" as synonyms. Perhaps he was right. Esoglou (talk) 08:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Finché non troverò, e ormai sono mesi, nessun altro interlocutore a parte te per questa voce, come fosse considerata una scemenza, continuerò a scrivere in italiano. O forse nemmeno: questa mattina mi si è bruciato il monitor, ti sto scrivendo da un portatile di fortuna e non so se e quando potrò tornare a collaborare. Non capisco perché insisti nel cancellare la parola peccato/sin: è un peccato parlare di "peccato di superbia e/o invidia e/o gelosia"? Lucifero è stato precipitato per un peccato di disobbedienza e/o ribellione, e le fonti lo chiamano così. Termino more or less provvisoriamente facendoti sapere che non esiste un dialetto marchigiano, qui il dialetto già cambia a ogni quartiere della città, peggio ancora per chi, come me, ha studiato "fuori sede" (Roma, Perugia, Padova) ed è un ibrido a parte (see idiolect). T'auguro buona prosecuzione "in solitaria". Ciao. Mauro. --79.3.37.227 (talk) 08:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Dimenticavo: ma tu hai mai studiato demonologia? Il peccato del diavolo è eo ipso il peccato di Lucifero, non ce ne sono altri e le traduzioni delle encicliche papali non sono certo sbagliate. Tutti gli angeli precipitati sono, per la tradizione cattolica, le "schiere o milizie di Lucifero", al che la tua ossessiva distinzione fra Diavolo e Lucifero lascia il tempo che trova. Peggio pure con Satana: per i cristiani è Il Precipitato, ma per il libro di Giobbe un suo ministro obbediente. --79.3.37.227 (talk) 08:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
You object to the removal of "the sin of" on the grounds that it was because of Satan/Lucifer's sin that he was cast down. Pride or envy/jealousy was what the cited writers gave as his motive for rebelling/falling. The sinfulness of his action wasn't his motive but instead, as you yourself say, that aspect of his action because of which he was cast down. You are quite right to suggest that this should be made clearer. Esoglou (talk) 16:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Your considerations are OR. Sources say "Lucifer's sin" and our/your reasoning here on Pedia worth zero. Here we are allowed only to quote them, nothing else and nothing more. --87.20.66.66 (talk) 06:40, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What the cited sources say: "As for the specific reasons for Lucifer's fall, some patristic writers suggested pride, others envy"; "The majority view ... held that Lucifer's sin was pride (superbia) ... The minority view ... held that Lucifer's sin was envy (inuidia), more specifically envy of humanity ..."; "... allorchè parlarono della natura del peccato del primo Angelo ... una lussuria spirituale ... un'avarizia spirituale ... una superbia, che gli fece desiderare di rendersi simile a Dio, e di salire il suo Trono ... Per me ... un peccato d'invidia ... La sua superbia lo rendè invidioso contro il suo superiore, cioè contro Dio ..." Esoglou (talk) 06:44, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Now that, I think by some miracle, I managed to make you understand the importance of this point, do the pleasure of mentioning it at the end of the lead. Otherwise I will by myself. --87.20.66.66 (talk) 08:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Here it is[edit]

"3) If the oppositions on the exegesis of the serpent (Lucifer or non Lucifer) come from authors of different Christian confessions, this fact is of the utmost relevance. -M.L."

"Point 3 is not about the matter discussed in this section; so, if you wish, start another section for it. -Esoglou"
It's up to you. M.L. --95.232.16.89 (talk) 08:44, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The tag placed on the section "Serpent of Genesis 3" ("The material near this tag may contain information irrelevant to the article's main topic") directs here for discussion. One could well argue on other grounds that the section does contain information irrelevant to the article's main topic, but it is hard to see what the comments posted here have to do with the relevance of the section. The section is about "Christians", not about "Protestants" or "Catholics" or what have you. All the writers whom it cites seem to be Christians, whether Protestants such as Mungovan, Graham, Ansley and Milton, or Catholics such as Nowell, and there are several whose affiliation is unknown to me, but perhaps not to you, namely, Pallister, Tromp, Jonge, Luttikhuizen and Gregory. If you really want to start a separate section for each Christian confession, you have a difficult task before you. Esoglou (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Mauro, for what reason do you claim that the material concerning the Genesis 3 serpent is irrelevant to the topic Lucifer? Since all you say here is that the fact that the views are expressed by writers of different confessions is relevant, what can be the grounds of your claim that the material is irrelevant, not relevant?! The irrelevancy tag that you have restored needs to be explained. Esoglou (talk) 06:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Esoglou, if I understood correctly, but I'm not sure, above you've already done a (re)search on the Christian confession of those authors/writers. Why do not you add these relevant information in the article? Ps: conversely, why do you judge irrelevant a section on the battle between the archangel Michael and Lucifer with his troops/militia? Grateful thanks for your attention. M&L. --82.49.4.242 (talk) 08:12, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
You have tagged as irrelevant to Lucifer certain material in the article. In what way is that information about the serpent in Gen 3 irrelevant to Lucifer? That is the question here. Anything else is a red herring. I've already said that your objection about the diversity of denominations among the writers already added to the article is no argument against their relevancy. So what is your objection? Esoglou (talk) 08:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
My objection is very simple: I disagree. Would you prefer another type of tag, such as {{expand section}}? Ps: grateful thanks for your kind and utterly comprehensive reply about the section on the battle against archangel Michael. --82.49.4.242 (talk) 08:52, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The tag that you have placed and that directs here for discussion claims that the material near it is irrelevant to Lucifer. Whatever it is that you say you disagree with, you have said nothing whatever about any supposed irrelevancy of what is in that part of the article, but have instead suggested adding to what is already there ("expand section"). So the irrelevancy tag that you have placed remains undefended and must be removed. Esoglou (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Category:Supernatural (U.S. TV series) characters[edit]

On 27 October 2013, I added Category:Supernatural (U.S. TV series) characters to the bottom of this article.

On 28 October 2013, Jgstokes undid my edit on the grounds that the category was added “without explanation.”

On 29 October 2013, I re-added Category:Supernatural (U.S. TV series) characters to the bottom of this article, including the following description:

Added Category:Supernatural (U.S. TV series) characters since Lucifer was an important character in multiple seasons of Supernatural and was the primary antagonist throughout season five.

About an hour and a half later, Jgstokes again undid my edit, this time on these grounds:

Undid revision 579232244 by allixpeeke (talk). Your explanation is not sufficient. First you must prove that the Lucifer in this series is the same Lucifer this article is about.

In an effort to ensure that this does not devolve into an edit war, I’m including my explanation here for review.

First, as I said, Lucifer is a pivotal character in the show Supernatural.  But, this isn’t just any ol’ entity named “Lucifer” this is the same Lucifer described in this article.

  1. The Lucifer in the series is an archangel who rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven by his brother, Michael.  This article is about the same Lucifer who battled Michael, as indicated by the article subsection titled “Conflicts with Archangel Michael.”
  2. In the series, Lucifer is essentially what most would describe as a “fallen angel.”  In the introduction to this article, it reads, “[T]he form of Judaism witnessed to in 1 Enoch and 2 Enoch…gave Satan an expanded role, interpreting Isaiah 14:12-15, with its reference to the morning star, as applicable to him, and presenting him as a fallen angel cast out of heaven for refusing, according to Jewish writings, to bow to Adam, of whom Satan was envious and jealous.”
  3. In the series, Lucifer began as God’s most-beloved creation.  After the creation of humanity, Lucifer rebelled against God because he was jealous of the love God bestowed upon humanity, and incensed that God had commanded that humanity be loved above all, despite the flaws thereof.  In the “Motives of rebellion” subsection of this article, it reads, “As Lucifer’s or Satan’s motive for rebelling…, Christian writers mention…envy of humanity.”
  4. In the series, Lucifer is described as the light-bringer and the Morning Star.  In fact, when he escapes from his cage in Hell, a blinding light is emanated.  Moreover, when Lucifer possesses a human vessel, his internal glow is so strong that it begins burning the skin of his human vessel.  Or, as the very first paragraph of this article reads,
Lucifer…is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12.  This word…occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means “shining one, morning star, Lucifer”.  The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate…meaning “the morning star, the planet Venus”, or, as an adjective, “light-bringing”.  The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος…, a name, literally “bringer of dawn”, for the morning star.

In summation, the notable character in the series Supernatural named Lucifer is the same Lucifer as described in this article.  There’s really no ambiguity.

If there are no further objections in the coming week, I will then re-add the category to the bottom of the article.

Best regards,
allixpeeke (talk) 21:51, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations for bringing the question for discussion here rather than edit-warring. You deserve commendation. I think it is best to give Jgstokes a chance to reply before making any substantial comment myself. Esoglou (talk) 07:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Angel Heart (1987): "Cast. * Robert De Niro as Louis Cyphre" redirects here. I don't understand why the article mentions only Dante and Milton as examples of Lucifer in art. M.L. --79.23.173.163 (talk) 13:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, allixpeeke. That was all I was looking for, an explanation. Now that you have explained your edit, I have no objections to re-adding the category. Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Cool.  I took the liberty of re-adding it.  I’m happy this resolved both quickly and amiably.  Cheers, allixpeeke (talk) 18:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Angel Heart[edit]

Angel Heart (1987): "Cast. * Robert De Niro as Louis Cyphre" redirects here. I don't understand why the article mentions only Dante and Milton as examples of Lucifer in art. M.L. --79.23.173.163 (talk) 13:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an answer. Thanks. M.L. --95.250.34.95 (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2013 (UTC)